Sorcerer Changes Brainstorming

[Darth-Gorog]

The thing is they don't have to contradict each other. It's easy to create changes that have positive effects on pvp and no effects on pve. Even so there are some basic concepts that people seem to agree on.

 

As DPS the class suffers because you spend so many globals maintaining your defense (static barrier, purge, unnatrual preservation). It also is agreed upon as a whole that balancing dps survivability on "offhealing" simply does not work in pve or pvp. Dark Heal simply costs too much force for that and harms pve damage output too much. Overall there seems to be an agreement that we need either better passive survivability or a good defensive cooldown. Many of the complaints I hear about pve from a sorc perspective (mind you I am a pvper so I can't personally confirm this) is that they often are one shot from raid mechanics other classes can live through. Our only real defensive cooldown removes us from the game further harming our ability to contribute.

 

We are here to discuss both aspects of the class to improve it. Honestly we should be trying to work together

 

well yea you could do that, we have seen that with the uncleanseable dot thing, that is something that has no affect on pve what so ever, I guess some people (including myself) are worried that any update we do get will be mainly geared towards pvp, leaving us as a second rate dps in raids getting passed over for Snipers, just like some melee classes would get passed over for marauders.

 

I feel I should mention that anything that can one shot someone in a raid is generally designed to one shot everyone except maybe tanks. main problem we face is that through a combination of generally lower dps and no raid utility, which as I mention earlier is something both a marauder and a sniper have in abundance (though I am hesitant to say they need a nerf, lest I bring the wrath of god down upon me.) so an increase in our overall damage with some utility would be nice, or alternatively if they want to keep our damage output the same it could be interesting to see sorcs maybe take a heavier support roll and give them several utility abilities that buffs everyone in their team, if they did that then it could be possible to change what buffs team members receive depending on which tree you are in. of course with that last part i probably rambled a bit too much there.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Here are some generalized ideas I came up with to bolster sorcs pvp capabilities and hopefully address some pve problems.

 

First off remove the extra 5% defense rating sorcs get and give us actual, reliable defenses. I assume this is why we have such a low armor rating as this stat is "supposed to" make us more tanky while still being a cloth target. Simply I do not feel that this really works at all. It is an RNG mechanic that provides us with no consistent defense whatsoever. Instead increase our armor rating or provide us with some real damage mitigation talents like the other classes can spec into. The fact is in both pve and pvp our class takes entirely too much damage and thanks to spell pushback "cloth squishyness" actually lowers our damage further.

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Redesign overload. This ability being changed was something nobody asked for. Yes the change to make the ability instant was nice but it didn't change the fact that the ability is very lackluster. As overload is currently it is only useful for knocking people off ledges in pve and pvp. The knockback effect is very weak, melee target that are on a sorc in pvp will only be pushed back around 8 - 10 meters which every class has at least one 10 meter CC or mobility option to get right back on you. Then when you consider abilities like obliterate that has a 10 meter range, roots targets and breaks roots even the lightning spec overload isn't that defensively useful. The fact is overload is only a good kiting tool if you are already a distance away from the opponent.

 

Personally if you want to keep the current overload design, change how it works. Targets that are nearer to the sorc (closer to the impact of overload) should be knocked back considerably further. The farther the target is from the sorceror the less distance they are knocked back. Adding at least a small root or slow would also help define this as a keep-away ability on par with the sniper and merc knockback.

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Force speed needs root immunity for it's duration. No debate here, I'm not even going to discuss it. The quality of life on force speed for dps sorcs is terrible, this move is countered by every type of CC except slows and most of the time people don't even mean to do it.

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Improve our CC capabilities. It makes no sense that assassins have every bit of CC a sorceror has then some. Assassins have mind trap, electrocute, low slash, spike, whirlwind and overload. Every patch our CC has become worse with time and for a class that is based off kiting and CC, that is not a good thing. Currently our kiting abilities are barely on par to handle a single quality player and in some cases (like smash) it is almost impossible. So if we can barely handle kiting a single decent player in a sterile environment, how are you supposed to handle being focused by more than one person? In some cases you can't even really fight back as you have to kite and run, but you can't produce any worthwhile damage while kiting. Our class is so dependent in pvp on other classes baby sitting us that without a great team in arena, a sorcerer is a free kill. Giving us the ability to get an instant whirlwind would be a good start. (why exactly AOE mezs are instant cast and a single target mez has a 2 second cast is beyond me)

