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Sorcerer Changes Brainstorming


EricMusco

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It is a joke to exclude madness, based on what I believe is the status quo change you did to dots.That change affects no one other than other sorcs.

 

Are you even playing your own game? 90 % of all healers in solo Arena and 99,9 % in team Arena are operatives. Perhaps you should start by asking yourself why and think two steps ahead as to why a change to sorc dots is useless.

 

And since I cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would play lightning when a MM sniper is ten times better I'm just going to focus on Madness regardless of it being excluded.

 

*Madness needs better force management.

*All specs need egress as baseline

*All specs need to be able to cleanse all forms of roots

*All specs need a 30m stun range, instant WW and a 360 KB.

*All specs need a KB that sends the enemies flying twice as far as now and/or root.

*Madness need a finisher or a specced abiltity that makes shock work as a finisher

*Deathfield is still significally weaker than other hard hitting abilties in the game

*Madness selfheals are useless

*All specs need a rollback on armor rating (just what were you thinking? At what point did someone say that sorcs could withstand too much damage?????)

*Madness need shorter duration on the dots, while maintaining the same overall damage.. 18 seconds, seriously? We die in 3 GCD'es but you give us an ability that last for 12.

*Corruption need a shorter CD on Innervate and the HoT to keep us on par with operatives, who you for one or another reason refuse to nerf despite that it takes about two seconds for new players to realize that something is seriously wrong.

 

You could implement all those changes and it still wouldnt be easy for the average sorc to face average marauders, PT hybrids and deception sins. In no way would it make the class OP.

 

Feel free to pull up the stats on my sorcs and sages and compare 8 vs 8 to Arena. It's the same players I'm playing but without seven team mates there's no way of slipping under the radar. I also want to thank you for allowing us to tag players before the Arena matches start. You know, so they know from start who to burn down before and after barrier, give or take 12 seconds into the match.

Edited by MidichIorian
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holy mother of god laforet. I actually read your whole post and you are spot on. The marking with a flame to keep him on fire and YOLO made me lol

 

That's exactly the issue though...it's obvious they based corruption off disc priests but left out all the tools that made disc priests viable and have synergy with other classes.

 

They lack vision.

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Have the devs watch mudclot's stream tonight. We will be running jugg tank, op heals, lightning sorc, arsenal merc.

 

You guys will be able to see how much we have to support each other in order to cast and kill against the good teams.

 

Having a blink and casting on the move will make perfect sense. While we're at it, add a disengage for mercs. We have a jetpack.

 

If they watch this stream lightning and arsenal will not be getting a buff.

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I'm impressed with the thought and time behind some of these posts. Obviously the few remaining pvp sorcs have been thinking these things over.

 

I totally agree. Some great stuff here on details.

 

I just hope that BW is going to listen this time. Our 100 page / 1000 post thread from the REP debacle didn't seem to get any resolution. I still think the metrics guy in the back room has a broken calculator or has his weighted formulas on utility all wrong. Clearly he/she should PLAY the game more in the class.

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sweet god believer...brb while i read that.

 

in the meantime tho

 

madness: better force regen is PRIORITY NUMBER ONE. BIGGEST ISSUE. madness sorcs need 1 maybe even 2 regen mechanics, as spamming FL is not cutting it. im thinking either every dot crit OR every dot that consumes death mark regens 1-2% of total force. another suggestion is every time you consume a wrath proc with crushing darkness or lightning strike you get some force back. there can be discrepancies between how much force you get for each.

 

lightning: absolutely no actual raw damage buffs please. these are not what we need. we need QoL adjustments to make up for our basic awful design. bc what it is, is: the squishiest class in the game in a turret spec that needs to kite to survive, but cast to do damage. so im thinking some stuff here. you could give us a talent that reduces the active cd of polarity shift by x seconds everytime you use lightning strike. you could also make polarity shift make lightnign strike castable while moving. or just let us cast LS while moving by nature.

 

ill edit my healing suggestions in later, but i think that sorc needs some stuff baseline. knockback root on overload, FADEOUT, and bubble blind would be excellent baseline talents. would help all sorcs. however, i think that the one change that could address most of sorcs defensive issues would be just making force shroud inquisitor baseline, rather than just sin baseline.

