Now that BW has actually listened to our outcries...

[Xinika]

How does it make you feel?

 

/Reserved

[senatorkn]

Well...i will miss self healing from Darkness Tree. But atleast BW workin with tank spikeness. Part about Deception just joke ... so now in PVP 90% or even more Sins/Shadows playin this FOTM and its gonna be even worse... n1... and ofc this HUUUUUUGE buff to Madness just make wanna leave this game T_T

It was pleasure to see all Deception heroes cryin about sustain dmg when they have one of the biggest bursts in game and now ... this spec gonna get buff ... seems legit

[-DG-]

With a try at nice wording... It sux.

 

 

I rather take the danger of being spiked to death and keep "my" self heals. Without it, it's a lot closer to the Guard/Jugg class. I'm one of those who "love" hybrid classes. If I play in a rather "normal relaxed" way, I'll do better with guard/jugg and van/pt - but when I really concentrate and focus 150%(actually mentally tough) ... well then "stuff" happens(wonderfull stuff, often enough).

 

Obviously the loss of the self healing won't in itself change the whole class. But the FEEL of the whole class(Shadow/Assasin) would become something else, for me.

 

Since I(as many other people) get notable attached to my main class and main character - such a "little" change might ruin the whole game experience for me. While it possibly ain't so, it sure feel like we got "what we deserved" - "you whiny little bunch... TAKE THIS!".

 

I don't want to have a "normalized" and "streamlined" tank class/character as main class/character.

 

 

//disappointed

 

/EDIT

Of course I'd like to keep the tank tree as is AND get some minor tweak to take place to reduce the spikyness.

 

//EDIT 2

I'm mainly concerned with the passive stance heal, and somewhat less concerned about high-tank-tree-spec X3 proc and heal on demand.

[-DG-]

Xinika, I'd like to remind you about you not only being a "class representative", but also a "representative of the People playing a certain class". I think you know the difference as well as the synergy.

 

While I nor no one else, probably, have or even could get accurate numbers of the people thinking/feeling This or That. It could be seen as safe to assume that Quite many people play the class because of it's lore, because of it's own uniqueness(tank class with small amount of self healing and stealth), because of the feel of the class, because of the story(lots of healing)... and a few other things(like the heal relics, I kinda enjoy that bit, and so does several other people).

... thus one could argue that a representative would also take All these people(and their thoughts and feelings) into consideration. Don't you think?

 

I'm not a cruncher of numbers, I'm rather a cruncher of minds(lol) and as you may already know... "feelings often enough, do not care about logic"(exists both good and bad sides/consequences because of this, thats another story though). Thus in this aspect you might have to be open about this/these perspective, as well as Also put the numbers aside, to a degree.

 

Bioware have made this game, of course Bioware got the potential to "fix" the spikyness of Shadows/Assassins - while still letting the class keep the healing in the tank stance(as well as the proc X3 on demand heal). Surely it won't be something overly trivial. But quite possible within reason - yes, thats highly likely. Well... fixing it "here and now" probably ain't that much of a hassle, but I mean over time, as the class, gear and game evolves.

 

Please consider my words.

[Grumpftard]

it sure feel like we got "what we deserved" - "you whiny little bunch... TAKE THIS!"

 

While, so far, I'm personally liking the changes.(not everyone does, but I think they will be great)... I totally agree with your statement.

 

We asked for a Spike fix and we got it.

This definitely falls into the category of "Be careful what you wish for!"

[-DG-]

While, so far, I'm personally liking the changes.(not everyone does, but I think they will be great)... I totally agree with your statement.

 

We asked for a Spike fix and we got it.

This definitely falls into the category of "Be careful what you wish for!"

Sorry, my attempt at irony might not have been obvious(or just might be my phrasing of it, since english ain't my 1th language). I'll try make it more obvious next time.

 

And no, I never asked to get ridd of self heals(but yeah, some people did that, in some manner).

[Trollokdamus]

Not a fan of tanking changes at all. To me it sounds like "let's go the easiest way, make sins/shadows same as other tanks, who cares if we get rid of their uniqueness along the way". If they would be willing to put some effort, they would've come up with a solution which does not involve removing self healing.

