Gambling is illegal

[branmakmuffin]

Not even that..'virtual monopoly paper'. Pixels... :/

 

I do agree with the OP in spirit and sense, but I'm sure their legal eagles have it all well covered for them.

Not even in "spirit and sense." When you gamble, you have a chance to lose your stake. With cartel packs, you always get exactly what they say you will get.

[CosmicKat]

And this is why modern MMOGs (with certain exceptions) are in such a horrid state.

 

No-one is forcing you to spend real money on those asinine surprise-bags, mate. And even if you paid real money for the CC to get one, then you're not risking losing money, because, as others have noted, you always get something.

 

Maybe you should spend more time playing the game, and less time paying to eat the slops-for-pigs that EA throws you? That's all it is, to them.

 

But whether you be a player, or a pig, is entirely up to you.

 

I'd be in full agreement with you IF one had to be a consenting adult to play MMO's. If any adult wants to spend any amount of money on this racket, go nuts. Adults (should) know they are buying nothing. Children have no concept that in a few years time, the game will shut down and every penny spent on it will be vapor.

 

The fact that children can and do play MMO's, and don't have the smarts or experience to know when they are being bamboozled, makes the whole gambling bag scam one of the greasiest and lowest forms of business in the world. The companies involved know exactly who they are targeting with these schemes, and it isn't reasonable adults.

[Andryah]

The fact that children can and do play MMO's, and don't have the smarts or experience to know when they are being bamboozled, makes the whole gambling bag scam one of the greasiest and lowest forms of business in the world. The companies involved know exactly who they are targeting with these schemes, and it isn't reasonable adults.

 

The game is not played by toddlers.

 

Nor is it legally playable by a minor without permission of the parent or guardian

Accounts may only be available to persons of legal age and, solely under the supervision of such persons, to any of their children under the age of majority. If you are a minor, your parents, guardians or legal carers must complete the registration procedure, whereby they must take all responsibility concerning the obligations set forth in this EUALA.

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/euala

 

From a practical perspective...on things like this (microtransactions) minors in general are smarter then adults IMO. In addition, their access to money is under the control and supervision of their parents (in both the legal and practical sense). The only time there can be a material issue with a minor is when the parents are asleep at the switch.. and the law holds the parents accountable first and the EULA puts the legal responsibility on the parent.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Andryah

[chuixupu]

I'd be in full agreement with you IF one had to be a consenting adult to play MMO's. If any adult wants to spend any amount of money on this racket, go nuts. Adults (should) know they are buying nothing. Children have no concept that in a few years time, the game will shut down and every penny spent on it will be vapor.

 

The fact that children can and do play MMO's, and don't have the smarts or experience to know when they are being bamboozled, makes the whole gambling bag scam one of the greasiest and lowest forms of business in the world. The companies involved know exactly who they are targeting with these schemes, and it isn't reasonable adults.

 

That's why kids have parents that are reasonable adults to monitor them - I can see how kids can pick up their parent's phone and get crazy with microtransaction before the parent realizes what happened, but if you know you have a kid playing this game, give them time cards rather than a credit card. Even if you trust them enough to load the game up with a card, you can set it up so that you get mobile warnings for transactions.

 

As a kid I had zero access to any money other than spare change, kids these days, lol.

Edited October 3, 2013 by chuixupu

[CosmicKat]

The game is not played by toddlers.

 

Nor is it legally playable by a minor without permission of the parent or guardian

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/euala

 

From a practical perspective...on things like this (microtransactions) minors in general are smarter then adults IMO. In addition, their access to money is under the control and supervision of their parents (in both the legal and practical sense). The only time there can be a material issue with a minor is when the parents are asleep at the switch.. and the law holds the parents accountable first and the EULA puts the legal responsibility on the parent.

 

Yes, that's what I said. It's greasy and low. I didn't say it was illegal.

 

It's a corporation using predatory marketing against vulnerable individuals.

 

And clicking a check box in a EULA is not even close to legally binding in most jurisdictions that the game operates in. It is not possible in most of the Western world to voluntarily waive your rights as a person or a consumer. A EULA is just a "let's cover our ***" thing to avoid the most frivolous of lawsuits.

[midianlord]

The game is not played by toddlers.

 

Nor is it legally playable by a minor without permission of the parent or guardian

http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/euala

 

From a practical perspective...on things like this (microtransactions) minors in general are smarter then adults IMO. In addition, their access to money is under the control and supervision of their parents (in both the legal and practical sense). The only time there can be a material issue with a minor is when the parents are asleep at the switch.. and the law holds the parents accountable first and the EULA puts the legal responsibility on the parent.

 

(Buggered up the quote, yay, forumz!) ^^This.^^

 

It is explicit in the EULA that the onus is on the parent/s, guardian/s, primary caregiver/s, whatever.

 

But then, I skew atypically quite conservative on this sort of thing for a reason; If I were a parent, then my kids wouldn't be allowed to play MMOs until they were at east 14-15, fullstop/end-of.

 

The converse of this is yet another problem of MMOGs in general, is that they're trying to make them appeal more and more to kids.

