Gambling is illegal

[Hyfy]

There's many underhanded things about the gambling bags.

 

- The odds are not disclosed. In the description of the packs it says how many of each common/rare/super-rare/etc that you get. Again it's not percentages but I'm sure there is some Rainman like person out there that can figure out the percentages from that.

- The odds are not regulated in any way. Of course they are. Not in percentages however the item types (IE prototype/artifact/etc) are dictated ahead of time

- The odds are set by the house. Goes right with point 2 I would argue.

- The odds could be true RNG derived, or they could be influenced by any external means. Example: If the "super rare" items have been spawned X times before, does that effect their chances of spawning again? With no reason to think otherwise it seems obvious that it would be RNG like everything else in the game, certainly not a logical stretch to come to that conclusion.

- The definition of what is rare, common, super rare etc. are set by the house. The rarity may or may not be tied to its actual odds of spawning. Example: A "super rare" item that is heavily in demand my not have the same odds of spawning as a "super rare" item that nobody wants. Common, rare, super rare....sure..but what is deemed wanted and "valuable" is completely arbitrary and decided by the purchaser and those people willing to pay what they believe fair market value is.

 

The only way this can be called anything but gambling is strictly lawyering semantics. Gambling in and of itself isn't inherently wrong or underhanded, but no government in the world would allow any actual gambling completely free of any oversight like employed in the MMO industry.

 

There are no lawyering semantics involved. You purchase the packs for a determined amount of coins, when you open the pack you are guaranteed a minimum return on your investment, that by virtue of its own definition says it's not actual gambling. As I've said before the only part of the process that can be considered gambling is in hoping that you get an item or items that are arbitrarily deemed valuable. Even then you are only gambling on what is going to be above and beyond the minimum fair value.

[Hyfy]

Bioware is working with the Illuminati!

 

Lol!!

[Screaming_Ziva]

He's wrong. CC is exchanged for real money. Which is exactly the same as changing money in Vegas for casino chips. Real money exchanged for them gives them a monetary value even if they can only be "spent" in the casino. In this case, EA's swtor is the casino.

 

The lack of logic some of you display is truly frightening.

You're comparing cartel coins to casino chips? How exactly can you win more cartel coins and how exactly can you cash out your cartel coins into dollars?

 

Seems like you're the one lacking logic here.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Screaming_Ziva

[krystianswtor]

That would explain why they havent implemented Pazaak.

[mikebevo]

Why should there be hypercrates in the first place?

To make money. The same reason the game was made in the first place. It isn't rocket science, companies are not charities, they are around to make money, to return their investors money and then some.

 

And yes, if the were remove they would hurt everyone involved. No money means no investors, no profit means they cut expenses, or even cut their losses totally. The F2P model would change and they would have to find over ways to boost revenues. The capital would decrease so there would not be new content as fast.

Edited October 4, 2013 by mikebevo

[Hazed]

Except, by the legal definition, it's not gambling. Even by a very loose definition, it's only the same type of 'gambling' that we allow Wizards of the Coast to get away with. Specifically with Magic the Gathering. For these packs to be considered truly predatory and true gambling, you'd need to be able to buy a pack, and get absolutely nothing. As in the pack is completely empty, nothing inside of it.

 

More to this point of the card analogy, it really is the same thing in different mediums. I can choose to pay for a booster pack from say, bobs comics, and -hope- I get that mythic rare Balefire dragon, but pull a shivan dragon instead. Both are at least rare, and I'm promised such when I buy the pack. Or, I could buy a Balefire from Bob, who owns the shop, but not the card game, for a price that he asks, which profits only him. Just like the GTN and these packs, I can choose to be a customer of bioware, buy coins and spend said coins on any number of packs chasing Revan's mask, or I can just buy one from Darth-Frank on the GTN for 25 million credits.

 

As for the science of this behavior, any substance can be considered addictive to a damaged mind, video games (as Nagus pointed out), television, drinking, smoking, eating certain foods, even healthy things like exercising and having a job can be considered addictive behavior if done in excess.