 

If the problem is "This actually made them considerably better than other tanks when spike damage was not present, and considerably worse when it was.", then they could've just scaled healing down a bit to put sins/shadows in line with other tanks for non-spike situations, and for spikes just implement an ability that instantly heals you and puts an absorbing shield, something like Death Knights have in WoW.

 

It just annoys me how they say that it's impossible to balance a self healing tank, while other games do it successfully.

 

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

[Mordranon]

Yay, class homogenization, this is what players who roll darkness assassin always wanted. Hell yeah!

I wasnt already feeling insulted at all by the hideous pink dark ward animation or the two previous massive class nerfs. I didnt feel insulted when I lost almost 10 percent of my armor based mitigation when ROTHC launched because devs felt it would be fun to make us more dependant on a newly balanced and poorly tested proc based shield mitigation. How do I know it was poorly tested? Because Bioware tested it. Also, because it did not work very well, and we had to cry and moan and go on and on about it even though it was really obvious. And noone was willing to take up the cause or do jack crap to fix it until the class representative crap.

 

Heres the question that needs answering, are we going to be removing heals from dps sorc, operative, marauder and mercenary? Because they also diminish the value of a healers group role? No dev response? No talk about how one dps classes heals set them apart from another? Thats what I thought, because the logic of saying that our self heals will cause us to have a huge advantage over other tanks is flawed heavily, they just didnt want to do the math. It is highly illogical. Also, they are self excusing past ignoring fools. Why they would not look at Dark Ward and the way our shield reliance affects pve/pvp spikiness and try and balance that is beyond me, especially when they implemented the damned crap. It lets me know that removing our self heals was either part of a predetermined agenda within the dev team, or a product of being epic lazy.

 

So thanks for that Bioware. Thanks again for another insulting design choice. I like the game, but I have some real harsh thoughts and questions about the people running it. At least I am not alone in that. clap clap...Im out!

 

Caligulas-Jung Ma

 

I feel bad for venting on the game forums, and my apologies to you all, but really the only time I post is when I have something to attack or defend strongly.

[Rilok_Singz]

BW did something right imo. There was a good reason why nobody but guardians did the main tanking in both pvp and pve. its nice they are giving some love to shadows. I know in ranked pvp that self heal didnt mean s*** and thats if I even had the chance to use it between guard switching, taunting, and dodging aoe's so bumping up my armor is the next best thing

[Xinika]

Xinika, I'd like to remind you about you not only being a "class representative", but also a "representative of the People playing a certain class". I think you know the difference as well as the synergy.

... thus one could argue that a representative would also take All these people(and their thoughts and feelings) into consideration. Don't you think?)

Your point concerning lore is a fair topic to the table. Truthfully speaking because of 'lore' aspects, I main the class. That being said, however, lore can only go so far. Thing is, Lore caused many of us, myself included to be blinded by true capability. A lot of Shadow / Sin users were deluded by the 'coolness' factor of the class, forgoing how its true endgame performance worked.

 

Homogenization is evil, but a necessary one in the case of Shadows. If you pay attention to the history of this game, Shadows were certainly the most unique and flexible class in the early era. As time progressed, more and more of their uniqueness was shared to other classes, slowly but surely whittling the Shadow's niche to the point where we have it today. Our cool factor remains but our top notch performance is suboptimal in comparison to what other pure classes can dish out.

 

Also, the whole design of a lone wolf is flawed in an MMO game. As long as this game remains a group effort, or arenas being 4v4, 8v8, then the design of a 'lone wolf' fails from a technical standpoint. If a class is only geared to play solo with no, shall we say, rewarding solo options - then that is why it needs homogenization. Don't get me wrong, it's very possible to still retain the feeling of being a 'lone wolf', but at the same time forge the class well enough to perform up to group standards.

 

BW is taking a step in that direction. It's not perfect, but it's something.

[-DG-]

Good answer.

 

While I see your points, and kinda agree with a few(or at least understand your perspective), I'm not all in agreement. I might or I might not try a half witty reply some other day, at a somewhat earlier hour. Bah... Ok about one of my points, was about you(and KBN) being a representive for those of us that don't like the removal of self heals, we're your people too, hehe(no matter your own opinions and beliefs). And I hope you'll speak up on our behalf as well.