 

edit: so believer is 100% spot on. those changes would be amazing. i just highly doubt that the dev team has the skill to program those skills, especially mind control, into the game.

 

hes completely correct on everything that corruption lacks. again, a spec that relies on casting spells has no place being the spec that needs to kite the most. some improvements i like would be to:

 

drop the health loss on consumption, completely. or, id settle for not losing health when consuming force surge charges

 

since innervate is our only good heal, make it a 5s cd (or at least make it so the pve set bonus makes it a 5s cd) and make it castable on the move, or uninterruptable, or both

 

make revivification either reduce all damage taken by friendlies in the puddle, or reduce damage dealt by enemies in the bubble. i like #1 more since #2 hurts melee and not really ranged.

 

anyways i like believers changes more but i doubt the devs will implement those. in fact i dont really see sorcs getting any real love bc the dev team is so entrenched into their beliefs on the class that they understand minimally, and refuse to listen to the people that actually know about it

Edited by OldSpiceSwag
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Sorcerer / Sage

 

When we are focused in an arenas we are automatically forced to use our force barrier far too soon in the match. We need Some sort of CD/Ability that allows us to insta cast our big heals on the move, a bit like the mercs power surge ability and allow a 25%- 50% damage reduction while this ability is active. This would prove an invaluable escape tool. I understand people will say that Unnatural Preservation is your instant heal, but frankly in the arena environment it isn't good enough.

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Force Barrier is no longer a channeled ability and we can cast and move.

 

We can CAST / MOVE / HEAL while it's up for it's 10 seconds (Just NOT able to carry huttball). Goodbye PESKY Smash Monkey... Want to wait for my bubble, no problem. Let me get you something ready for you. LOL

 

PVE and PVP implications. Can't be interrupted and can't be damaged. Great for MANY fights.

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If they watch this stream lightning and arsenal will not be getting a buff.

 

We don't need help with our killing power. There's no way the devs will expect every sorc to have access to teammates like that.

 

Besides, a new meta will come about if ranged starts to dominate. People have barely attempted to make comps that stomp on ranged teams.

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Well I play madness mostly, and can tell you that without the buffed force speed that corruption has, I need to face tank double AP/smash teams that have me slowed constantly. People say madness is easier to kite than lightning, when really it's harder. But for arguments sake lets say this lightning sorc wanted to do damage while he was fightning for his/her life. With little instant attacks lightning is screwed. Because of this when force speed is activated lightning should get an automatic crit chance on all instant moves for the duration of force speed or maybe an instant crushing darkness, auto crit on shock, ... or something along those lines. I think madness and corruption should also get debuffs to breaks on static barrier. I think it should result in a slow or slight accuracy loss. Also I know we're not supposed to talk about madness, but right now lightning can do more group damage than madness(mostly in 8v8s, but with these triple melee arena teams it's somewhat true for arenas). This is somewhat in part to madness not having enough force to use force storm ever, but chain lightning does more damage than death field. Not saying it's not easier to use death field, but still on a non crit I'm hitting 2k. If death field could get a periodic effect lasting in the area it was placed for 3-4 seconds after it hits then i can face tank for a bit. Or a 20% stronger force storm, better force management, dots don't break cc, or something. To save all specs completely I think whirlwind has to be instant class wide. ARENAS ARE ALL ABOUT CC. This is a known fact and right now sorcs have little cc in lightning and pretty much none in the other specs. Edited by SEANeD
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sweet god believer...brb while i read that.

 

in the meantime tho

 

madness: better force regen is PRIORITY NUMBER ONE. BIGGEST ISSUE. madness sorcs need 1 maybe even 2 regen mechanics, as spamming FL is not cutting it. im thinking either every dot crit OR every dot that consumes death mark regens 1-2% of total force. another suggestion is every time you consume a wrath proc with crushing darkness or lightning strike you get some force back. there can be discrepancies between how much force you get for each.

