Bioware's monday morning.

[Blackardin]

I mean, you wake up, hit your work desk on a monday morning, which hits like a truck for everyone, and first thing you got to do is go through the piles of whining, entitlment, swearing, and all sorts of messages, polite or not, which all bring down to the same message " your game sucks , blah blah blah "

 

Give'em a break.

 

Its not just them, its every board on every game. Went back and looked at Wow to see what they are up to, same thing. Tried FFXIV last week, read their boards, almost topic for topic, "no end game", "ugly armor", "they don't know what they are doing", "customer service sucks", etc.

 

I'm thinking at this point they are looking at it the same way many of us do. LOL

[Blackardin]

Why dont you just post in the other bioware is awesome thread so you people can more easily identify and stroke together while singing bioware praises. This is the real world and the real world has problems. Sit there patting yourself on the back long enough and you will be dethroned from the meteocrity slot

 

....and real people, in the real world.....have issues.....that cause them to post like a child that has had his blanky taken away.

 

Just saying. ;p

[Blackardin]

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous."

 

"They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is. Especially watch out for the ones who tell you that nobody understands your genius.

 

Honestly, this is going to sound horrible, but self-doubt is one of your most powerful tools for craftsmanship. None of the designers you admire feel self-confident about their work in that way. None of them think that they are awesome. They all suffer from impostor complexes the size of the Titanic."

 

 

 

"Everyone who dislikes your work is right."

 

"This is the hardest pill to swallow. I’ve never gotten a piece of feedback that was wrong. You see, you can’t deny a player their unique experience. Whatever they felt, was true. For them. And something in your work triggered it.

 

It is useless, and worse, actually self-defeating, to attempt to deny the critique. Sure, there are sometimes reviews that seem spiteful, unfair, and the rest. But the vast majority of the time, people are giving their honest reaction.

 

And the bottom line is, you put the game out there in order to get reactions. If it were not for reactions, you could have just kept the game in your drawer and gotten everything you needed out of it."

 

- Raph Koster

http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/#more-13450

 

 

 

.

 

Vast difference between critique, and outright whining and misinformation, conjecture, and outright childishness, chief. Don't tell me that you are making an attempt to pass off what we see here as "constructive criticism". LOL

[Ghostius]

 

I'm a subscriber since the beginning and I bough the collector box, I spend money on cartel Market and i'm not the only one and we have the right to expect a quality game !

 

That's explain why people are pissed off when something wrong with SWTOR !!!

 

Just no. People who are pissed off are people who moan if SWTOR isnt going the way THEY want it to go.

Your only right is to access the servers, nothing else. How they make a game its their business, yours is only to comply or to unsub.

[Blackardin]

This is great stuff. I wish more people would understand things as clearly as Mr. Koster does. Thank you for you post.

 

If we are using that as a message to players on how to give feedback, its great. If we are using it to justify the meaningless blurting we see regularly on these boards, it is not.

 

If we note, the second to last item states that when accompanied by ideas and solutions, its great.....but it says nothing about appreciating people calling them morons, idiots, or saying their game sucks because its not molded around one players personal, poorly thought out demands.

[BJWyler]

Just no. People who are pissed off are people who moan if SWTOR isnt going the way THEY want it to go.

Your only right is to access the servers, nothing else. How they make a game its their business, yours is only to comply or to unsub.

 

I disagree. Subscribers have a right to voice their concerns and opinions on the quality and direction of the game and its various interlaced parts. That's a part of the genre - players having input on how they want to see the game evolve. It is up to the developer of said game to decide whether any and all suggestions fit with their overall design, direction, and core audience for the game.

 

I am simply one of those people who believe that well thought out and non-combative construction criticism is better in getting one's point across than infantile rants.