 

Thanks for nice answer. //DG

[Xethis]

From a pvp perspective, I am very disappointed. I think the tank changes are good, they will definitely help with Sin tanks being bursted so easily. But PT and Jugg tanks still have more tricks in their bags, still not gonna make the Sin a favored or desirable class for pvp.

 

More damage on the melee attacks for Deception is better than nothing, but it isn't going to bring our sustained damage where it needs to be in pvp and pve. The main issue with Deception is outside of Recklessness you never crit with your force attacks, hell sometimes my Reck buff will expire with 3 stacks because 80% chance to crit still isn't enough. They got to fix our crit rng.

 

Madness, in another post I went on a small rant about what I think. To sum it up, giving us un-cleansable dots won't change anything. Sadness will remain exactly how it is for pvp and pve.

[PerKIA]

BW is taking a step in that direction. It's not perfect, but it's something.

 

Really? How so?

 

What theyre saying is, in short, "we are going to monitor PvE dps perfomance after 2.5, and if we see that somethings needs to be done for PvE viability endgame for assassin dps, were going to look into it, until then, the slightly increse in damage for PvP balancing might trickle down and hopefully be of some positive use even for PvE."

 

If the Devs havnt "noticed" that Assassin dps are the worst dps class in the game after 2.0 so far, then im afraid they wont notice it after 2.5.

 

Lets face it, the devs dont care about PvE balance, They dont care about PvE mechanics at all.

 

Ive been playing a deception assassin since launch and i love playing the class. This game has so much potential, but they just dont care, it is noticeable that they have given upp on the game.

 

so... Im done with this game, im jumping ship, playing around in Rift until Skyrim release.

[Xethis]

 

so... Im done with this game, im jumping ship, playing around in Rift until Skyrim release.

 

He'll be back!

[Xienive]

I don't like heals being removed for PVP, at one point they were amazing, then nerfed to where they are now and now removed completely.

 

I actually use to really enjoy playing Madness but without Maul there just isn't a point. They just need to move it back down so Madness can get it. I still really believe it would be a good start to making it a better spec. I know people would be concerned with tanks having it, but at this point I don't even think it would be that big of a deal as long as it couldn't proc the same time as the other Maul proc for tanks. Not to mention that the whole dps gear with a focus isn't as popular as it use to be for tank spec.

 

I really think Infiltration/Deception is fine right now. I don't even pickup VS, I just prefer DF so the changes to that wouldn't affect me anyway.

[JP_Legatus]

How does it make you feel?

 

/Reserved

 

Bioware actually listening to the players is a good thing, but they made a few mistakes.

 

First, sin tanks suck compared to jugg tanks. Removing heals for better mitigation didn't do anything in that regard, as the class is still as "balanced" now as it was then (jugg tanks are still vastly superior by a large margin), just with some things moved from one place to another. Sins may have an easier time in pve due to less spikiness, but the balance issue remains unchanged. I won't comment on how PT tanks stand up to either class, I'll leave that to someone else.

 

Deception sins... I really hope they don't go through with the planned changes. It sounds to me like they're just going to make deception overpowered. I want my favorite spec to be balanced, but also playable in arenas. What they're proposing (flat damage boost across the board) will just make them overpowered everywhere since they will have normal dps and possibly the best burst in the game (carnage will still burst better, but maras are supposedly getting a nerf hammer in 2.5), making them the ideal pvp dps spec (minus survivability issues).

 

Madness... well they didn't fix anything about it. Sure the dots are harder to cleanse, but the spec still does bad dps, maxes out via tab-dotting, and is still the squishiest spec in the game. Making dots un-cleansable doesn't change even one bit of that. In fact most of the time in pvp when I decide to go madness I don't even see people cleanse my dots, because usually it's operatives doing the healing and they can't easily purge force dots. This change really only affects duels or skirmishes against sorcs.

