Gambling is illegal

[Rafaman]

He's wrong. CC is exchanged for real money. Which is exactly the same as changing money in Vegas for casino chips. Real money exchanged for them gives them a monetary value even if they can only be "spent" in the casino. In this case, EA's swtor is the casino.

 

The lack of logic some of you display is truly frightening.

 

And this is why these threads go on and on. It's ok. I must admit I enjoy it from time to time.

 

Hambu, It isn't the same for many reasons. But the simplest and most efficient way to explain how they are different is this: You can not exchange your coins for real cash. No cash out when you are done shopping. So, they don't have real monetary value. It is not a direct relationship as you seem to imply. Why? Because you can not turn them into cash. A big difference there.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Rafaman

[Hyfy]

And this is why these threads go on and on. It's ok. I must admit I enjoy it from time to time.

 

Hambu, It isn't the same for many reasons. But simplest and most efficient way to explain how they are different is this: You can not exchange your coins for real cash. No cash out when you are done shopping. So, they don't have real monetary value. It is not a direct relationship as you seem to imply. Why? Because you can not turn them into cash. A big difference there.

 

It's more basic then that even though. In Vegas or Atlantic City or the Indian Casino or wherever you are at, when you make that bet when you spend those chips or coins there is no guarantee that you will get anything in return. Unlike the cartel packs where you will ABSOLUTELY receive a set of items in return for your coins. The gambling aspect is in the amount of perceived value above and beyond the baseline value that you may or may not receive but will not be lower than.

[TandyUK]

Pretty much got this covered already. You find so many things to poke at its ridiculous. What kids have credit cards anyway? Not many as they can't legally hold them without an adult signature or co account holder. Same for check cards with a visa logo.

 

Its not kids being targetted, its the grown up kids with learning difficulties and the ability to get credit cards (the first time anyways...).

Just rephrase the legalese to "exploitation of vulnerable adults", and I wonder if you would in fact have a viable case.

[MillionsKNives]

Japan agrees with my interpretation, and it's only a matter of time before others do as well.

 

That's nice. Last I checked EA wasn't based in Japan.

[Hambunctious]

Its not kids being targetted, its the grown up kids with learning difficulties and the ability to get credit cards (the first time anyways...).

Just rephrase the legalese to "exploitation of vulnerable adults", and I wonder if you would in fact have a viable case.

 

It would be harder in this country, because the government only cares about things they can tax. A citizen of Britain might be able to pull it off before anyone in the US.

 

I've said in another similar thread that it has been proven that gambling produces chemicals in the brain that effect many people in a such a way that they're less able to stop gambling, and lose any sense of monetary loss. Which, in a way, means that they can't help themselves, and it is contrary to their well being.

 

Everyone is effected to some degree by these chemicals, as it has similar effects to having used cocaine, and people can literally become addicted to it.

 

In effect, MMOs who use gambling pack systems are exploiting people's brain chemistry, and some of those people truly cannot stop themselves from partaking. These people are what Vegas calls whales.

 

Someone could make claims based on science that gambling packs in MMOs are too accessible, can cause an addiction, that the companies know that people are affected in a way that predisposes them to gamble more, and that it's bad for a person's well being.

 

If you get informed mothers involved in something like this, there's no telling what would happen.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Hambunctious

[Elly_Dawn]

just like cigarette smoking, drug addiction, and alcoholism is a disease, give me a break, that's just personal weakness that anyone can overcome if they choose to... i've done coke, i've been on a month long bender, and i quit both just fine, no higher power or rehab did it for me... sure detoxing sux but once you're past that it gets easier, the problem is detoxing sux and no-one wants to do it because admittedly being high or drunk is way more fun than detoxing... the same goes for gambling or street racing, you get the rush and want to do it again, you don't have to but you want to... people that can't say no just don't want any personal accountability, they need something else to blame other than themselves, so they say the drugs, or the brain chemicals, or the devil made me do it...

[Hyfy]

It would be harder in this country, because the government only cares about things they can tax. A citizen of Britain might be able to pull it off before anyone in the US.