 

lightning: absolutely no actual raw damage buffs please. these are not what we need. we need QoL adjustments to make up for our basic awful design. bc what it is, is: the squishiest class in the game in a turret spec that needs to kite to survive, but cast to do damage. so im thinking some stuff here. you could give us a talent that reduces the active cd of polarity shift by x seconds everytime you use lightning strike. you could also make polarity shift make lightnign strike castable while moving. or just let us cast LS while moving by nature.

 

ill edit my healing suggestions in later, but i think that sorc needs some stuff baseline. knockback root on overload, FADEOUT, and bubble blind would be excellent baseline talents. would help all sorcs. however, i think that the one change that could address most of sorcs defensive issues would be just making force shroud inquisitor baseline, rather than just sin baseline.

 

edit: so believer is 100% spot on. those changes would be amazing. i just highly doubt that the dev team has the skill to program those skills, especially mind control, into the game.

 

hes completely correct on everything that corruption lacks. again, a spec that relies on casting spells has no place being the spec that needs to kite the most. some improvements i like would be to:

 

drop the health loss on consumption, completely. or, id settle for not losing health when consuming force surge charges

 

since innervate is our only good heal, make it a 5s cd (or at least make it so the pve set bonus makes it a 5s cd) and make it castable on the move, or uninterruptable, or both

 

make revivification either reduce all damage taken by friendlies in the puddle, or reduce damage dealt by enemies in the bubble. i like #1 more since #2 hurts melee and not really ranged.

 

anyways i like believers changes more but i doubt the devs will implement those. in fact i dont really see sorcs getting any real love bc the dev team is so entrenched into their beliefs on the class that they understand minimally, and refuse to listen to the people that actually know about it

 

Devs if you skipped this one or didn't read carefully i'm just going to quote it so you can read it again. I would also like to add consumption should be off gcd

Edited by SEANeD
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Sorry to go 3 posts in a row, but if you want sorcs to be better, compare them carefully(utility, overall damage capability, survivability, etc) to snipers and operatives. I'm not saying sorcs should be the same as snipers, but the pros of playing a sorc should be reasonable with the cons of playing it.
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Current status of Lightning Sorcs in PvP:

 

  • Most abilities have channeling times which means we can't go anywhere while we're attacking. We're essentially turrets.
  • We're exclusively a ranged class and our survivability is based on us keeping that range.
  • Our escape abilities render us unable to attack and in the case of the barrier, unable to move to safety.
  • We're a very weak armor class which means we're highly breakable turrets (not something deployed by any sane military in the world today)
  • None of our abilities are so strong as to justify our lack of mobility or our weakness.

 

We either need to be stronger and have more endurance to attacks (not really in keeping with the 'theme' of a sorc).

Or we need powers that have enough umph to do real damage even if we only ever manage to get one shot off.

Or we need to be able to escape more effectively to live to fight another day (movable barrier, or uninterruptible force speed).

 

Also giving us a survivability trait such as the force barrier and then allowing Troopers to be able to block it with their electro snare thingy wasn't a great move.

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lightning: absolutely no actual raw damage buffs please. these are not what we need. we need QoL adjustments to make up for our basic awful design. bc what it is, is: the squishiest class in the game in a turret spec that needs to kite to survive, but cast to do damage. so im thinking some stuff here. you could give us a talent that reduces the active cd of polarity shift by x seconds everytime you use lightning strike. you could also make polarity shift make lightnign strike castable while moving. or just let us cast LS while moving by nature.

 

Forked lighting and Forked darkness procs do reduce the active CD of polarity shift by 1 second. But yea, it would be a better QoL if lighting strike reduced the CD or also reduced it.

 

nah it only goes on 9 sec cooldown if it does damage. otherwise it's whatever the interrupt is for, usually 4 secs. being immune to interrupts would make lightning way too op

 

Interrupt immunity would only apply to thundering blast to make it usable while under attack. There are still other ways to stop it or delay it. Combine those with interrupts and it can be near impossible to get off a thundering blast. It's usually why people hybrid into madness to get death field.

 

And since it has a 2 second activation time, it actually hits roughly every 11 seconds. It can also be pretty easy to LoS thundering blast while it is being activated.

 

While thundering blast is being activated, plenty of other classes could have popped off two attacks in that time frame.