[USCG_Davis]

I saw the numbers posted on another thread and now i cant find the post to quote them; but from what i understand (corret me if im missing anything) we gain 55% more armor and 4% Damage reduction when all our active buffs are up. Now, i have a PT tank and a Sin tank and my brother has a Jugg tank (which admittedly i suck *** on cuz ive only played him at level 55) but what i love about my Sin tank is the active mitigation we have to factor in. The self healing tricks from FL were awesome and what made me love the class. Now, even though we lost our self healing (which to be bluntly honest; while a great little trick, wasnt up to par for the current content) we still have the most active tanking rotation.

Assassin

General

Dark Charge no longer heals the Assassin, but now increases armor rating by 130% (up from 115%) and deals additional threat when it damages an enemy target.

 

Darkness

3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness no longer cause the Assassin to be healed when Force Lightning deals damage. Instead, it grants Dark Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Dark Protection stacks up to 4 times and lasts 18 seconds.

Swelling Shadows has been redesigned: It now increases the armor rating Dark Charge grants by an additional 20/40%.[/Quote]

 

So instead of healing for little amounts with FL; we gain 4% damage reduction, which is such a step up in every way for us. Granted i never ran NiM content as a tank (dps'd plenty of it and got to listen to our sin tank *****) only got up to HM 16 man content, but even on 8 man HM Thrasher, some much of that fight was butt puckering for me watching healers chain heal my health bar to barely alive. Im very happy with these changes for the tank tree and cant wait to get back state side and play my sin again

[Grumpftard]

Sorry, my attempt at irony might not have been obvious(or just might be my phrasing of it, since english ain't my 1th language). I'll try make it more obvious next time.

 

And no, I never asked to get ridd of self heals(but yeah, some people did that, in some manner).

 

I caught your irony and I was agreeing with it.

Some people were asking for a tweek to self heals, they got their tweek, but it wasn't the one they were expecting/wanting.

 

On an off the wall side note...has anyone made the joke yet about BW took away our H2F button?

[LadyDarkkitten]

Im really unhappy about losing the self heals. what was wrong with my suggestion of a cheat death style mechanic? thats been successful in wow and other mmos. making madness dots uncleansable isnt the right move either, you dont want anything to become "uncounterable", thats just bad for the game. Instead maybe reduce its dependancy on dots? By boosting thrash/force ligthing damage.

 

Overall ye really unhappy about this. I'll see how it all works out when it goes live, but I was enjoying my sin!!! I dont want to have to go back to my troopy and bhunter. Im going to miss playing her.

[Evolixe]

Im really unhappy about losing the self heals. what was wrong with my suggestion of a cheat death style mechanic? thats been successful in wow and other mmos. making madness dots uncleansable isnt the right move either, you dont want anything to become "uncounterable", thats just bad for the game. Instead maybe reduce its dependancy on dots? By boosting thrash/force ligthing damage.

 

Overall ye really unhappy about this. I'll see how it all works out when it goes live, but I was enjoying my sin!!! I dont want to have to go back to my troopy and bhunter. Im going to miss playing her.

 

What is wrong with a Cheat Death mechanic is that if it can come too frequently it is massively overpowered. But in this case.. if it doesn't happen exactly when you need it in PvE you're still dead. That is no solution.

 

Anyways, sitting back and seeing how this is going to pack out. Untill then i'm not ringing any alarms.

[DarthSylar]

More damage on the melee attacks for Deception is better than nothing, but it isn't going to bring our sustained damage where it needs to be in pvp and pve. The main issue with Deception is outside of Recklessness you never crit with your force attacks, hell sometimes my Reck buff will expire with 3 stacks because 80% chance to crit still isn't enough. They got to fix our crit rng.

 

In the group of answers before ours the devs said they weren't happy at the crit rate and would be adjusting it soon. So 2.4 may see more sustained damage and a higher crit rate.

[DarthSylar]

And FWIW, I don't PvP, but the increase in Voltaic Slash damage as well as Maul damage seems great for PvP since the encounters are much shorter.

 

For PvE, it's a start. The Increase can't be OP due to it's potential to make assassins to powerful in PvP, but any boost to sustain would be welcomed. I really think Devs dropped the ball by not decreasing the force cost of Low Slash so Maul could be used rotationally in PVE. Doing so would raise sustain damage without effecting PvP.