 

I've said in another similar thread that it has been proven that gambling produces chemicals in the brain that effect many people in a such a way that they're less able to stop gambling, and lose any sense of monetary loss. Which, in a way, means that they can't help themselves, and it is contrary to their well being.

 

Everyone is effected to some degree by these chemicals, as it has similar effects to having used cocaine, and people can literally become addicted to it.

 

In effect, MMOs who use gambling pack systems are exploiting people's brain chemistry, and some of those people truly cannot stop themselves from partaking. These people are what Vegas calls whales.

 

Someone could make claims based on science that gambling packs in MMOs are too accessible, can cause an addiction, that the companies know that people are affected in a way that predisposes them to gamble more, and that it's bad for a person's well being.

 

If you get informed mothers involved in something like this, there's no telling what would happen.

 

Personal responsibility. Why must it be either everyone else's fault or the responsibility of the government to "protect" people in these situations? People need to start taking responsibility for themselves, that is really the long and short of it. Don't get me wrong I'm not necessarily saying you are advocating that but I feel it warrants being said at this point.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

just like cigarette smoking, drug addiction, and alcoholism is a disease, give me a break, that's just personal weakness that anyone can overcome if they choose to... i've done coke, i've been on a month long bender, and i quit both just fine, no higher power or rehab did it for me... sure detoxing sux but once you're past that it gets easier, the problem is detoxing sux and no-one wants to do it because admittedly being high or drunk is way more fun than detoxing... the same goes for gambling or street racing, you get the rush and want to do it again, you don't have to but you want to... people that can't say no just don't want any personal accountability, they need something else to blame other than themselves, so they say the drugs, or the brain chemicals, or the devil made me do it...

 

There is no denying that self control is a big part of it. But there are real mental illnesses and psychological disorders, and many of them can effect how strong a person's self control is. Someone who is not completely "there" mentally is not going to be able to resist things that someone who is can. Some folks are simply born with disabilities/disorders, while others have developed them through tramatic life experiences(such as some war veterans, or some people who were abused as a child, etc).

Edited October 4, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[Hyfy]

just like cigarette smoking, drug addiction, and alcoholism is a disease, give me a break, that's just personal weakness that anyone can overcome if they choose to... i've done coke, i've been on a month long bender, and i quit both just fine, no higher power or rehab did it for me... sure detoxing sux but once you're past that it gets easier, the problem is detoxing sux and no-one wants to do it because admittedly being high or drunk is way more fun than detoxing... the same goes for gambling or street racing, you get the rush and want to do it again, you don't have to but you want to... people that can't say no just don't want any personal accountability, they need something else to blame other than themselves, so they say the drugs, or the brain chemicals, or the devil made me do it...

 

Well like I was saying in my post above this one, personal responsibility. Sounds like you found that one out for yourself, and more power to you and congrats to you on that.

[Hyfy]

There is no denying that self control is a big part of it. But there are real mental illnesses and psychological disorders, and many of them can effect how strong a person's self control is. Someone who is not completely "there" mentally is not going to be able to resist things that someone who is can. Some folks are simply born with disabilities/disorders, while others have developed them through tramatic life experiences(such as some war veterans, or some people who were abused as a child, etc).

 

So Bioware must stop selling items to people who don't have the self control issues because some people can't take care of themselves? It's Biowares responsibility to police those people up? No. That's like blaming Ben and Jerry's for making someone fat. Should I have to stop eating the ice cream too? Yes these questions seem rhetorical, but it really is the next logical progression in the questioning.

[Hambunctious]

I dunno, it's pretty hard to disprove the science of it. Just like it's a fact that many alcoholics have brains that are naturally deficient in dopamine which alcohol calms by binding to the dopamine receptors.

 

Gambling does cause the brain to produce more dopamine, as well as norepinephrine , and serotonin. All of which are involved in addictive behaviors.

[Hyfy]

I dunno, it's pretty hard to disprove the science of it. Just like it's a fact that many alcoholics have brains that are naturally deficient in dopamine which alcohol calms by binding to the dopamine receptors.