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[Blackardin]

I am a good consumer because i pay specifically for the right to point out their problems. Nobody is asking for a response to every question you know just maybe once in a blue moon say when a topic gets over 170 pages long

 

Truth be told? From my business standpoint, you are the worst of all customers. I would pass you up rather then deal with your through an entire job when I can make just as much with someone who would appreciate the work we do rather, then blow past that and spend every waking moment disrupting the work, looking for anything and everything to complain about....and doing so in a very egregious manner. With all the customers that are out there, you are just not worth it.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Blackardin

[Blackardin]

I disagree. Subscribers have a right to voice their concerns and opinions on the quality and direction of the game and its various interlaced parts. That's a part of the genre - players having input on how they want to see the game evolve. It is up to the developer of said game to decide whether any and all suggestions fit with their overall design, direction, and core audience for the game.

 

I am simply one of those people who believe that well thought out and non-combative construction criticism is better in getting one's point across than infantile rants.

 

Exactly. However, we have the same trouble makers now seeking to use this lucid and informative type of post as justification for their antics on this board....twisting it just as they twist every issue into a drama filled pile of word puzzles presented with little more then grandiose posturing and pomposity of the highest order. There in lies the problem.

 

Good post btw.

[Ghostius]

I am simply one of those people who believe that well thought out and non-combative construction criticism is better in getting one's point across than infantile rants.

 

Yes, in theory it sounds fine, but in practice all non-combative cricism become combative very fast and becomes offensive w/o just cause BW didnt listen every time.

[curtkram]

so, BJWyler and andryah get to decide which posts are "ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback?" are there others? have you self-selected your committee of white knights that are now allowed to judge which posts should be ignored as "ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback" and which should be considered constructive? can you develop some sort of objective criteria that would separate the constructive from non-constructive, or do you just consider the posts you agree with to be constructive, and those you disagree with to be non-constructive? the context of your post didn't differentiate, though ralph koster did.

 

what ralph koster said is:

Everyone who dislikes your work is right.

You have to dig to get the gold.

he wasn't saying a white knight needs to dismiss all critical posts. in those sections, he was saying sometimes good feedback comes dressed in a ugly package. i'm not sure if it's andryah that you don't understand, or mr. koster, but dismissing posts because they are critical is not the best course of action.

 

you don't have decades of evidence of anything. the internet in general was a very different place 20 years ago. your ability to predict the future leaves much to be desired, as did andryah's when she insisted this game would never go free to play.

[Blackardin]

Yeah, cuz this is a really tough job for them...right? If I did as poorly at my job as some people at Bioware do at theirs (QA), I'd just be thankful I had a job to come to.

 

Case in point. This is a fine example of what we see, rather then constructive criticism. It consists of little more then uniformed opinion in the form of insults. This poster has no idea at all what he is talking about, but writes in an authoritative manner as if he does. This is what we see every day, from a select group of people that are really doing nothing more then disrupting any chance at all for rational, adult discussion concerning the game as they just have to interject their nonsense into every thread and skew them off track, misrepresent them, blather on about their unjustified hate of a game they continue to play.

 

There are those of us, in fact, the vast majority of players, that do enjoy the game very much. We understand there are issues with the game, no question, but quite frankly, WE are more tired of this nonsense then I believe the developers could ever be, as they are disrupting us more then them. I mean, hell, one cannot even post a "thank you" thread without them descending upon it like a flock of whooping cranes screaming their mantras as loud and as often as they are able.

 

Everyone gets to tell us "what they would do" if they were developers. Yeah, the first thing I would do is to ban that group permanently, and leave room for those that are willing and able to post constructive feedback that would actually be useful, and not just to start arguments.

[Blackardin]

so, BJWyler and andryah get to decide which posts are "ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback?" are there others?

 

yeah. Me.....and I declare yours to be such as you are, once again, mucking up clear and concise discussion with your abstract "interpretation", ad-hominems, and logical fallacy reasoning so as to justify your personal "feelings", and not intellectual prowess regarding a simple concept.

 

BANNED. LOL

 

See, that was easy. ;p

Edited October 22, 2013 by Blackardin

[mmjarec]

Truth be told? From my business standpoint, you are the worst of all customers. I would pass you up rather then deal with your through an entire job when I can make just as much with someone who would appreciate the work we do rather, then blow past that and spend every waking moment disrupting the work, looking for anything and everything to complain about....and doing so in a very egregious manner. With all the customers that are out there, you are just not worth it.

