ThiborF Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future. I think you should go right ahead and do just that, or at least try. Heck, I'll even suggest an attorney for you that has intimate knowledge of the gaming industry, Jack Thompson. I understand he's currently for a new legal avenue to attack the gaming industry for. But, don't attempt to file your case in FL as I don't think he has a license to practice there anymore. But by all means, regardless of the attorney you eventually convince to take on your case, PLEASE be sure to keep us up to date on the proceedings and your impending success in proving illegal gambling and/or racketeering against EA/Bioware. Now excuse me while I go buy stock in Orville Redenbacher as the amount of popcorn people will be buying while we anxiously await news of your success is going to push that stock to new heights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 He's "gambling" that the forum will agree with him. The odds do not appear to favor his "gamble" But I'm not going to accuse him of anything nefarious.. like.. racketeering. And we certainly wouldn't go so far as to accuse him/her of trollateering, would we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roysten Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Pretty sure its not gambling by any normal definition. Pretty sure it is a lottery with far from transparent chances of acquiring a desirable item. If folks want to chuck money at something with an unknown random chance that is calculated by an algorithm (true rng, forced rng, adjusted rng, who knows) more fool them. After all it is common practice to tinker with loot rng in mmos, so why not use the same tool kit to bleed people dry of cash instead of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 The difference between trading cards and gambling bags in an MMO is that trading cards are real. Everything in a gambling bag is imaginary. You can "win" a rare trading card, which is not much of a win, but you actually win something. If you win a gambling bag dice roll, you win nothing that is physically real. Do you have a point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Pretty sure its not gambling by any normal definition. Pretty sure it is a lottery with far from transparent chances of acquiring a desirable item. If folks want to chuck money at something with an unknown random chance that is calculated by an algorithm (true rng, forced rng, adjusted rng, who knows) more fool them. After all it is common practice to tinker with loot rng in mmos, so why not use the same tool kit to bleed people dry of cash instead of time. Definitely not gambling. The term we're looking for is "grab bag." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 They made money selling Cartel Coins, not Packs champ. That's called exploiting a loophole. The Cartel Coins are just a gimmick to bypass the legality of you paying actual dollars straight up for a gambling bag, which would literally be gambling, and likely illegal in a game where minors are allowed. Schemes like this have been going on since the dawn of time. Pay $10 for a mason jar, the moonshine in it is "free" so the seller can't be charged with selling alcohol illegally. At some point lawmakers will plug the loophole. As of now though, it's just small potatoes and nobody knows or cares about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So if its not gambling why don't they sell items individually on the cartel market? So if its not gambling, why don't they let me buy crates with hamburgers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Grand_Nagus Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So if its not gambling, why don't they let me buy crates with hamburgers? Unless you have tried, then you dont know that they wont. Buy a bag full of hamburgers, drive to their offices, and see if they will let you. Dont forget to take pictures to document your trip and prove you were actually there, because as we all know if there isnt a pic it didnt happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Fact: This is gambling Yes, it is "gambling". In that it is a video game implementation of a "grab bag" or "gumball machine" (See note below). Note that this makes it wholly inappropriate as the target of the legal definition of gambling. The devs have even commented that the packs are implemented as random item drops. In that way, the packs are just a more granular subset of paying a subscription and getting 9,000 random drops. It is not and cannot be gambling in the way the OP wants because cartel coins have no legal value and cannot be converted to currency by any standard mechanism. And so we're back to the original problem: The OP had a request (Show me the probabilities!) and then fabricated a completely silly and ultimately false justification for it. His request is now buried under the weight of everyone showing him how little he understands about his own argument. To be fair, I disagree with his request, but it would at least be worth a discussion. However, as with his last game demand, he has sabotaged his own thread by pretending he understands things he does not. (NOTE: Some other old RPGs have commented on their drop mechanism as a "gumball" algorithm, where you have a large pool of options and some mechanism picks one to deliver. You don't know what its going to be, but it will be something. The "grab bag" is directly analogous, but some people seem to understand the idea of a gumball machine a bit better.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorstram Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 There seems to be a big misunderstanding when it comes to what gambling is and whether or not its illegal. as per Merriam Webster's gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\ : to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things : to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet : to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future. Are you going to sue baseball card manufacturers for not posting the odds of getting valuable rare players? Are you going to sue Wizards of the Coast because the one unopened pack of Arabian Nights you were able to buy didn't have a Black Lotus? Those packs are very similar to packs of Magic the Gathering, and Wizards isn't required to post the odds of you getting a super rare foil card. So unless you plan on taking multiple genres of gaming to court, then you might as well just call this thread what it really is: QQ about not getting your varactyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 The Cartel Coins are just a gimmick to bypass the legality of you paying actual dollars straight up for a gambling bag, which would literally be gambling, and likely illegal in a game where minors are allowed. No. People have gone over this before. In order for it to be gambling, it has to require payment in order to take part in the "chance" event, and upon a "win" you must receive something that has greater value than what you paid. The rewards from packs have no legal value. Whether you pay for them in coins or dollars or Euro or bricks of Unobtainium, it is just a virtual game purchase, as the thing you purchased exists only within the game and has no value. As such, it is an entertainment purchase or an entertainment prize (similar to a carnival game prize) and you'll find that neither of those are illegal in the vast majority of the world --even when minors are playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imhotep Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Ugh more internet lawyering. Yeah you have google skills. File that suit and see how that works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imhotep Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 So unless you plan on taking multiple genres of gaming to court, then you might as well just call this thread what it really is: QQ about not getting your varactyl. I was