 

Gambling does cause the brain to produce more dopamine, as well as norepinephrine , and serotonin. All of which are involved in addictive behaviors.

 

Who said the science is wrong? You're changing the subject. Why should I be made to stop buying them or Bioware made to stop selling them because someone else has a problem. Again PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. take responsibility for your own actions and stop expecting others to either stop you or for big brother to protect you from yourself. And I mean you as a generic you and not you specifically.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

So Bioware must stop selling items to people who don't have the self control issues because some people can't take care of themselves?

 

So you think murdering people is ok? That there is nothing wrong with killing people just for fun? If you are wondering what the heck I am talking about, I am replying to something you DIDNT say. Why would I do something so utterly ridiculous? Because thats exactly what you just did to me. I never said Bioware should stop what they are doing, but your question implies I did. Therefore I am showing you just how ridiculous that is by asking you a question based on something you never said either. Moving on...

 

The only reason I said what I did is because the post I was replying to was implying that people can simply stop any kind of negative behavior if they just want to. Unfortunately some people truly do have mental disabilities or psychological disorders that make it harder than that. Unless you have been diagnosed with a mental disability, or are a veteran with PTSD, or are someone who was abused as a child, then you really have no idea how those types of things effect your decision making.

 

But to be completely clear, I do not think Bioware is obligated to change anything they are doing just because there are people out there who have a hard time making the right decisions.

Edited October 4, 2013 by The_Grand_Nagus

[LordArtemis]

Japan agrees with my interpretation, and it's only a matter of time before others do as well.

 

Fair enough...I understand your view and it's not completely out there, but I think that it has been established many times in the courts in the US that nothing in the Freemium system, including gambling packs is gambling.

 

Again, gambling is betting on a hedge...a chance to increase your original investment. That is the crux of gambling and it's definition in the US. You put something of value in, and you have a chance of getting something of higher value out.

 

Most states were very clear to indicate REAL WORLD value, as in currency. If you buy tokens, gamble with tokens and get tickets that you can turn in for prizes, that is not gambling according to most states. If you buy a bingo card, win and receive a prize that can not be sold for cash...for instance a certificate in your name that gives you a dinner at a restaurant or theme park tickets, that is not considered gambling.

 

Nor is paying for coins in an arcade, even if the winning payout is paid in coins, because those coins are non refundable.

 

You must be able to pay out a set value with a chance to gain back a higher value in real world currency for it to be considered gambling...since the value of electronic items is speculative, it falls under the rulings for arcade gambling...

 

And therefore is not considered gambling in the courts in almost every case.

[WestXv]

I'm seeing quite a bit of social Darwinism in this thread which disappoints me greatly.

[Hambunctious]

Who said the science is wrong? You're changing the subject. Why should I be made to stop buying them or Bioware made to stop selling them because someone else has a problem. Again PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. take responsibility for your own actions and stop expecting others to either stop you or for big brother to protect you from yourself. And I mean you as a generic you and not you specifically.

 

 

 

That's the thing isn't it? They can't stop without help. They're also available to everyone with no regard to those that have a vulnerable brain chemistry. Even those who might not become addicted are still vulnerable to binge gambling, because your behavior is determined by the chemicals in your brain.

 

Yeah, they can be made to stop. It's exploitation under the guise of a video game.

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Yeah, they can be made to stop. It's exploitation under the guise of a video game.

 

Bars can be made to stop selling alcohol. Stores can be made to stop selling cigarettes. Anything that can be considered negative or addictive can have a law passed making that illegal. The question is not whether it is possible to stop something, but whether it should be stopped. There are obviously people in the world who have problems, as my previous post discussed. The question is whether the world should be designed to cater to those type of people, or to society as a whole.

[Hambunctious]

Bars can be made to stop selling alcohol. Stores can be made to stop selling cigarettes. Anything that can be considered negative or addictive can have a law passed making that illegal. The question is not whether it is possible to stop something, but whether it should be stopped. There are obviously people in the world who have problems, as my previous post discussed. The question is whether the world should be designed to cater to those type of people, or to society as a whole.