 

So it really does fall on personal responsibility, and in the case of the mentally affected (people with PTSD, Easily Addictive personalities, children (I mean young children, unable to buy a T rated game) etc.) persons, someone in the real world should be stepping in if their own personal case is that bad that they cannot resist clicking to buy coins to try and chase that high of opening packs.

 

Again though, at no point do I think these packs constitute real gambling, as you ALWAYS get something back.

 

Edit:

As per your remark about getting at least 2 mythic rares per box of MTG cards Hazed, the actual odds of pulling a mythic rare (depending on the set) range from 1:120 to 1:50. Meaning that if you were to buy a box of say, Zendikar? (where the odds on each pack are 1 in 120 of being a mythic rare) The chances are you'd not pull a single mythic rare (Which has happened to my roommate before) from that box, let alone 2.

 

Mythics are actually 1:8

 

http://mtg.wikia.com/wiki/Mythic_Rare

 

1:120 would be the chance of getting a particular mythic you want given the rares in a set

 

Rarity of Mythic Rares vs. Previous RaresEdit

Because of the 1 out of 8 chance per booster pack, mythic rares are more rare than even the best cards in previous non-mythic sets, despite the amount of rares per set in the older editions that would dilute the chance of getting a specific card. For example, if anybody was wanting to acquire a Damnation card from the Planar Chaos series, they would have a 1:50 chance of getting one from a single booster pack, since there is one rare per booster pack, and there are 50 rares in the series. However, to get a Lotus Cobra card, a mythic rare in the Zendikar series, a single booster pack only gives a 1:120 chance, since there are 15 mythic rares and a 1:8 chance per booster pack to get a mythic rare at all.

Here is a breakdown of odds in each set of getting a single rare or mythic rare card in a single booster pack

 

 

----------------------

 

 

I know some of you have your hearts in the right place, but this is NOT like a tcg.. those packs are something tangible that you can hold. They hold one value prior to being opened, and then each individual card has value even if its pennies.. furthermore, the cards can still be utilized to play a game (yes even RAZOR BOOMERANG!)

[Hazed]

No they are not forced to buy it. Because 99/100 times that item they are searching for is already on the GTN, they can work themselves in game to earn the credits to buy it. They can buy a few cartel packs and sell them on the GTN to buy the specific item you are looking for. Sorry but NO, Bioware is not forcing ANYONE to buy a Hypercrate. To suggest otherwise is silly and obtuse.

 

The only reason its on the GTN is because someone opened a crapton of hypercrates in order to pull what they wanted and they sell the rest.. so the only reason there is even a somewhat adequate supply of CM stuff on the GTN.. it only follows as a result of degenerate gambling.

[Hazed]

Manipulating someone into spending good portions of cash on packs on the chance they MIGHT get something good is pretty low handed, sure.

 

Manipulating a company into removing pack sales by threatening lawsuits, attempting to brand is as gambling or connecting it to addiction illnesses is just as underhanded IMO....considering the likely goal, IMO mind you, is to benefit players by allowing the items to be directly purchased.

 

THAT SAID, I do not care for the pack system they have. I therefore do not partake in the packs (though I think I have bought two in the past) and buy what I want on the GTN instead.

 

Would be nice if more items were direct sales...but in the end, if they are pulling in revenue that has positive flow based on the packs I will let them continue.

 

Are you a shareholder in EA.. cus if not................... WHY AGAIN DO YOU CARE ABOUT A COMPANIES PROFITS YOU NEITHER WORK FOR OR STAND TO GAIN MONEY FROM?

 

Your effectively telling me that EA making money is more important than doing the right thing by their customers

[Arkerus]

The only reason its on the GTN is because someone opened a crapton of hypercrates in order to pull what they wanted and they sell the rest.. so the only reason there is even a somewhat adequate supply of CM stuff on the GTN.. it only follows as a result of degenerate gambling.

 

What is degenerate gambling?