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Improve our ability to get casts off in pvp Polarity shift simply does not cut it. While it is a decent ability having to rely on a 2 min just to get some casts off is pretty pathetic. Currently in arenas it takes an incredible amount of team work and coordination just so a sorc can function. Other than mercs I don't know of any class that has use such a high level of teamwork just in order to function. Specs like full madness need full casts just in order to maintain their force which can't be done due to the nature of pvp. It costs a melee spec nothing to use an interrupt just as it costs a tank type class nothing to taunt someone (no global, no cost). Yet on the opposite side our damage is mostly casted and our utility (whirlwind, dark heal) are casted. I am not suggesting something like dark heal should be instant cast with no global, but the fact is our functionality is already lower at a base level.

[AdmiralParmesan]

well yea you could do that, we have seen that with the uncleanseable dot thing, that is something that has no affect on pve what so ever, I guess some people (including myself) are worried that any update we do get will be mainly geared towards pvp, leaving us as a second rate dps in raids getting passed over for Snipers, just like some melee classes would get passed over for marauders.

 

I feel I should mention that anything that can one shot someone in a raid is generally designed to one shot everyone except maybe tanks. main problem we face is that through a combination of generally lower dps and no raid utility, which as I mention earlier is something both a marauder and a sniper have in abundance (though I am hesitant to say they need a nerf, lest I bring the wrath of god down upon me.) so an increase in our overall damage with some utility would be nice, or alternatively if they want to keep our damage output the same it could be interesting to see sorcs maybe take a heavier support roll and give them several utility abilities that buffs everyone in their team, if they did that then it could be possible to change what buffs team members receive depending on which tree you are in. of course with that last part i probably rambled a bit too much there.

 

I'm aware we parse lower than sniper/mara. Even worse when you consider all the globals we spend on static barrier. However due to my lack of experience in pve I don't want to suggest damage changes that might be out of line. But if I had to suggest something....

 

Buff full lightning's affliction damage or non crit lightning strike damage. This spec already does great burst in pvp but lacks sustained on par with the top teir classes. This would address both while not making it too out of line in pvp.

 

Buff full madness's regeneration. If madness could maintain it's force better then shock would be a better option on the move. Focal lightning should have a longer buff duration and should decrease the cost of lightning strike while increasing the damage of wrath lightning strikes.

[Stormhuntr]

Make the Parasitism talent in madness tree restore 1% force instead of health. It's not like madness self heals are useful.

 

Wrong trust me your healers like it and when needed like kitting Raptus it helps alot.

[Stormhuntr]

Honestly beyond what has been stated that force management issues need to be addressed with maddness, I would love to see a mass aff. ability. It would be fun way to spice up maddness and even hybrids (possibly). Edited November 8, 2013 by Stormhuntr
Spelling Mistakes

[Psirebral]

Might want to sticky this.

[verfallen]

Doesn't take much to fix lightning in PvE, spec can be in a very good place right now. What could help however:

 

 

-Static barrier off the global cooldown, with a cooldown to offset ( can be 3-6 sec with a talent to get it back to 1,5 sec in corruption tree)

 

- Pushback protection for Crushing Darkness. Spec casts it on cooldown, on hardcast. Madness doesn't need it. Get it out of Sith efficacy and into subversion.

 

-Lightning barrage proc immune to pushbacks. Simply taking a hit or using it in burn phase you lose half the damage on it.

 

-Add a talent giving armor penetration to lightning strike and possibly Chain lightning.

 

-Add a sort of execute, increasing damage dealt by lightning strike or shock on target under 30%.

 

Some people also ask for instant thundering blast. I'm on the fence with this one, since instant TB would mean they would have to considerably lower the damage in order for it not to be overpowered due to the auto crit.

 

 

And last : add some darn utility to the class. If sorc is about knowing when to heal or when to deal damage, well the question is easily answered in some instances : never heal or group risk hitting an enrage. In PvE at least.