 

Last i checked i wasnt disrupting anyones work nor i would you have the displeasure of my patronage because i wouldnt patronize any business you were a part of. I dont complain sbout anyting and everything i complain about the same things other people do and with your attitude i wouldnt be the only one purposely avoiding yur hupothetical establishment. Its covenient for tou to overlook the multitude of posts that werent critical where i said i liked the story etc because it doesnt fit the picture you are tryigg to paint

 

Its one thing for me to complain about a game i habe a right to. Its another thing alltogether for you to go off on a personal tirade because i dont hold hands with bioware like you insist. I point out facts which is more constructive than you trying to play mr savior of holy bioware.

 

I can agree to disagree with civility and keep it on topic. You however insist on slandering me personally for not adhering to your concepts or do anything with civility unless somehow you can be portrayed as the most important and indespensible asset on the forum proven by your statement assuming if you had a business that it would be worthy of patronage

 

Real men can take negativity and turn the other cheek and make the best of it cyou however do nothing but make it worse by cloaking yoyrself in the bioware cloak with your condescending self righteousness and self importance

Edited October 22, 2013 by mmjarec
Sjsj

[Blackardin]

Last i checked i wasnt disrupting anyones work nor i would you have the displeasure of my patronage because i wouldnt patronize any business you were a part of. I dont complain sbout anyting and everything i complain about the same things other people do and with your attitude i wouldnt be the only one purposely avoiding yur hupothetical establishment. Its covenient for tou to overlook the multitude of posts that werent critical where i said i liked the story etc because it doesnt fit the picture you are tryigg to paint

 

Its one thing for me to complain about a game i habe a right to. Its another thing alltogether for you to go off on a personal tirade because i dont hold hands with bioware like you insist. I point out facts which is more constructive than you trying to play mr savior of holy bioware.

 

I can agree to disagree with civility and keep it on topic. You however insist on slandering me personally for not adhering to your concepts or do anything with civility unless somehow you can be portrayed as the most important and indespensible asset on the forum proven by your statement assuming if you had a business that it would be worthy of patronage

 

Real men can take negativity and turn the other cheek and make the best of it cyou however do nothing but make it worse

 

You aer doing it right now, attempting to twist this entire thread into a rationale for your behavior....which started with "I'm a good customer". LOL You can't see that....or are you refusing to see that your ax-grinding, constant disruption of threads, irrational logic (and attempts to justify so as you are doing here), full blown anger and hate are disruptive?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Blackardin

[mmjarec]

You aer doing it right now, attempting to twist this entire thread into a rationale for your behavior....which started with "I'm a good customer". LOL You can't see that?

 

No im defendig myself and pointing out your hypocrisy last i checked i was on topic till you started slinging insults

Sorry to the others that they had to see this out of respect for them im ending my replies to your insults as someone has to be the man

[TUXs]

Case in point. This is a fine example of what we see, rather then constructive criticism. It consists of little more then uniformed opinion in the form of insults. This poster has no idea at all what he is talking about, but writes in an authoritative manner as if he does. This is what we see every day, from a select group of people that are really doing nothing more then disrupting any chance at all for rational, adult discussion concerning the game as they just have to interject their nonsense into every thread and skew them off track, misrepresent them, blather on about their unjustified hate of a game they continue to play.

 

There are those of us, in fact, the vast majority of players, that do enjoy the game very much. We understand there are issues with the game, no question, but quite frankly, WE are more tired of this nonsense then I believe the developers could ever be, as they are disrupting us more then them. I mean, hell, one cannot even post a "thank you" thread without them descending upon it like a flock of whooping cranes screaming their mantras as loud and as often as they are able.

 

Everyone gets to tell us "what they would do" if they were developers. Yeah, the first thing I would do is to ban that group permanently, and leave room for those that are willing and able to post constructive feedback that would actually be useful, and not just to start arguments.

Wow...pot, meet kettle. Speaking of people who have no idea what they are talking about...you just moved to the top of the list!