[Hazed]

There are no lawyering semantics involved. You purchase the packs for a determined amount of coins, when you open the pack you are guaranteed a minimum return on your investment, that by virtue of its own definition says it's not actual gambling. As I've said before the only part of the process that can be considered gambling is in hoping that you get an item or items that are arbitrarily deemed valuable. Even then you are only gambling on what is going to be above and beyond the minimum fair value.

 

Seriously, I do not want to believe you are a member of the United States Army

 

Did they not instill camaraderie and a sense of justice? Does this not go against all the Army values?

 

Better yet if you had a soldier in your unit would you let him spend his/her entire check on this kind of thing? Because let me be honest with ya sarge.. that's exactly whats going on here.

 

(and yeah im former Army.. still find it despicable your taking EA's side on anything.. especially with your training)

[Hazed]

What is degenerate gambling?

 

1. degenerate gambler

individual who possesses a one-way ticket to prison. who gambles not only their money and reputation, but also their sexual organs, their best friends, and their dreams by acting in ways which consequences forever ignite the most feared, internal nightmare. who consistently acts in ways that have proven unsavory time and time again in their past, yet who fail to yield the self-discipline and willpower in the present moment to learn a new way which most likely will lead to increased well-being. the only occasions that inspire them to attempt to make deep corrections to their internal affairs are hospitalization or the charge of felony. as much as you want to support the degenerate gambler because he or she is your friend, there comes a time when you must move on with your own hard-earned lifestyle and at the most, infrequently say a prayer for your ol' pal at the bedside.

your second cousin who now works for NASA may be a degenerate gambler.

 

c/p from: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=degenerate%20gambler

 

Degenerate gambling is what a degenerate gambler does

[Arkerus]

1. degenerate gambler

individual who possesses a one-way ticket to prison. who gambles not only their money and reputation, but also their sexual organs, their best friends, and their dreams by acting in ways which consequences forever ignite the most feared, internal nightmare. who consistently acts in ways that have proven unsavory time and time again in their past, yet who fail to yield the self-discipline and willpower in the present moment to learn a new way which most likely will lead to increased well-being. the only occasions that inspire them to attempt to make deep corrections to their internal affairs are hospitalization or the charge of felony. as much as you want to support the degenerate gambler because he or she is your friend, there comes a time when you must move on with your own hard-earned lifestyle and at the most, infrequently say a prayer for your ol' pal at the bedside.

your second cousin who now works for NASA may be a degenerate gambler.

 

c/p from: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=degenerate%20gambler

 

Degenerate gambling is what a degenerate gambler does

 

Urban dictionary...lol...that's not a source.

 

 

Anyway. What does that type of gambling have to do with packs? Are you saying everyone who buys them is a degenerate gambler? How about a person who buy 2? How about 5?

 

Just wondering how to divide the degenerates from the non degenerates. If you could get me a pamphlet or something it will help.

 

I used to buy baseball cards. I feel I may be degenerate since I spent my allowance on it. What do you think?

[Hazed]

Urban dictionary...lol...that's not a source.

 

 

Anyway. What does that type of gambling have to do with packs? Are you saying everyone who buys them is a degenerate gambler? How about a person who buy 2? How about 5?

 

Just wondering how to divide the degenerates from the non degenerates. If you could get me a pamphlet or something it will help.

 

I used to buy baseball cards. I feel I may be degenerate since I spent my allowance on it. What do you think?

 

I am talking about the people spending hundreds of dollars a week on hypercrates

 

they wouldnt have to buy that many packs if they had legitimate odds of containing the item they are looking for.

 

For example:

If I am EA I could

1. chage say 4k cartel coins for a limited edition suit of armor that is only available for 1 week maybe 2..

or

2. I could put that suit in a pack charge 400 or so CC and give people a .00000000001% (Don't know the actual percentage but i'll just assume its that low)

 

option 2 brings in a bunch more revenue.. but what kind of people do you think are taking those risks?

[Imhotep]

Seriously, I do not want to believe you are a member of the United States Army

 

Did they not instill camaraderie and a sense of justice? Does this not go against all the Army values?