[psybernetic]

Doesn't take much to fix lightning in PvE, spec can be in a very good place right now. What could help however:

 

 

-Static barrier off the global cooldown, with a cooldown to offset ( can be 3-6 sec with a talent to get it back to 1,5 sec in corruption tree)

Alternatively it could be on its own internal CD of 1.5s since it blocks next to nothing in pvp.

 

- Pushback protection for Crushing Darkness. Spec casts it on cooldown, on hardcast. Madness doesn't need it. Get it out of Sith efficacy and into subversion.

 

-Lightning barrage proc immune to pushbacks. Simply taking a hit or using it in burn phase you lose half the damage on it.

Agreed.

 

-Add a talent giving armor penetration to lightning strike and possibly Chain lightning.

An interesting proposal. I hadn't thought of that.

 

-Add a sort of execute, increasing damage dealt by lightning strike or shock on target under 30%.

Yes, we need an execute.

 

Some people also ask for instant thundering blast. I'm on the fence with this one, since instant TB would mean they would have to considerably lower the damage in order for it not to be overpowered due to the auto crit.

Not for an increase in the CD and cost.

 

 

And last : add some darn utility to the class. If sorc is about knowing when to heal or when to deal damage, well the question is easily answered in some instances : never heal or group risk hitting an enrage. In PvE at least.

 

This idea was brought up a while back with the form of stances or with a shadow priest-type talent.

 

As far as stances would to, give one for each tree. Corruption's would increase alacrity by X/Y% for self/raid. Lightning's would increase crit by X/Y% for self/raid. Madness would restore resources for X/Y% of damage done for self raid. Extremely rough ideas, but could definitely be useful and bring give reasons to bring sorcs to raids. PvP utility would be there as well.

[veyl]

Reposting my thoughts:

 

I like the idea about this thread, however, I hope it doesn't turn out to be like the Class Feedback thread that was posted way back in 1.4 and then 0 changes happened until the Makeb Expansion. WHen those changes were on test there was a lot of theory crafting going on (specially with PVP) and the same issues were still spoken out about but had nothing done about them on the development end. I do hope that the developers start class balancing WAY MORE OFTEN then they have been.

 

From a PVE DPS perspective: Sorcs are still behind. There should not be a "hybrid tax" because we can offheal // shield. Right now, I feel sorc's are a worthless support class while Marauders (who are supposed to be a pure dps class) have better group support with bloodthirst-predation.

 

-- Both Lightning and Madness builds are lacking something that almost every other class has in some variation: An Execute range ability. This should either be a baseline ability that is accessible for the class or it should be a low tier talent that can be snagged. I just simply don't understand why there isn't one yet. The other healer/dps classes have sub 30% damage increase talents (and it's incredibly strong for operatives)... Sorcs should as well.

 

-Thundering blast hits for too little for the length of its cast time. This should be shortened as a top tier talent. There's something wrong in basic game design when Orbital strike for snipers and operatives crits for 6.5k+ x3 while other "big hitting abilities" are nowhere near this damage at top Tier Talent abilities.

 

--Force Management. Someone already stated this that you guys think it's fine. It's not. Madness sorcs are out of force in long fights while other dps do not have to worry about this issue. To throw GCD's into an ability that kills us for miniscule force feedback is not only dangerous in High end raids, but a loss of dps. To counter this, the force regen talents in the Madness tree either need to be boosted or there should be an ability that acts like adrenaline probe // vent heat with force regen. (this also goes well with helping healing force managment in high damage/output needing fights)

 

PVE Healing Perspective: It really is pretty solid but it needs another HoT. The only major issue is the higher end content, sorc healers do not have the defensive CD's to use and can be one shot by a lot of things. (or nearly killed)

 

Again: Force management- While operatives and mercs can use an ability that regens energy (diag scan) // can heal with a basic gcd until heat is manageable (rapid shots ), Sorcs are putting themselves (and essentially the raids liveliness) in danger with consumption. The other two healing classes are still putting out healing in a GCD while Sorcs are forcing healing to be done -to- them. This is not class balance at all. Not to mention the fact that both of the other healing AC's have an ability to regen resources.

 

More of an issue for pvp, but in PVE it can also occur that on the move healing and sorcs do not go hand in hand. I would increase the healing done talent while static barrier is up and this should help out. Or when the bubble is broken by damage it then leaves the HoT.