 

Except most of those are regulated, or have some kind of government control. MMO gambling packs are not.

[LordArtemis]

So, are we talking about the exploitative nature of packs?

[The_Grand_Nagus]

Except most of those are regulated, or have some kind of government control. MMO gambling packs are not.

 

So called regulations asside, lets be blunt. What is really going to stop someone with an addiction or mental problem from buying alcohol or cigarettes or simply wasting their money that they need for food on senseless things? Unless you are proposing that a person be given a psychological evaluation before every purchase, then the answer to my previous question is "nothing". Likewise, unless everyone who plays this game is forced to take a psych eval first then there will never be a practical way to regulate spending based on possible psychological issues. But if you think that you have the magic solution that doesnt punish the normal player, then by all means share it.

[Hambunctious]

How do you figure anyone is being punished by changing, or removing gambling packs?

 

They can still make money by offering items individually.

 

They can still make money by making the packs drop as random loot, and charging to open them. That will limit the number of packs available at any one time, and give people a cooling off period in between.

[Hyfy]

So you think murdering people is ok? That there is nothing wrong with killing people just for fun? If you are wondering what the heck I am talking about, I am replying to something you DIDNT say. Why would I do something so utterly ridiculous? Because thats exactly what you just did to me. I never said Bioware should stop what they are doing, but your question implies I did. Therefore I am showing you just how ridiculous that is by asking you a question based on something you never said either. Moving on...

 

The only reason I said what I did is because the post I was replying to was implying that people can simply stop any kind of negative behavior if they just want to. Unfortunately some people truly do have mental disabilities or psychological disorders that make it harder than that. Unless you have been diagnosed with a mental disability, or are a veteran with PTSD, or are someone who was abused as a child, then you really have no idea how those types of things effect your decision making.

 

But to be completely clear, I do not think Bioware is obligated to change anything they are doing just because there are people out there who have a hard time making the right decisions.

 

Comprehension problem? I didn't say you said that, I said that those questions become the next logical progression. Moving on....

[Hyfy]

That's the thing isn't it? They can't stop without help. They're also available to everyone with no regard to those that have a vulnerable brain chemistry. Even those who might not become addicted are still vulnerable to binge gambling, because your behavior is determined by the chemicals in your brain.

 

Yeah, they can be made to stop. It's exploitation under the guise of a video game.

 

Yes they can stop on their own, but they have to want to. I was a smoker for many years, one day about 3 years ago at the gas station about to buy another pack I turned around walked out the door without buying them and never smoked again. Was it tough at first? Yep, but I wanted to quit. I had my doctor telling me to quit. The doctor on base that did our physicals kept telling me to, my mom kept telling me to, didn't matter. I had to want to and until that time that I wanted to people could plead and plead all they wanted, it didn't matter.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Hyfy

[The_Grand_Nagus]

How do you figure anyone is being punished by changing, or removing gambling packs?

 

How would anyone be punished by removing alcohol or cigarettes or anything considered negative or addictive? Like I said before, the question is whether the world should be designed to cater to people who may have certain problems at the expense of taking the freedom of choice away from those who dont. If someone doesnt have a gambling addiction and simply wants to buy a hypercrate, why shouldnt they be able to?

[Hyfy]

How would anyone be punished by removing alcohol or cigarettes or anything considered negative or addictive? Like I said before, the question is whether the world should be designed to cater to people who may have certain problems at the expense of taking the freedom of choice away from those who dont. If someone doesnt have a gambling addiction and simply wants to buy a hypercrate, why shouldnt they be able to?

 

That was the point I was trying to make. And why I said the next logical progression of questions become, do we remove my ability to buy them because someone else has a gambling problem. Should Bioware be forced to stop selling the packs because some people have a hard time not clicking on the "buy cartel coins" button? The answer as far as I'm concerned to both of those is NO. People need to have personal responsibility.