 

Better yet if you had a soldier in your unit would you let him spend his/her entire check on this kind of thing? Because let me be honest with ya sarge.. that's exactly whats going on here.

 

(and yeah im former Army.. still find it despicable your taking EA's side on anything.. especially with your training)

 

If this stuff bothers you so much why are you here??? You have obviously bought into the Corporations are Evil koolaid. Im surprised you were in the military to be honest. You have a semi political axe to grind here and its very obvious. If you don't like the gambling aspect of this then don't participate, but don't try and demand regulation for something that is honestly none of your business.

[ImpactHound]

Urban dictionary...lol...that's not a source.

 

Sure it is, how else would you expect to verify what exactly an "amazon firefighter" is?

[AlexDougherty]

c/p from: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=degenerate%20gambler

 

Degenerate gambling is what a degenerate gambler does

 

Ummm, no! The term Degenerate Gambler consists of two parts, Gambler: one who gambles, and Degenerate:mental, physical or moral decline or one who suffers from it.

Degenerate

 

The Degenerate part is an adjective, it alters the noun gambler, but it can not be affixed to gambling in the same way because gambling is a verb. The activity itself would have to deteriorate for the term degenerate gambling to be viable.

[ImperialSun]

There seems to be a big misunderstanding when it comes to what gambling is and whether or not its illegal.

 

as per Merriam Webster's

 

gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\

: to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things

 

: to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet

 

: to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something

 

 

So either post the "odds" of getting something specific in a cartel pack or you will be sued in the very near future.

 

Yes OP and the mis understanding appears to lie with you..../shrug

 

Here endeth the lesson...

 

Tell you what, I bet you 2 months mortgage that you are wrong and EA/BW are not breaking any laws here?

 

Driz

Edited October 4, 2013 by ImperialSun

[ThiborF]

Are you a shareholder in EA.. cus if not................... WHY AGAIN DO YOU CARE ABOUT A COMPANIES PROFITS YOU NEITHER WORK FOR OR STAND TO GAIN MONEY FROM?

 

Your effectively telling me that EA making money is more important than doing the right thing by their customers

 

Ahem, them making money is one of the right things they need to do for their customers because if they are unable to make money, this whole thing gets shutdown. Take your eyes off that square inch of bark on that one tree in front of your nose (ie. the RNG on that one item you're upset that you haven't got yet from buying Cartel packs) and try to see the forest around it for a change.

[AlexDougherty]

I am talking about the people spending hundreds of dollars a week on hypercrates

 

they wouldnt have to buy that many packs if they had legitimate odds of containing the item they are looking for.

 

For example:

If I am EA I could

1. chage say 4k cartel coins for a limited edition suit of armor that is only available for 1 week maybe 2..

or

2. I could put that suit in a pack charge 400 or so CC and give people a .00000000001% (Don't know the actual percentage but i'll just assume its that low)

 

option 2 brings in a bunch more revenue.. but what kind of people do you think are taking those risks?

 

If someone spends that much money on fluff, then they should not be playing. In fact if they have that little self-control they should not have a credit or debit card, and therefore be unable to buy cartel coins.

 

PS. last time I checked EA had limits to how many Cartel coins someone could buy at a time, so they are taking steps to prevent people from spending all their money.

Edited October 4, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Drake_Hound]

Sure it is, how else would you expect to verify what exactly an "amazon firefighter" is?

 

A wellbuild musclar female fireman

 

Hahaha sorry I just had to laugh XD

 

So don't mind me

[Hazed]

If this stuff bothers you so much why are you here??? You have obviously bought into the Corporations are Evil koolaid. Im surprised you were in the military to be honest. You have a semi political axe to grind here and its very obvious. If you don't like the gambling aspect of this then don't participate, but don't try and demand regulation for something that is honestly none of your business.

 

I support my country as I was sworn to do..

 

I do not have a political axe to grind, in fact I think our current political system is safe and sound. I don't care if your a democrat or republican.. I am a Libertarian who understands social responsibility.

 

I do have a problem with corporate greed though especially when it crosses the line into activities which are not only distasteful, but illegal.