 

It would still be possible to interrupt lighting strike which is the main filler for lightning sorcerers.

 

I'm just not as convinced it would make lightning OP and may be worth testing. Preferably on the PTS before going live because if it turns out to be OP, then we have a problem for months on end.

Edited by Dedrayge
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Help with Force Regen for Healing Spec...

 

Each STACK of Force Surge | Resplendence provides a 1% BUFF to Alacrity while you have it up and unused.

 

This would amount to a MAX 3% Alacrity bump if you don't use the stacks for AOE Healing or Consumption. (Buff is removed once stacks are used or gone)

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Some options for sorc healers, all of these together would make them a bit OP so mix and match a bit.

 

Cast an ability on a target and if it hits someone within a certain period it heals whoever they hit. (Treek has this)

Possibly have if it hits you remove the deionized debuff (So you can bubble yourself again), can not occur more than once every 10 seconds.

 

Another option would be to make dark heal (the small heal) instant cast for those in the corruption tree.

Have Revivification automatically apply static barrier for targets below 35% when healed although this might be a bit OP in PvE.

 

Hostile targets that enter the revivification aoe become snared.

Static barrier applies a hot for those in the corruption tree. Possibly have it persist after bubbles popped or explode in a final larger heal if the targets below 30% health.

Static barrier, if applied to yourself cleanses dots off yourself when it pops. (think evasion)

 

Take static barrier off GCD.

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I am a Sorc Healer, and when I do DPS I 99% of the time do it as Lightning because I prefer the way it plays over the way Madness plays. I also don't expect that we will see half of the changes I propose.

 

Force Usage

As far as I am concerned Madness should use a little bit less Force, Corruption should use 25-35% less Force and Lightning should use a little more Force. As we don't have anyway to rebuild our Force without a. spending Hit Points, b. running up far closer than we should be and swinging our Lightsaber almost uselessly ensuring a far quicker death than using Consumption., this would balance out our Force usage across all specs and should be considered reasonable to other classes as well.

 

Force Regen

Remove the Force Regen cost of using Consumption or reduce the amount of health it costs. It currently has far too much negative impact and quite honestly I have yet to see a single Static Barrier remove the debuff from me. Maybe change that so that Static Barrier and Force Barrier double our Force Regen?

 

Dark Heal and Dark Infusion /U]

Dark Heal is completely useless, granted it has a shorter Cast Time than Dark Infusion but it's Force Cost is higher, and it heals for less. Wait let me reread that. Yeah that's dumb. Reduce the Force Cost of Dark Heal by 33% so that it would be come a viable heal please. Dark Infusion is actually a heal that I prefer not to use but will use during heavy damage phases of fights. Where as Dark heal is the first ability that I will push onto my spare Clicky Quickbar if I need room for more useful abilities.

 

Interrupts

We are far too susceptible to interruption. I think that Interrupts should also add to the Resolve Bar, and be included in Resolve Immunity. In addition to Resolve being Reworked so that it lasts longer and takes less to build up, and doesn't start counting down until you regain control of your character, interrupts would be the only reason that it would start counting down immediately.

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Help with Force Regen for Healing Spec...

 

Each STACK of Force Surge | Resplendence provides a 1% BUFF to Alacrity while you have it up and unused.

 

This would amount to a MAX 3% Alacrity bump if you don't use the stacks for AOE Healing or Consumption. (Buff is removed once stacks are used or gone)

 

I like that idea, but I fear most Sorcs would never realize it was there b/c as soon as they have 3 Stacks they toss down a Puddle, normally at their feet.

Edited by SuperGrunt
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A lot of good ideas coming out here. I'm going to focus my suggestions from a PvE perspective as ideas to help improve Sorcerers’ overall DPS performance in operations. The goal should be to make Sorcerers as desirable as Snipers, Marauders, and Mercenaries when DPSing. (Which is currently not the case.) I'm not necessarily advocating all these suggestions at once, but merely as ideas to toss into the hat for ways to improve Sorcerer's DPS and sustainability in PvE.

 

Sustainability Suggestions:

 

- Improve the activation animation of Force Barrier and make sure any abilities that are targeted on you while in barrier still activate.