 

Dark infusions cast is still too long. I know this is because of innervate, but it should be a 2.5 second baseline cast - down to 2.0 seconds talented.

 

BASELINE ABILITIES // TALENTS THAT SORCS NEED:

 

- Blink. They need an instant 20 meter teleport because Force Speed is just pathetically horrible in nearly every circumstance comparitively. A 20 meter blink allows the Healing // Lightning Sorc to get to a spot to continue healing // dps'ing with no downtime where as force speed you're stuck to using a few instants that are gigantic dps/HPS losses.

 

- The 2% damage reduction in Madness tree should be changed to : Detaunt-- WHen using Cloud mind on an enemy player // target, it decreases damage done by the target to you by 30-40% for 6 seconds. The 45 second cooldown is long enough to make it viable for PVP and it would become an essential PVE talent to use as well during those fore-mentioned instances of being one shot // nearly killed.

 

PVP Healing Perspective: Like I stated earlier: The lack of defensives in arena's make sorc healers the immediate target. Force them into the bubble, switch targets until they come out, kill them when out of bubble. It's the same story in every match of someone bringing a sorc healer. The mentioned changes above should help.

 

PVP DPS Perspective: I think the above changes would make Sorcs very viable on their own and not have to depend on teammates to keep them alive in order for them to do what they were brought to do. DPS. Having a blink // Force regen fix for madness // execute range talent/ability and a defensive CD that's worth a damn would bring the sorc to where it should be..

 

Right now: Lightning is too easily shutdown and needs interrupt protection outside of polarity shift (If we have bubble up, it should make us immune to interrupts). Sorc's are melee candy no matter what spec they're up against because of no real escapes. Force Barrier SHOWS the cast time so it's easily locked down by any player who is paying attention to cast bars (and PVPers 100% do.... well most of them). I'd also like to mention that MOST of the defensive talents that are needed against melee are in the lightning tree. (Cl root // bubble blind // knockback root)

 

Force speed is a joke in pvp. Period. Root/snare/stun...absolutely no protection to it. There needs to be a Blink

 

Madness is not going to get better with dot protection because they have no protection aside from the 30% dmg reduction talent. The sorc will always be the first target in any arena match because once you're down a player, the odds are much better in your favor.

Edited November 9, 2013 by veyl

[veyl]

- Blink. They need an instant 20 meter teleport because Force Speed is just pathetically horrible in nearly every circumstance comparitively. A 20 meter blink allows the Healing // Lightning Sorc to get to a spot to continue healing // dps'ing with no downtime where as force speed you're stuck to using a few instants that are gigantic dps/HPS losses.

 

I want to point this one out the most from a PVP perspective: Right now, a non healing sorc is dead weight in arena's because: 1- No real defensive CD's outside of immunity bubble. 2- They are not mobile enough to escape the ridiculous amount of snares/roots/slows that can't be cleansed to give them the opportunity to help their team. Instead of the team concentrating on an objective // target, they are forced to protect the sorc.

 

Putting a Blink type of ability into the game for the sorcerer class would help the defensive issues immensly and it wouldn't make them "too op". As a "sorcerer", there should be no reason why it isn't in the game... Force speed is just too easily countered and is pathetic. With a 20 meter blink, it would give the sorc enough space to escape melee and possibly outrange a sniper who can easily obliterate a sorc.

 

I know this is a "wow" ability, but it is in nearly every MMO I've ever played and this is the class that should have it.

[Zero_Unlimited]

They should modify static barrier so that while it is active, you can not be leapt to pulled, or interrupted, like a sniper's cover.

[verfallen]

Ah one more thing:

 

Cleanse should hit physical effects baseline. The other two healing class have tech&Physical baseline, so why doesn't sorc gets it as well?

[Gomex]

It would make much more sense to add blink to the "skirmisher class" that bioware intended for dps sorcs as well...considering the leap/obliterate/hydraulic short+speed/roots you can't dispel/predation(just to spite lol) that negate this "skirmisher class"

 

But no, give this blink idea to snipers

Edited November 10, 2013 by Gomex

[verfallen]

It would make much more sense to add blink to the "skirmisher class" that bioware intended for dps sorcs as well...considering the leap/obliterate/hydraulic short+speed/roots you can't dispel/predation(just to spite lol) that negate this "skirmisher class"

 

But no, give this blink idea to snipers

 

Ite actually more oriented to help them keep up with some fast moving fights in PvE I'd say.