 

The whole MTX thing is another reason why this should not be, IMHO.

[Arkerus]

I'd be in full agreement with you IF one had to be a consenting adult to play MMO's. If any adult wants to spend any amount of money on this racket, go nuts. Adults (should) know they are buying nothing. Children have no concept that in a few years time, the game will shut down and every penny spent on it will be vapor.

 

The fact that children can and do play MMO's, and don't have the smarts or experience to know when they are being bamboozled, makes the whole gambling bag scam one of the greasiest and lowest forms of business in the world. The companies involved know exactly who they are targeting with these schemes, and it isn't reasonable adults.

 

Pretty much got this covered already. You find so many things to poke at its ridiculous. What kids have credit cards anyway? Not many as they can't legally hold them without an adult signature or co account holder. Same for check cards with a visa logo.

[Slicksteezin]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding when it comes to what gambling is and whether or not its illegal.

 

as per Merriam Webster's

 

gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

 

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

 

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

 

 

So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future.

 

hahaha

 

go home OP, better luck next time

[Ren_simp]

lucky dip is hardly "gambling"

[Etheric]

Gambling is illegal? Quick! Someone tell Las Vegas.

 

With regard to the RNG packs, they are not gambling. You are spending money for a package which has rare items. It's like any trading card game pack in the last 20 years.

 

Yes but which casino in Vegas has a T-for TEEN rating ?

 

This is not a complaint as i make my living selling Spice and Bath Salts to children on playgrounds. These are not illegal for me to buy and i have my business incorporated so all is good.

 

Seriously though, I have no problem with the pack themselves, what adults do is their own business, i do wish they would either change or remove the rating and i know the ESRB allows "Simulated Gambling " in TEEN games but wonder if this has reached the point where its beyond "Simulating "

[Rafaman]

Well.. he just finished unsuccessfully prosecuting replacement of the engine in another thread.. so a new case was perhaps required, from his perspective.

 

Lol! Oh man... that is the OP. Ok... I was wondering why this unraveled so quickly.

 

OP... admit it, this is troll post. Notice I'm not calling you a troll, but you really like threads like this. You can keep us going for days with your own brand of logic.

[LordArtemis]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding when it comes to what gambling is and whether or not its illegal.

 

as per Merriam Webster's

 

gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

 

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

 

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

 

 

So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future.

 

Or, you could go get a cup of coffee, and time how long it takes until you have to visit the bathroom.

 

I leave it to you, bioware to choose which path you wish to take. Lawsuit or coffee game.

 

Hint: coffee game is more fun, not to mention that fact that it is actually something that can and will happen, as opposed to complete utter fantasy like the OPs post.

 

Thanks for playing.

Edited October 4, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Rafaman]

That's why kids have parents that are reasonable adults to monitor them - I can see how kids can pick up their parent's phone and get crazy with microtransaction before the parent realizes what happened, but if you know you have a kid playing this game, give them time cards rather than a credit card. Even if you trust them enough to load the game up with a card, you can set it up so that you get mobile warnings for transactions.

 

As a kid I had zero access to any money other than spare change, kids these days, lol.

 

Exactly. Lol! If kids have credit cards, that is their parents fault. If kids are buying 20 game cards a month? Yup.. same deal, it is the parents fault. "Kids" should not be running their finances, their parents should be. Once they learn fiscal responsibility you loosen the chain, hope it stuck and monitor. But once they go to college... all bets are off.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Rafaman

[Screaming_Ziva]

Sorry OP, but you are technically incorrect. You see, the actual money that you pay is used to buy CARTEL COINS. And you know the EXACT odds of whether you will get those coins... 100%. So that is a straight up purchase, no gambling involved. What you choose to spend those coins on, whether it is a specific item, unlock, or even a hypercrate is completely up to you. But at that point, you are no longer spending money. And furthermore, you "win" every time you open a hypercrate. You may not get the specific item you wanted, but you still get something. You can call that gambling if you want, but you are gambling with cartel coins, not with actual money.

QFE

I really don't know why the thread didn't stop here.

[MajikMyst]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding when it comes to what gambling is and whether or not its illegal.

 

as per Merriam Webster's

 

gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

 

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

 

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

 

 

So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future.

 

It is posts like this that remind me why our courts are full of frivolous law suits.. It also reminds me just how many people know so little about the law or it's definitions..

 

Just an FYI.. Many types of gambling are legal in all states but two.. Hawaii and Utah are the only two states that have made all forms of gambling illegal..

[Hyfy]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding when it comes to what gambling is and whether or not its illegal.

 

as per Merriam Webster's

 

gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

 

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

 

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

 

 

So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future.

 

Talk about an empty threat based off of an ignorant understanding of the product you are purchasing. First, you are receiving a set of goods for your purchase unlike ACTUAL gambling where you may lose an receive nothing. Second, the actual gambling portion of the cartel packs comes in the form of what item or items you may get from said packs whose "value" is based on arbitrary opinion. Since you are receiving goods for your purchase (which doesn't even require you to spend your own money with the monthly stipends being awarded) you would have no legal leg to stand on while attempting to extort money from Bioware/EA. You would also be opening yourself to, at a minimum, a counter-suit for their legal fees with the possibility of even more depending on how far their lawyers wished to proceed.

