Shadow Top Three Answers

[Xienive]

Honestly I don't think even with a damage buff CS will be worth having. I don't think they can make it where it's a better choice than FiB for PVP. All of our main burst comes from popping force potency which already gives us 3 stacks, and with 3 stacks of it, you can hit somebody with force breach, Fib, and project with all being a crit.

 

Force breach isn't even really that good of an attack if it doesn't crit, and it takes too long to build up even with CS only not to crit. I find it much better to have an extra area attack in terms of both dps and utility.

 

I'm not sure what a real solution to increasing sustained dps would be, but buffing up CS isn't going to do it.

[Maudril]

Waaait, one thing I am seeing here that seems to be an especially smelly batch of panthercrap.

 

Assassin/Shadow tanks can no longer use their DPS companions viably, they now need to use a healer, which makes them just as painfully slow to solo content as a jugtank.

HA, seriously? Seriously?

 

You still have MUCH Better DPS than the Juggernaut, still less healing needed by a comfortable amount, much better threat generation, now even a damage buff to your abilities AND armor rating and Damage reduction. What does that mean, less reliance on mitigation stats (tank gear). What does that mean you can use more viably? DPS gear for solo content, and still tank relatively well.

So what I am going to do when this hits is take out Ashara in full 162 gear and slap on my DPS 162 gear as a TankSin and start mowing down the enemies. This is a *huge* improvement for solo content.

I really, really hope that if they decide this is OP that they don't hit us with the nerfbat too hard, because... this is a pretty big buff, guys.

 

We lose self heals, which is a bit of uniqueness. The only thing we will have slightly more trouble with is clearing the SM Czerka Flashpoints without a healer. Thats it, even then only slightly, and even debatably as our buffs probably compensate pretty well for it (also less spike damage, so our damage taken is going to be quite a bit less now)

 

And no, no, NO We do not play the same as Jug or PT tanks now. We now have fewer spikes but with more reliance upon mitigation stats (thus I think still less average healing needed than the other two, but I suspect this shortens the gap) than Jug tanks. We take less damage now, we still do more damage, and now generate even MORE threat which was already a strong advantage we had over jugs. Holding mob aggro and taking aggro back from an overzealous marauder is going to be even easier now.

 

This is an overall improvement performance-wise for PVE. PVP, not sure how that works out unfortunately. It may make them more reliant upon the healers, but at the same time a Carnage Mara focusing on you wont take you down quite as fast, and you will have more damage to dish against him.

 

Also, I think the person that said we still require less average healing than the other two tanks was completely ignored. We still require least amount of healing, still best DPS, same high damage rotations, different methods of mitigation. Healing a SinTank may be different, but not by much I do not think. Still gonna have an easier time soloing singleplayer content (honestly, I use Jaesa/Vette on my Jug Tank to great effect, I don't know what you people are going on about saying that Quinn is mandatory. Quinn/Pierce are only mandatory for Maras and poorly geared DPS juggs)

 

Frankly, I am worried this will make them OP and thus allowing the nerf bat to take another misaimed swing. I hope they got it right, or on the slightly weaker side (I enjoy my SinTank above my JugTank, and in many cases I already find it easier and faster to tank and clear content with her than my Jug)

 

Everyone who is whining, this buff is pretty effing big for a number of reasons. and it IS a buff, I am quite sure Jug tanks dont have much on us after this patch gets out, not that they have much on us as it stands with 55HM's and such. I cant speak for raids, as I am not a raider.

 

I am overjoyed, at the same time concerned by the proposed changes. Once I play with these changes, if they are removed I will be very loathe to part with them.

 

EDIT: I actually like that the buff from Harnessed Darkness and Force Lightning (whatever the shadow equiv is) lasts as long as it does. While it does "Nerf the skill floor", it also allows for more flexibility in playstyle, which I like. (Also consider when thrashing to get Shock back does tend to hit your force hard, and consider Maul and Assassinate to do the same... towards the end of the fight, the space between Force Lightnings/TkT's tends to extend) Again, lets see how this plays out because I can see a slight problem with this as well.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Maudril

[Maudril]

Made this a separate post for a separate point/

 

Devs, love the changes to the Shadow/Assassin tanks. Lets see how those pan out in play, I highly doubt that the changes will change performance for the worst. I think you are done as far as that goes.