 

 

But sorc sure could use a dedicated escape move in pvp.

Edited November 10, 2013 by verfallen

[AdmiralTran]

I don't heal much, and so I will be focusing my discussion purely on the lightning tree in pvp, which is horrible in arenas, so much so that I am forced to play only madness in pvp. It is my understanding that the developers want sorcerers to survive, not with passive mitigation, but through LoS, CC, and healing. Therefore, I will not suggest adding more passive damage reduction, but instead I will suggest ways to improve sorcerer's survivability via talents in the talent trees.

 

My first suggestion is to fix backlash so that it doesn't break on damage and stuns enemies when the bubble you apply to yourself breaks. This won't be as overpowered as before 2.0, when you could stun the entire team by placing bubbles on other people. In order to avoid abuse from other hybrid specs, this talent should switched with Force Haste, the talent on the 2nd highest tier on the lightning tree.

 

If the above change seems TOO overpowered for you there is another solution! Make it so your own affliction does not cause the mez from the Backlash bubble (that only works when applied to yourself) doesn't break! If I am dpsing a target, I have to put affliction on him so Thundering Blast can crit, and by doing so, I am screwing over my ability to use my Backlash Bubble to escape when he jumps on me because 1-2 seconds after he does, affliction will just break the mez. I am also screwing myself over when I need to use Electric Bindings to knockback also, as affliction breaks this effect before you can make good use of the root time. Which brings me to my next suggestion...

 

Modify the suppression talent so that affliction doesn't cause Whirlwind to end early! In an oh crap moment if you need to CC a target or escape from a target that you have been dpsing, you can't do it because your affliction, which again you must apply for Thundering Blast to crit, will cause it to end early. I understand that lightning is supposed to survive via CC instead of passive damage reduction, however, it is counter-intuitive to require us to place dots on our targets which will cause all of our CC to end early.

 

Next issue. It is impossible for Lightning Sorcerers to kite melee classes. For example, Focus Sentinels, have 5 slows. Force Leap, Zealous Leap, Twin Saber Throw, Leg Slash, and Force Exhaustion. Lightning Sorcerers have only 2 slows, one of which is proc based on Chain Lightning, and is unreliable in a pinch. It is near impossible for a lightning sorcerer to kite a focus/rage tree, which is one of the most popular dps trees in arenas at the moment. We can't LoS and heal to full as you have intended when we are stuck running at 50% movement speed, while the melee beats on us and almost all of our CC escape tools breaks early (see above discussion.) I understand that melee classes need this many slows and gap-closers so that they can stay on target, but Lightning Sorcerers should have at least ONE effective escape.

 

Replace Fadeout with Force Suffusion in the Corruption Tree. This will allow the Lightning (and Madness, but Lightning needs it more) to escape every 15-20 seconds. This change will not be game breaking as Melee still would have more slows and leaps to catch up (Force Leap is on a shorter cooldown than Force Speed) but it would at least give the Lightning Sorcerer the chance to LoS and heal before they do. This change is especially needed since force leap and zealous leap can root during force speed, which negates the use of force speed entirely.

 

I sincerely believe that the above changes would more or less fix Lightning's survivability in arenas, however there is one more issue that Lightning (and corruption) have in common. This issue is one of the main reasons most sorcerers in pvp use madness or a hybrid spec with madness for dps. This issue is that the spec is EASILY shutdown by interrupts. Every class has one interrupt move, which on paper may not seem like much of an issue, however you have to also consider the fact that stuns, knockbacks, and leaps interrupt targets too. When you take this into consideration, classes end up having like 5 or 6 interrupts.