 

So in the words of the impeccable Clint Eastwood "You've got to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well? Do ya? ........Punk!"

Edited October 4, 2013 by Hyfy

[Hambunctious]

QFE

I really don't know why the thread didn't stop here.

 

He's wrong. CC is exchanged for real money. Which is exactly the same as changing money in Vegas for casino chips. Real money exchanged for them gives them a monetary value even if they can only be "spent" in the casino. In this case, EA's swtor is the casino.

 

The lack of logic some of you display is truly frightening.

[GARhenus]

i just realized that this is Copy And Paste To New Engine Guy

[LordArtemis]

You pay 15 bucks a month to gamble every time you kill a mob, waiting to see what, if anything, will drop.

 

You gamble when you enter an instance and kill a boss.

 

You gamble when you roll on a need or greed choice for loot.

 

MMO is gambling. It is at it's very core...it is a game of chance. You pay money to do this.

 

It is, frankly, the height of silliness to even suggest that cartel packs, or anything in the current game for that matter compares to illegal gambling.

 

Utah and Hawaii are the only states in the United States that ban almost all forms of gambling...yet both states have allowed MMOs to be played since inception.

 

Seems a pretty strong mandate to me.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

He's wrong. CC is exchanged for real money. Which is exactly the same as changing money in Vegas for casino chips. Real money exchanged for them gives them a monetary value even if they can only be "spent" in the casino. In this case, EA's swtor is the casino.

 

The lack of logic some of you display is truly frightening.

 

The only thing chips are for is gambling. Cartel coins are for buying any of the many items in the market. The boxes are just one possible choice that a customer can make, and unlike gambling every single box you open "wins" you various items. Therefore, your chip comparison is invalid, since chips cannot be used to purchase normal items at a casino, and you do not win in every single bet you make.

Edited October 4, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[LordArtemis]

He's wrong. CC is exchanged for real money. Which is exactly the same as changing money in Vegas for casino chips. Real money exchanged for them gives them a monetary value even if they can only be "spent" in the casino. In this case, EA's swtor is the casino.

 

The lack of logic some of you display is truly frightening.

 

The payout would have to be in Cartel Coins for it to have equivalency, and you would have to be able to convert those coins back into cash.

 

NEITHER is possible. You are equating arcade coins used to play games of chance and video games in a video game parlor to games of chance on the sunset strip.

 

There is no comparison.

[Hambunctious]

You pay 15 bucks a month to gamble every time you kill a mob, waiting to see what, if anything, will drop.

 

You gamble when you enter an instance and kill a boss.

 

You gamble when you roll on a need or greed choice for loot.

 

MMO is gambling. It is at it's very core...it is a game of chance. You pay money to do this.

 

It is, frankly, the height of silliness to even suggest that cartel packs, or anything in the current game for that matter compares to illegal gambling.

 

Utah and Hawaii are the only states in the United States that ban almost all forms of gambling...yet both states have allowed MMOs to be played since inception.

 

Seems a pretty strong mandate to me.

 

Noooo, it's not the same as gambling packs.

 

If you're referring to loot drops, you pay a monthly fee for rolls only limited by the number of times you choose to do it, or for raid drops, as many times as the weekly lockout allows. There is also guaranteed loot you get which can be exchanged for gear. For everything else you can farm 24/7 until you get what you want.

 

Gambling packs you pay per roll, just like a slot machine. The gambling packs also require a currency exchange every time you buy one.

 

If they were smart, they would make these packs drop as rare random loot, and require non-subscribers to buy a key to open them. Then they could say that the packs are available to every player through the normal loot system.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Hambunctious

[Hambunctious]

The payout would have to be in Cartel Coins for it to have equivalency, and you would have to be able to convert those coins back into cash.

 

NEITHER is possible. You are equating arcade coins used to play games of chance and video games in a video game parlor to games of chance on the sunset strip.

 

There is no comparison.

 

Japan agrees with my interpretation, and it's only a matter of time before others do as well.

[Hyfy]

He's wrong. CC is exchanged for real money. Which is exactly the same as changing money in Vegas for casino chips. Real money exchanged for them gives them a monetary value even if they can only be "spent" in the casino. In this case, EA's swtor is the casino.

 

The lack of logic some of you display is truly frightening.

 

The big difference though is that casino in Vegas, when you wager those chips, there is no guarantee of any kind of payout or equal value of goods in return. Unlike the cartel packs though you do receive a "payout" of items for said exchange of coins. While you are taking a gamble on what items will be present in that pack, you are receiving a set of goods that meets at least a bare minimum of a set value in return for the coins. The gamble is if you will receive an item or items that will be considered more desirable than others, which is based on arbitrary opinion and a perceived value assigned by potential purchasers.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Hyfy

[Rafaman]

i just realized that this is Copy And Paste To New Engine Guy

 

Heh. So... now its Copy and Paste from Websters. Where will it end?