 

However, the DPS trees need help.

I played a low level Assassin Deception recently, I went back to tank spec shortly thereafter. Damage is inconsistent, the chances to activate the 3 stack thing seem way too low, and force management is a bit of an issue (I imagine moreso when Voltaic Slash is added to rotation) So perhaps something along the lines of giving Deception easier force management (biggest thing I missed about tank spec was the force regen boost) and making the chance based aspects of their DPS yield a bit more frequently to add a bit more consistency to their DPS.

 

Madness, never played it. But I hear that the rampup time is what kills it, and the need for perfect skill juggling. Even then, I hear it is lacking (All major raiding guilds say that Assassin DPS is sub-par even when played damn near optimally). I understand the concept of the Madness Sin, supposed to be reminiscent of Darth Zannah. Perhaps more abilities to do upfront damage while sort of building DOT stacks on the side? I have to try Madness sin sometime as I am fascinated by the concept, but was put off by its alleged lack of performance.

 

So Tanksin, fine as changes proposed, get workin on that DPS though. Excited to see changes, as they seem AWESOME so far... just the DPS needs a bit more

[Alduinsm]

I like the changes of Shadow/Sin Tank .

[Tankqull]

a few points from my pov:

 

tank changes are neat but they will probably lead to hybrids again that are not wanted by BW especially when they stick to their dmg increasing of nearly every available attack for tanks ... (as well as both DD-trees)

 

so my suggestions would be (as i never have nor ever will play balance on my shade the recommendations i can give for that spec may lack quite a bit ):

1) do not add dmg "globaly" - tanks are fine as they are dmg wise.

 

Kinetic:

additional to BWs changes

2) add to "force break" a whirling´blow energy reduction of 25/50/75% plus a 10/30/50% snare effect on whirling blow (if you feel that those energy cost reductions lead to a to powerfull pbae aggro gaining vs trash mobs reduce the dmg done by the same amount)

 

infiltration:

3) the new elusivness will make shadowey veil compleatly unnecessary change it into a force cloak reuse reduction of 20/45 seconds only effective in shadow- and force technique(infiltration shadows will then be able to exit combat every 45 seconds => severe DPS increase in PVP and PVE situations without touching burst dmg in itself)

4) reduce shadow strike dmg by 500 points directly add them to clairvoyant strike (slight burst reduction infavor of a DPS increasement)

4.a) increase the additional dmg of infiltration tactics to match proced shadow strikes to its current unchanged values (will be something like going from 30 to 35% your math will provide the correct values )

5) clairvoyant strike will add a 5 time stackable +1 energy reg buff, renewed with every CS attack lasting 5 seconds (severe DPS increasement without touching burst again)

6) shadow techniqe reduce the proc lockout timer of shadow breach from 4.5 seconds to 2 seconds.

 

those changes wont effect the tankspec as your global dmg increasement would, will effectivly change the DPS in pvp and pve of infiltration shadows without increasing the burst itself (actually lowering it slightly) wich is crucial for pvp as its out of stealth burst must not be increased any further.

 

regarding balance as i totally lack any experience my suggestions will probably have some downsides but i try my best:

balance:

6) mental scarring: add a 2/4/6sec reuse reduction of force in balance

7) reduce duration of sever force to 9 sec keep dmg as it is

8) crush spirit: add a additional surge bonus of 100% to dots while target is below 30%

9) not sure if rippling force is applied to every dot tick of force breach if not it should and reduce it to a 1 point perk

10) lambast: critical hits with sever force have a 25/50% chance to reset telecinetic throw and increase its range to 30m untill it is used (stacks 2 times) last untill you exit fight.

11) the left point from rippling force should be used for an additional spammable dot in that tier 10 power lasting 12 seconds 2times aplyable to the target on different stacks always cleansed first if on the target (works as a dot protection) ticks for 100dmg per second

Edited October 8, 2013 by Tankqull

[thejollygreenone]

However, the DPS trees need help.