 

Consider this scenario:

In the Lightning Tree I start casting Thundering Blast on a Focus Guardian. He sees this and so his response is Force Leap me (1 Interrupt). I start casting it again immediately since Force Leap doesn't have a lockout timer on the move that it interrupted, his response is to Force Kick me (2nd Interrupt). With my unused Thundering Blast Now on a lockout, I have no choice but to start running, lest I get eaten alive. I use Force Speed, the Guardian's response is to Zealous Leap me. When this is done I start casting Thundering Blast again, the Guardian responds with force push (3rd Interrupt). I Get back up and start casting Thundering Blast for the 4th time, the Guardian's Force Leap cooldown is now refreshed and he leaps me again (4th Interrupt). As there is no lockout from getting interrupted by Force Leap, I start casting Thundering Blast again, the Guardian Uses Force Stasis stunning me (5th Interrupt). When force stasis expires I immediately begin casting Thundering Blast again, but by this time the guardian's Force Kick is off cooldown (6th interrupt). I run and/or cast something else, when my lockout from Force Kick expires, I cast Thundering Blast for the 7th time, and the Guardian uses Awe (7th Interrupt). After Awe expires, I run I try casting Thundering Blast again but by this time his force leap is off cooldown and I am interrupted for the 8th time..... etc, etc, etc.

 

As you can see from the above scenario, Lightning is so easily shut down by interrupts, so much so that Sorcerer's are Forced to play specs that allow them to do damage on the move, i.e. Madness or Hybrid. Which brings me to my next suggestion. Either make Thundering Blast Immune to interrupts, OR (preferably) Increase the Cooldown of Thundering Blast from 9 to 12 seconds and Make it Instant cast! Mercenary's Heatseeker's are instant cast, and snipers are immune to interrupts, so I don't see how giving an instant, or uninterruptible Thundering Blast to Sorcerer's would ruin game balance, if other ranged classes can already do one of the above.

 

This ends my suggestions for Lightning Sorcerers in pvp changes. I do play Lightning in pve, and the only change we need there is for Subversion to reduce the pushback on Crushing Darkness. The only other obvious change for pve/pvp is to fix the Force Regen Bug on Forceweaver, which grants 1% or 2% Alacrity but doesn't increase the force regen rate.

 

Well said! This is a perfect example of the kind of torture a Lighting/Telekenetics Sorc/Sage goes through in a Warzone. This is the only spec I play in PVE and absolutely love its potential, but I stopped playing Lighting/TK Hybird spec in WZ's after the 1.2 nerf. Madness or Madness Hybird specs seem to be the only spec which allows MOBILITY, better survivability, and INSTANT abilites (our dots, DF, Shock). Still squishy as hell, but at least we have an easier time KEEPING our distance as a ranged dps should due to its mobility. Also, our dots can pick away at our targets for a bit until a we get rooted/stunned and smashed into oblivion.

 

I agree the pushback on Crushing Darkness in PVE is terrible. Why not allow it to have an instant proc as it does for the madness tree but in the Lighting tree? One solution would be to have Lighting strike reduce its cast time per stack of Subversion. This could allow us to at least inflict some damage while trying to cast Thundering blast for the 8th time on the same opponent in pvp. Another solution would be allowing Crushing darkness to be an instant execute on on enemies with <30% health. Either way, We need an execute like many other classes.

 

But most importantly as mentioned above, having our force sprint break/be imune to roots, slows, stuns is the way to go. the Lighting tree lacks survivability and any way to put up a fight against a Warrior/Knight in close range. The casts are interupted and pushed back. Please fix this..

 

These are some of the many similar suggestions posted in this thread.

 

1. Give us an execute

2. Have force speed be immune to roots, slows, and allow it to break these abilities. To at least allow us to create a gap from our opponent.

3. Advanced class wide mez on enemies once force armor expires.

4. Instant cast on Turbulence, but increase the CD to 12sec from 9sec, and give it a knockback within 10meters

5. Give us back our 360 knockback or allow our knock back to push enemies much further as a sniper or merc.

6. Allow some healing from casting Force Barrier.

7. Specifically for Lighting spec.. Prevent Affliction from breaking our CC's, breaking a root on an opponent after our knockback.

8. A cover mechanic similar to snipers/slingers, making us immune to interupts.

[Tazmynn]

As far as stances would to, give one for each tree. Corruption's would increase alacrity by X/Y% for self/raid. Lightning's would increase crit by X/Y% for self/raid. Madness would restore resources for X/Y% of damage done for self raid. Extremely rough ideas, but could definitely be useful and bring give reasons to bring sorcs to raids. PvP utility would be there as well.

 

Crit rating for lightning wouldn't work well since it already has an auto crit.

[Tazmynn]

Also, I think lightning needs some sort of interrupt immunity, and an execute using the Force to throw your lightsaber would be great.