[ThiborF]

Seriously, I do not want to believe you are a member of the United States Army

 

Did they not instill camaraderie and a sense of justice? Does this not go against all the Army values?

 

Better yet if you had a soldier in your unit would you let him spend his/her entire check on this kind of thing? Because let me be honest with ya sarge.. that's exactly whats going on here.

 

(and yeah im former Army.. still find it despicable your taking EA's side on anything.. especially with your training)

 

Oh, you mean GAMING ADDICTION then.

For a minute (okay ... 40+ pages) I thought you were talking about gambling. Instead, what you actually have is a developer creating a game environment that contains elements which can be purchased for RL cash. A player's sense of how important these virtual elements are to them is going to vary wildly from the apathetic to cosmetic items to the obsessive-compulsive game addict.

 

Now then, if you want to have a study conducted by a legitimate research facility to show that the same areas of the brain and the same chemical reactions occur when someone wins at black jack and someone gets whatever rare item from a Cartel pack, power to you.

There actually may very well be a link.

But the common link you're looking at is addiction in of itself, not the activity.

 

At which point, whether you want to pursue litigation because you emptied your bank account buying Cartel packs or because after spending 100hrs of week for the last 2yrs sitting on your but and you've now gained 150# and have type 2 diabetes as a result, essentially amounts to the same thing. That being one's addiction to a game has resulted in unhealthy/unwise choices.

[Hazed]

Ahem, them making money is one of the right things they need to do for their customers because if they are unable to make money, this whole thing gets shutdown. Take your eyes off that square inch of bark on that one tree in front of your nose (ie. the RNG on that one item you're upset that you haven't got yet from buying Cartel packs) and try to see the forest around it for a change.

 

I want them to come up with better ways of money.. like bringing back the playerbase through new content etc..

 

not milking the same people over and over on the CM.

 

More people would spend money if the items were sold individually.. they just wouldn't make half brained purchases.

 

Maybe some of you are ok with people around you being idiots, but I am not.

[Drake_Hound]

If someone spends that much money on fluff, then they should not be playing. In fact if they have that little self-control they should not have a credit or debit card, and therefore be unable to buy cartel coins.

 

PS. last time I checked EA had limits to how many Cartel coins someone could buy at a time, so they are taking steps to prevent people from spending all their money.

 

why not some people earn 10k a month , have 6k disposable income .. They can use it the way they see it .

Others earn 10k only have 1k disposable income , yeah those moan it is unfair .

 

But in the end nobody is equal in spending , or salary issues let alone expenditures of there hard earned money .

stop begging for handouts , when some people have it beter in life !

Cause it just the way things work .

[Hazed]

Oh, you mean GAMING ADDICTION then.

For a minute (okay ... 40+ pages) I thought you were talking about gambling. Instead, what you actually have is a developer creating a game environment that contains elements which can be purchased for RL cash. A player's sense of how important these virtual elements are to them is going to vary wildly from the apathetic to cosmetic items to the obsessive-compulsive game addict.

 

Now then, if you want to have a study conducted by a legitimate research facility to show that the same areas of the brain and the same chemical reactions occur when someone wins at black jack and someone gets whatever rare item from a Cartel pack, power to you.

There actually may very well be a link.

But the common link you're looking at is addiction in of itself, not the activity.

 

At which point, whether you want to pursue litigation because you emptied your bank account buying Cartel packs or because after spending 100hrs of week for the last 2yrs sitting on your but and you've now gained 150# and have type 2 diabetes as a result, essentially amounts to the same thing. That being one's addiction to a game has resulted in unhealthy/unwise choices.

 

People already have a predisposition for risk vs reward scenarios

 

EA is playing off peoples emotions and enticing them to take "risks" (gambling) in order to make money.

 

 

Also for those arguing about sports and TCG packs.. let me put it like this

sports: players develop over time and some cards change in value over time.. who is hot today is not who is hot tomorrow

TCG: even if they removed all Mythic Rares from MTG there would still be a demand for it.. Mythics were added to give it that "chase" feel. It was never the original plan.