 

You obviously just want to insult me, because your ranting little post doesn't describe me at all. I don't hate the game, I enjoy it, hence I pay. I don't feel any need to "thank" the Devs either - my continuing sub does that.

 

I don't tell people what "I" would do if I were a developer, but I sure as hell feel free to express my opinions on what I think would IMPROVE the game...blind lust doesn't.

[curtkram]

yeah. Me.....and I declare yours to be such as you are, once again, mucking up clear and concise discussion with your abstract "interpretation", ad-hominems, and logical fallacy reasoning so as to justify your personal "feelings", and not intellectual prowess regarding a simple concept.

 

BANNED. LOL

 

See, that was easy. ;p

 

first of all, i didn't post on monday morning. i waited until monday afternoon or tuesday or somewhere around then for my first post in this thread, so i actually did read the OP and complied with their request. how about a 'thank you' instead of just being a dick?

 

second, i wasn't banned. if you can see this post, that's pretty good evidence. you're ability to reconcile real life with whatever it is going on in your head is not working. things just don't work the way you think they do.

[Blackardin]

Wow...pot, meet kettle. Speaking of people who have no idea what they are talking about...you just moved to the top of the list!

 

You obviously just want to insult me, because your ranting little post doesn't describe me at all. I don't hate the game, I enjoy it, hence I pay. I don't feel any need to "thank" the Devs either - my continuing sub does that.

 

I don't tell people what "I" would do if I were a developer, but I sure as hell feel free to express my opinions on what I think would IMPROVE the game...blind lust doesn't.

 

No, my friend. I'm just "critiquing" you. LOL

[TUXs]

No, my friend. I'm just "critiquing" you. LOL

 

Ah...that's constructive.

[BJWyler]

Yes, in theory it sounds fine, but in practice all non-combative cricism become combative very fast and becomes offensive w/o just cause BW didnt listen every time.

 

And whose fault is that? The person who decides to become combative and non-constructive. No one forced them to go in that direction, that was 100% their choice. Your last statement is just conjecture based on your own opinion and personal views. Only those who are actually working in the BioWare offices know whether they listened or not. I am reminded of something I was told a long time ago:

 

When a police officer interviews 5 witnesses to an auto accident, you will get 5 different versions of what happened. None will be an actual representation of what happened, nor will any be inherently closer to the actual truth than the others.

 

so, BJWyler and andryah get to decide which posts are "ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback?" are there others? have you self-selected your committee of white knights that are now allowed to judge which posts should be ignored as "ranty, bratty, non-constructive feedback" and which should be considered constructive?

I can't speak for Andryah or anyone else, but speaking for myself, yes. I do get to decide which posts are infantile and which are contructive - for me. That's the beauty of the world in which we live where each of us is free to decide what is good and what is bad for ourselves. Another benefit is my ability to voice those opinions by whatever means presents itself - a letter to an editor in a newspaper, a call to a phone-in talk show, a video blog, and yes, even a gaming forum. The manner in which I voice that opinion is entirely up to me. As I stated, I do my utmost to do so in a calm, rational manner.

 

can you develop some sort of objective criteria that would separate the constructive from non-constructive, or do you just consider the posts you agree with to be constructive, and those you disagree with to be non-constructive?

Indeed yes I can:

the accepted definitions of said words and concepts.

25+ years of dealing with praise and criticism in the business world, and the customer service industry.

The commonly accepted examples of each based on others with the same experience.

 

Personally speaking, I have found many constructive posts in these forums I do not agree with. Equally, I have found non-constructive posts that I do agree with - I just didn't agree with the method of delivery.

 

 

the context of your post didn't differentiate, though ralph koster did.

 

what ralph koster said is:

 

he wasn't saying a white knight needs to dismiss all critical posts. in those sections, he was saying sometimes good feedback comes dressed in a ugly package. i'm not sure if it's andryah that you don't understand, or mr. koster, but dismissing posts because they are critical is not the best course of action.