[Gomex]

Also, I think lightning needs some sort of interrupt immunity, and an execute using the Force to throw your lightsaber would be great.

 

Sorcs needing an execute when the other hybrid dps/heals classes don't have one isn't going to "balance" as much as the other issues that desperately needs to be addressed.

[verfallen]

Sorcs needing an execute when the other hybrid dps/heals classes don't have one isn't going to "balance" as much as the other issues that desperately needs to be addressed.

 

Pretty much. Altough some of the spec find themselves with talent that simulate one, and that would be interesting to fix the few specs who lack theirs (concealment, lightning and arsenal).

 

And I don't believe people realize what getting instant TB would cost us. I'm fairly sure BW mean for it to be slightly inferior to Heatseekers people like comparing too. Issue is, its currently there in average (people like the big 12k crits that happens when a merc get his HM to crit while his relics are on, but in average the ability is barely above TB in damage/cast or GCD.

 

Cutting down 0,5 sec on this, even when looking at a cooldown increase, you'll also see a damage nerf. Either through the crit damage bonus or damage of the ability itself.

 

Lightning direct damage will never be as impressive as arsenal, since arsenal has absolutely no DoTs ticking.

 

Subversion could use a redesign to damage reduction or something more useful than force regen lightning doesn't need tough, however instant CD sounds a bit too much for me.

[psybernetic]

Arsenal's also not as proc-happy as Lightning is. Nothing I've ever seen in any game is, actually. Every single ability Lightning uses procs or is procced by something. Average TB damage is about 6.6k, without the added proc. Raising the cost and CD on it while keeping the autocrit won't justify also decreasing its damage. As it stands, the spec is ok in raids and utterly useless in ranked pvp with Madness's current performance levels.

[verfallen]

Arsenal's also not as proc-happy as Lightning is. Nothing I've ever seen in any game is, actually. Every single ability Lightning uses procs or is procced by something. Average TB damage is about 6.6k, without the added proc. Raising the cost and CD on it while keeping the autocrit won't justify also decreasing its damage. As it stands, the spec is ok in raids and utterly useless in ranked pvp with Madness's current performance levels.

 

Isn't that many of them, and they have an high enough proc rate to not hurt you very much.

 

Forked lightning procs are a bit like a critical hit, and happens normally often enough. Chain lightning instant proc is also normally proccing very close to its rate limit, and lightning barrage is due to crit rating nerf less common but still happens every 10-15 second or so, and if you can multi dot it gets much closer to its 10% rate limit.

 

Imo its better than Vengeance's ravage proc mechanic by a longshot.

 

You are also massively underestimating TB, its regular damage in 72 being closer to 8k, and the ammount of control autocrit gives you is superior to HM. I've made calculation on its average dps with its current cast time and for similarly geared merc vs sorc, the dps is inferior by barely a 100 when you include most factor over a minute, including that 2/6 TB will be cast with polarity shift on with the 2 pieces set bonus.

 

I'm 100% sure you are looking in case of a change to cast time at either a big cooldown increase (15 seconds) or a damage reduction, unless you want to discuss some kind of overhaul with the mechanic, which imo I don't want. If i wanted Heatseekers as they are, I'd play a merc.

[psybernetic]

Isn't that many of them, and they have an high enough proc rate to not hurt you very much.

 

Forked lightning procs are a bit like a critical hit, and happens normally often enough. Chain lightning instant proc is also normally proccing very close to its rate limit, and lightning barrage is due to crit rating nerf less common but still happens every 10-15 second or so, and if you can multi dot it gets much closer to its 10% rate limit.

 

Imo its better than Vengeance's ravage proc mechanic by a longshot.

 

You are also massively underestimating TB, its regular damage in 72 being closer to 8k, and the ammount of control autocrit gives you is superior to HM. I've made calculation on its average dps with its current cast time and for similarly geared merc vs sorc, the dps is inferior by barely a 100 when you include most factor over a minute, including that 2/6 TB will be cast with polarity shift on with the 2 pieces set bonus.

 

I'm 100% sure you are looking in case of a change to cast time at either a big cooldown increase (15 seconds) or a damage reduction, unless you want to discuss some kind of overhaul with the mechanic, which imo I don't want. If i wanted Heatseekers as they are, I'd play a merc.