 

Force Barrier is nice in theory, but the 3 minute cooldown is forever in a boss fight, the animation is extremely slow to be used as an “oh-crap” ability, and in certain fights, using Force Barrier essentially takes you out of the fight and messes up a mechanic that would normally kill you. Example: during the Dead Master Brontus fight, if you try to Force Barrier a lightning ball attached to you, it will detach from you and go to someone else rather than exploding on you and doing no damage. This does your group no good and will often wipe the person the ball decided to switch to after you used Force Barrier.

 

- Reduce the cooldown of force barrier to 2 minutes instead of 3. This will give Sorcerers' best defense ability the same cooldown as an Operative’s cloaking screen (non-concealment) and the Assassin’s vanish ability. Both of which are the primary defensive ability of those classes, especially in PvP.

 

- Reduce the debuff on Static Barrier to 15 seconds to allow more frequent bubbling. Force cost will be the primary counterbalance which is already in place.

 

- Change the talent “Sith Defiance” to increase damage reduction by [3 / 6]% , which is increased from the current [1 / 2]%. This will scale the classes damage reduction talent to be more in line with the armoring being worn. Sith defiance for light armor Sorcs at [3/6]%. Chem-Resistant inlays for medium armor operatives at [2/4%] and Power Armor for heavy armor powertechs at [1/ 2]%

 

- Reduce the cooldown of self heal to 20 seconds, up from the current CD of 30 seconds.

 

Damage (General):

 

- Change the talent “Electric Induction” to increase the accuracy gain to [2 / 3 / 4]%. This will hopefully allow DPS sorcs to take fewer accuracy enhancements, thus allowing for other stats and more DPS.

 

- Change the talent “Will of Sith” to increase willpower by [3 / 6 / 9]% similar to other gains found in the Operative and Mercenary trees.

 

Damage (Madness):

 

- Change the “Lightning Burns” talent: Damage dealt by Force Lightning is increased by [1 / 2 / 3]%, has a [10 / 20]% chance and damage dealt by Lightning Strike has a [30 / 60]% chance to apply Lightning Burns to the target, which deals 106 energy damage after 1 second. Damage dealt by Lightning Burns restores [4 / 6] Force. This change will help increase damage and grant improved force regen.

 

- Remove the “Surging Speed” and “Shapeless Spirit” talents and replace it with something else. I don’t know why 2 / 3 of the second highest tier of talents in the madness tree does not increase the overall effectiveness of the tree (damage dealing) when nearly every other spec and every other tree in the game does. These talents could be replaced with significantly more useful ones (such as the idea below: )

 

- Do not implement the change to have "Devour" make your damage-over-time effects uncleansable. Instead, have a talent (Devour or otherwise) that leaves behind weaker versions of the DoTs similar to "Lingering Toxins" in the Lethality talent tree. These are both DoT spec classes, it seems reasonable they should behave similarly. Also, it seems unreasonable to buff one spec of a class while simultaneous nerfing the entire class' utility that would be gained by being able to cleanse force DoTs.

 

Damage (Lightning):

- Change “Thundering Blast” talent: Sends a thundering blastwave at a target that deals 2046 - 2587 internal damage. Thundering Blast automatically critically hits targets affected by your Affliction. Additionally,Thundering Blast becomes an instant cast ability when Polarity Shift is active.

 

- Change “Reverberating Force” talent: Increases the critical damage dealt by Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning and Thundering Blast by [25 / 50]%. Additionally, increases the base damage of Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning, and Thundering blast by [2 / 4]%.

Edited by sang
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Madness has two problems as far as I can see, along with general sorc issues.

 

A) Lack of ways to put pressure on enemies, especially with a healer around. Thematically I think it needs to be more complex than just increasing burst damage. (since I like the primarily dotty aspects of the spec) Making dots uncleansable is a start. How about having a talent (like one of the two high-tree ones, Shapeless Spirit and the other one) make Creeping Terror inflict a heal debuff? Need not last as long as CT itself of course, but making it lower healing done on the target would make madness sorcs slightly more useful in teams, and maybe even capable of dotting-down an enemy if the healer is sloppy. (like other, more burst-oriented classes can do)

 

Putting the heal debuff in creeping terror would be most useful, since while the skill is nice, it is so in a rather unassuming way: Not exatly a flashy skill for a tree-ender. This also has the advantage of improving the PVP aspects of ths spec without neccessarily changing much for PVE.