[stuffystuffs]

I'm happy with the overall quality of the answers. I can tell that they've been reading these threads presenting concerns/issues with the AC.

 

As for the answers relating to dps changes, it's a start at least. I still have some concerns but will take a 'wait and see' approach when 2.5 hits.

 

Deception sins... I really hope they don't go through with the planned changes. It sounds to me like they're just going to make deception overpowered. I want my favorite spec to be balanced, but also playable in arenas. What they're proposing (flat damage boost across the board) will just make them overpowered everywhere since they will have normal dps and possibly the best burst in the game (carnage will still burst better, but maras are supposedly getting a nerf hammer in 2.5), making them the ideal pvp dps spec (minus survivability issues).

 

I agree...the damage boost to maul at least is probably unnecessary.

 

Madness... well they didn't fix anything about it. Sure the dots are harder to cleanse, but the spec still does bad dps, maxes out via tab-dotting, and is still the squishiest spec in the game. Making dots un-cleansable doesn't change even one bit of that. In fact most of the time in pvp when I decide to go madness I don't even see people cleanse my dots, because usually it's operatives doing the healing and they can't easily purge force dots. This change really only affects duels or skirmishes against sorcs.

 

Right, I think this uncleansable mechanic will (in practice) best benefit ACs that rely on tech based DOTs (Lethality). Madness needs some kind of burst instead of this.

[Aetrus]

Seems to me like Darkness is going to be OP again with the proposed changes. Pre-2.0 we had 20% more armor and average self-heals. 2.5 we should have 65% more armor with 4% extra DR and no self-heals. Seems like a pretty good trade off. I think people complaining about the current APtank hybrid are going to have a field day complaining about a 18/27/1 Darkness Hybrid or something similar.

 

I really don't know what to make of the Deception changes. I think they're being stubborn and approaching it from the wrong direction. The 2.0 Discharge is an awful skill and the Electric Ambush talent is the bandaid they use to cover it up with. If they were actually willing to admit they screwed up they'd revert the Voltaic Slash and Discharge changes made in 2.0 and then just give us flat damage buffs. But what they propose looks like it'll make us pretty overthetop, already having great burst and maybe the lowest TTK in the game, along with good sustained damage.

 

Madness' proposed changes are just laughable. I've never played Madness and gone, "Man, if only they couldn't cleanse my dots! Then this spec would be awesome!" Disclaimer: I have a Marauder and Annihilation is my favorite spec. I've said that plenty of times on him. Madness Sins need some burst back. A way to use Maul, or a really hard hitting Shock that doesn't rape your Force bar. Something. Annihilation has Annihilate. Lethality has Cull and Takedown. Madness has...Death Field. Which is significantly less bursty. IDK. Seems like the spec will still be awful. Except Madness Sorcs. Who would probably be OP with the uncleansable change.

 

Side note: from the Merc answers and other places, it seems like they've buffed and are going to keep buffing the ranged classes, while melee gets toned down (Marauder defensives getting hit apparently.) Sort of makes me wonder the point in playing melee DPS is going to be, especially with the kind of utility that mercs and snipers already bring - combined with huge burst.

[Kayriel]

All i can say about the changes replies is that i am happy

Darkness , will be less spiky , but will loose a unique mechanic ( a a bit sad about that , but at least its a step in the right direction )

Deception , getting some much needed sustainability , for pve we are falling behind all ACs at the moment ( i am not talking about pure DPS classes here ) , i think a dmg increase to maul would be going over board , but if they boost shock ( i am hoping for the 1.7 mechanic to come back:P - 2 x VS = % boost to shock dmg ) , and maybe a bit more base dmg to discharge ( at least that's what i am hoping to see , when they say dmg increase to this ability ) then , that should do it

As for madness... not sure what to think , i guess its a step in the right direction ( DOT protection ) , i am hoping they will find it in their hearts to bring back Maul for this spec , or give Madness the ability to use Assassinate , instead of maul

As a last note , i am keeping my fingers crossed , for a crit. chance increase across the board ( all game ACs )