 

The vast majority of issues this class has are in pvp, from which perspective I am looking. In 67s, the average TB hit is in the mid-high 6ks, with luckier hits getting upward of 8k based on relic procs and target expertise. I've seen it hit for almost 10k in the open world on players with no pvp gear, but that's irrelevant. TB currently sits at around 11 seconds between casts because of cast time and cooldown. Increase the CD to 12 seconds, remove the cast time and possibly increase the cost and you've kept it balanced. Procs are fine in pve (although not currently for Vengeance... that's a horrible rate), but are more often than not a liability in pvp.

 

The only viable sorc spec in ranked pvp is Madness, and that's with a high skill level and a good team. Remove either of those factors and you're going to lose. Lightning's absolutely horrible without a premade team to keep you up, and Corruption's too easily shut down as well, which is why this thread is focusing on Lightning and Corruption despite the many attempts to make it about Madness by some. Pvp changes can easily be made without affecting the pve meta, and what I've been suggesting takes that into consideration. If you're not casting TB any more frequently because of an increased CD, it's not going to up the DPS against a boss; however, if you're able to actually get damage off under pressure in pvp it's going to make the spec far more viable and accessible.

 

Oh, and to list the procs in Lightning:

Affliction procs fast FL

LS and TB proc instant, free CL

LS, TB and CL proc extra damage

LS and CL proc stacking 1% bonus damage

CD procs double ticks

 

All of our primary damaging spells have procs associated with them. All of them.

[verfallen]

The vast majority of issues this class has are in pvp, from which perspective I am looking. In 67s, the average TB hit is in the mid-high 6ks, with luckier hits getting upward of 8k based on relic procs and target expertise. I've seen it hit for almost 10k in the open world on players with no pvp gear, but that's irrelevant. TB currently sits at around 11 seconds between casts because of cast time and cooldown. Increase the CD to 12 seconds, remove the cast time and possibly increase the cost and you've kept it balanced. Procs are fine in pve (although not currently for Vengeance... that's a horrible rate), but are more often than not a liability in pvp.

 

The only viable sorc spec in ranked pvp is Madness, and that's with a high skill level and a good team. Remove either of those factors and you're going to lose. Lightning's absolutely horrible without a premade team to keep you up, and Corruption's too easily shut down as well, which is why this thread is focusing on Lightning and Corruption despite the many attempts to make it about Madness by some. Pvp changes can easily be made without affecting the pve meta, and what I've been suggesting takes that into consideration. If you're not casting TB any more frequently because of an increased CD, it's not going to up the DPS against a boss; however, if you're able to actually get damage off under pressure in pvp it's going to make the spec far more viable and accessible.

 

Oh, and to list the procs in Lightning:

Affliction procs fast FL

LS and TB proc instant, free CL

LS, TB and CL proc extra damage

LS and CL proc stacking 1% bonus damage

CD procs double ticks

 

All of our primary damaging spells have procs associated with them. All of them.

 

 

Forked Darkness and Lightning, as I've mentionned are not exactly something to be monitored, and are a bit like an extra critical hit on some abilities.

 

Now where you are deadly wrong is thinking simply increasing the cooldown to 12 second and making TB an instant cast would keep it as it is now with a QoL for PvP.

 

The problem is you think "1 TB every 11 seconds" keeps thing fine as they are, but I won't stay idle in those 2 seconds I don't have to cast TB in anymore. I will use something in its place, so an extra lightning strike every 10 sec at the very least.

 

I understand you want to be more competitive in PvP, but balancing sorc for it must be done with tools to allow it survivability, especially against high melee burst, but if you make it too powerful in PvE you'll just see whining, and in a few months nerf will screw you again.

[psybernetic]

LS could take a hit in its damage to compensate. Honestly, it shouldn't have been buffed with 2.0 instead of TB.

[AdmiralParmesan]

Is it too much to ask for wanting to be the "master of the force" that we are advertised as?

 

I mean assassins and marauders definitely would fit that archetype a lot better than us, they have all kinds of unique cooldowns and abilities. Juggernauts can literally punt players around with force push. While my sorc feels more like playing a guy covered in napkins who has a bunch of batteries in his pocket.