 

In PVE the main problem are certain burst-intensive phases (as it should be really) so I don't really see a problem there, although considering the problems madness sorcs have in terms of lack of group utility, etc. I certainly wouldn't bind a buff to raw DPS either.

 

B) General utility woes.

 

I think part of the problem is that while madness seems like a pretty mobile spec, in practice you're locked down a lot of the tim chaneling Force Lightning, since any mobility you have beyond your basic DOT's is dependant on proccing Wrath. Makin Wrath proc more predicxtable could be a solution (although you'd probably need a rate limit in that case)

 

The lack of the insta-whirlwind hurts y the way, it really does. It leaves sorcs without a reliable second CC beyond Electrocute.

 

For PVE I'd like to see the "Whirlwind affects multiple targets" to be expanded to work on at least elites (Gold Star) mobs. It's not terribly reliable anyways, as you don't have any control over who it targets, but since operations mobs are almost entirely elites, being able to lock down an extra or two would be really nice.

 

I've always wanted to do something with sorc's melee attacks (maybe have deathmark make Thrash autocrit?) just becuase it feels weird to have a lightsaber and not use it, but I realize that is mostly an aesthethic issue :p

 

EDIT: Oh, and as an alternative CC issue, how about making a Madness Force Barrier go off in a stun similar to the Static Barrier bubble once it ends? Would give people an incentive to stop just waiting for the thing to end)

Edited by Arilou_skiff
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Well it's not as if I've already given plenty of feedback especially regarding corruption sorcs and had it ignored, so there's no point in spending the next four hours repeating myself. Although it's probably safe to assume that the presence of this thread indicates the devs haven't mulliganed their answers to our class rep questions as repeatedly requested because they have no idea how, and that's a scary thought. So I think I'll do a compilation of previous feedback instead:

 

We Can't Make Them Pay Anymore--A Compilation of Sorc CC Nerfs

Fix our PVP Set Bonus | (And This Is Why It Needs Fixing)

Why I Hybrid: Full Corruption Just Can't Make Them Pay

(Correction to the above: Instant Dark Infusion proc from Force Bending reduced cast time to 1.5 seconds, not instant--but still made it much easier to get off and cast time was never rebalanced to reflect losing the proc, so basic point still stands.)

Abilities on GCD that Should Not Be, also Give DPS Fadeout and Make our Knockback Useful | More on KB

How the Bastion Debuff Nerfed Force Barrier

Any Particular Reason Why a Self-Rooting, Channeled, Non-Stealth Defensive Cooldown--the Only One We Have--is Considered a "High-Mobility Escape" by Electronet?

 

TL;DR for most of above: Stop balancing sorcs around the mythical 36/36/36 spec. Hybrids are only attractive because no pure spec has what it needs to do its job properly unless in the hands of literally the best players in the world. A class design that envisions kiting and CC for its survivability needs the tools to do that baseline.

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Lightning:

 

As a PvE lightning sorc main, the most annoying thing about the spec is pushback, especially crushing darkness and force lightning which lack the pushback resistance in the skilltree. Pushback can cause thundering blast to hit after affliction when it is still timed correctly, force lightning's last 1-2 ticks to be clipped, and crushing darkness can sometimes take upwards of 3 seconds to cast. Another outstanding issues for lightning sorcs is low defenses. Since the intended design appears to be that self healing mitigates weak passive defenses, a change to make self healing easier would be nice. Therefore, I would like to see changes something like:

 

-Subversion now grants 45% pushback resistance (max 90%) and now includes crushing darkness and force lightning in the resistance (reduces pushback further and protects from pushback on an additional 2 key abilities in the rotation)

-Something like: Conduction additionally reduces the cooldown of Unnatural Preservation by 0.5 seconds when forked lightning and forked darkness trigger. OR a change to reduce cast time on dark infusion/heal (A change like this or along similar lines would allow lighning sorcs to self heal more frequently or easily)

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