And I didn't see our resident "White Knight" disagreeing with anything Koster said in the article, and hence why I quoted her post. I happen to agree with Koster, based on my previously stated 25+ years of experience in the working world. But, just like our "White Knight" I temper that agreement (as Koster would) in that while we should not dismiss the "rant" outright, it can be considered generally better to criticize without being combative. In my experience, those that do end up getting the better end of the deal sooner rather than later.

 

you don't have decades of evidence of anything. the internet in general was a very different place 20 years ago. your ability to predict the future leaves much to be desired, as did andryah's when she insisted this game would never go free to play.

Actually I do - things have been taken out of context for centuries. If you refer back to my previous comments, I was not simply talking about the Internet. And my ability to predict certain aspects of the future is well in tact - human nature, if anything, is completely predictable.

 

For the record, I believed this game would eventually be Free to Play the moment they announced the subscription model - I just wouldn't be able to predict when. I knew for certain it would in May 2012, but again just didn't know when. Therefore, I would have disagreed with Andryah when she made that comment.

Edited October 22, 2013 by BJWyler

[Blackardin]

first of all, i didn't post on monday morning. i waited until monday afternoon or tuesday or somewhere around then for my first post in this thread, so i actually did read the OP and complied with their request. how about a 'thank you' instead of just being a dick?

 

second, i wasn't banned. if you can see this post, that's pretty good evidence. you're ability to reconcile real life with whatever it is going on in your head is not working. things just don't work the way you think they do.

 

So wound up in your anger that you entirely missed the parody of the statement, as well as its factitious nature. ;p

 

That was, in part, the point. The issue here is not at all with "critique" of the game, but the constant disruption that exist on these forums with those that seek only that end.....fuel for their hate.

 

This thread is a shining example which needs no further clarification, but does. LOL This is how it goes. Every last thread, the more rational among us do not spend their time voicing opinion of the game, debating game issues, but pointing out, countering the constant childish whining and conjecture spewed forth from mostly ill informed sources, and always angry individuals with a nasty bile driven motivation. Virtually every post quickly descends into what we have here, the few angry haters squatting on anything that can be of a positive nature, and then resorting to name calling as a method of discrediting any who oppose their adolescent behavior, in an attempt to portray them as "white nights" defending the game rather then critiquing their poor behavior. Its right here before us, like a flash burnt across the sky, sill denied.

 

...but again, as with every thread, I'm wasting my time as none of it will be taken to heart, but argued, because irrational thought is irrational thought.....across the board.....and it is that very inability to see logic, to be rational that is the root of the problem.

[Blackardin]

No im defendig myself and pointing out your hypocrisy last i checked i was on topic till you started slinging insults

 

Yes, and so too does the guy that just got slapped for running around and poking people with a stick. This is, once again, a classic example of the illogical logic we see here.....the inability to see the difference between action and reaction.....or, perhaps, the unwillingness to admit it, so as to justify one's poor behavior.

 

Sorry to the others that they had to see this out of respect for them im ending my replies to your insults as someone has to be the man

 

Please.....

[mmjarec]

Its not a simple thank you letter. He could of sent a personal message to the devs or put in a feedback petition instead it was a intentionally snarky letter ment to be harranged by forum goers otherwise a single letter would habe done better rather than openly posting to everyone when alternate methods would accomplish the task

[Blackardin]

Ah...that's constructive.

 

Schoolyard logic.

 

It is far more constructive then the posts I have critiqued, as it has a logical direction.....to shut down some of the adolescent silliness so that real discussion, without said silliness, can be drudged out of the mud. If I see one doing such, I will exercise my right, the right that your side as port forth, to "critique" as I see fit.

 

Expect more. My patience with the kids is at an end. ;p

[Blackardin]

Its not a simple thank you letter. He could of sent a personal message to the devs or put in a feedback petition instead it was a intentionally snarky letter ment to be harranged by forum goers otherwise a single letter would habe done better rather than openly posting to everyone when alternate methods would accomplish the task

 

You mean like using the suggestion forum, or "writing a letter" rather then interjecting their personal disdain, negative tone as a means of derailing every thread they see? LOL