thinking this very same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 If you guys are concerned about this, go about serious steps to report it to the authorities and bring about change in the industry. Also do not continue to support the companies with your money. At the VERY least, don't buy the packs. Just arguing about it on the forums will not get you anywhere. These type of things exist in a lot of games, as it was previously stated, until there is some movement to change the definitions of online gambling laws to include these types of things, it's all fine and legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicKat Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Are you going to sue baseball card manufacturers for not posting the odds of getting valuable rare players? Are you going to sue Wizards of the Coast because the one unopened pack of Arabian Nights you were able to buy didn't have a Black Lotus? Those packs are very similar to packs of Magic the Gathering, and Wizards isn't required to post the odds of you getting a super rare foil card. So unless you plan on taking multiple genres of gaming to court, then you might as well just call this thread what it really is: QQ about not getting your varactyl. Comparing to real world random chance bags is not really relevant. The thing all real world grab bags have in common is that even if you "lose" you get something. In an MMO you physically get nothing if you lose, or win for that matter. Anything you get in a CM gambling bag remains the property of EA. You cannot sell it for real cash and you cannot take it with you to another game. It essentially does not exist. They are selling the "thrill" of gambling without actually giving you any prize, which is why it is technically not gambling, though it certainly qualifies to the intent of gambling. Wording of the laws vs intent of the laws. It passes the wording part and the intent part doesn't matter since there is no actual prize to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 If you guys are concerned about this, go about serious steps to report it to the authorities and bring about change in the industry. He's not. He just wants his way and is willing to mis-represent definitions and toss about irrelevant terms to try and support his argument. Unfortunate, because I'd be supportive of a discussion about how to help players with gambling addictions play the game (note: the answer isn't removing all forms of gambling, just like the answer to alcoholism isn't prohibiting all alcohol sales) or about presenting the drop probabilities (note: you shouldn't). But we don't get to talk about those things because the OP decided to structure his argument based on false facts and illogical statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rankyn Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Spending coins for a chance to receive a random pack of items = gambling. Spending coins to receive a random pack of items = retail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 He's not. He just wants his way and is willing to mis-represent definitions and toss about irrelevant terms to try and support his argument. Unfortunate, because I'd be supportive of a discussion about how to help players with gambling addictions play the game (note: the answer isn't removing all forms of gambling, just like the answer to alcoholism isn't prohibiting all alcohol sales) or about presenting the drop probabilities (note: you shouldn't). But we don't get to talk about those things because the OP decided to structure his argument based on false facts and illogical statements. We already have that experience from his previous topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) First the thread on hiring interns to change the engine.. And now a thread to "prove" that packs are gambling and should be illegal. ...yet baseball card packs are not illegal. No one denies this is gambling but its not gambling that is regulated by state or federal law. Walking down the street is gambling. Everything in life is a gamble by the strictest of terms. Where does it end? Edited October 3, 2013 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Grand_Nagus Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 (edited) Spending coins for a chance to receive a random pack of items = gambling. Spending coins to receive a random pack of items = retail. Exactly There is no "chance" that you will receive the random pack of items. The "chance" is which items you get. Edited October 3, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Technically, it is gambling...but technically, it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNahash Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Technically, it is gambling...but technically, it's not. Technically, I agree but technically, I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Technically, I agree but technically, I don't. Technically, you're both misusing 'technically', but technically 'technically' doesn't have a strict definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hazed Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 Racketeering?!? seriously? At no point do I feel FORCED to buy said packs for anything other than my personal enjoyment. They are not REQUIRED to play the game, they are not required to be competitive. If I DON'T buy said packs, there is no CONSEQUENCES that would otherwise be imposed. since by definition a racket is forcing people to undertake an activity (protection) from the consequence that would otherwise be imposed from those performing the service. I think we could all agree that it could be called murder from all the people"who would just 'die' if they don't pull a rare mount or color crystal from these packs. Since not pulling it would be the end of their world..oh wait. I guess that would make it Armageddon. By making blanket crap armor designs drop in game and keeping the armor styles that actually have to do with the SW universe in packs they are effectively forcing you to gamble the CC you just bought on packs with a "chance" at getting the armor style or vehicle you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorstram Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Comparing to real world random chance bags is not really relevant. The thing all real world grab bags have in common is that even if you "lose" you get something. In an MMO you physically get nothing if you lose, or win for that matter. Anything you get in a CM gambling bag remains the property of EA. You cannot sell it for real cash and you cannot take it with you to another game. It essentially does not exist. They are selling the "thrill" of gambling without actually giving you any prize, which is why it is technically not gambling, though it certainly qualifies to the intent of gambling. Wording of the laws vs intent of the laws. It passes the wording part and the intent part doesn't matter since there is no actual prize to win. This is incorrect, Cosmic. The idea is the same. MTG card packs have one guaranteed rare in them. Now that rare most likely will not be something you want, but it's rare nevertheless. The packs in SWTOR have guaranteed rares inside of them, and you get a chance at a super rare item. So even if you "lose" at opening a pack in SWTOR, you will still have received a rare (silver) item. The idea of items in a video game being non-existent is also changing. The failed experiment of Diablo 3 used a real money auction house to sell rare items to others. In addition to that, there is a thriving black-market (Craig's list) where characters, items, and other game related derring-do are sold for real cash. This has become such a cash cow, that Sweden has started a transfer tax on cash sales of avatars, and the IRS is already auditing people who frequently sell on the Diablo 3 real money AH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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