I played a low level Assassin Deception recently, I went back to tank spec shortly thereafter. Damage is inconsistent, the chances to activate the 3 stack thing seem way too low, and force management is a bit of an issue (I imagine moreso when Voltaic Slash is added to rotation) So perhaps something along the lines of giving Deception easier force management (biggest thing I missed about tank spec was the force regen boost) and making the chance based aspects of their DPS yield a bit more frequently to add a bit more consistency to their DPS.

 

 

it's funny how much you nailed the problem on the head for deception without ever had playing it in an end game setting. building static charges (for discharge) is very sluggish even with VS mechanic for shock. and force management is a bit of an issue( not a large one ) because our rotation consists of spamming the hell out of VS because nothing else is available, and blowing everything better immediately as it becomes available.

 

if we could have a way to use VS less, maybe once per shock at most necessarily, then our force regen would feel a lot smoother. and making the chance based aspects of our dps more fruitful is EXACTLY what needs to be looked at. duplicity often takes way too long to proc, and apparently we aren't supposed to be using low slash according to the devs, and discharge also often takes way too long to become usable because outside of the shock autoproc of static charge stacks, the charge stacks built naturally are just godly inconsistent.

 

shock double stacking (and therefore often overcapping and losing a stack) static charge stacks is a largely unavoidable problem, discharge proccing surging charge happens all the time and is ALWAYS a loss of a static charge stack because it's bugged, AND on top of all that, the chance to proc is way too low for the long lockout time. since the lockout time (4.5s) works well with the flow of projects and such, i think it shouldn't be changed. i think what should be changed about the proc rate of surging charge is the % chance to proc. while 25% on paper seems fine, quite frankly, it's not fine. 25% is so low that i've gone 20 seconds without a single proc to show for it besides that which i built with shock.

 

in conclusion, they said they will look at duplicity, we can expect some possibly good changes to the way maul gets procced and is used in the future, but the answers completely ignored how much of a problem there is in the building of static charges. basically how i saw the answers was that they wanted to appease our low slash complaint by possible changing how duplicity's rate and mauls damage, but that's all they really stated they were doing that actually involved what we talked about in the question.

 

the only other piece of info they gave us was a flat damage increase to VS/thrash. not surprisingly, this was the exact change that i advised AGAINST. we need to take focus away from VS, not make it more acceptable to blindly spam. yes VS should be used at least just about every shock, but being forced to use it 2 or even 3 times between each shock is ludicrous to me, and contributes heavily to our force regen problem.

 

on a side note, i recently posted this in regards to someone pointing out how recklessness is also lacking. i agree, i think recklessness is our signature burst phase, and only having it twice every minute and thirty seconds is way too long to go for a relied upon burst phase, what i suggested is as such:

my thought would be to change recklessness (whether in a talent or just a flat change) to be much more frequent but much less potent. right now its 60% to force abilities with 2 charges every minute and a half because of force cloak. i would like to see the change of taking away its dependency on force cloak, and make recklessness do say 30% crit chance to force abilities, 2 charge, with a 30 second cooldown, but maybe make the duration of the buff last longer in case crits are stubborn and take too long to use the charges. this would certainly reduce the opening burst capabilities in pvp that shadow has, but i would greatly improve their pressure capability after that initial burst.

 

in conclusion, yes force regen is a bit of a problem, and our other pve problem is the chance aspects of our dps. and incidentally, improving the chance aspects of our dps will directly improve our force regen, because more mauls and force breaches or even low slashes means less clairvoyant strikes twice-three times in a row. from an avid infiltration/deception pve fan, this is what i believe is what is the roots of this specs big problems and what to look at to solve them.

Edited October 8, 2013 by thejollygreenone

[Asavrede]

Yet, still no decent cooldowns for powertech tanks =(

[JackNader]

Deception needs better sustained damage in exchange for a reduction in stun lock potential. The recklessness reset has to be exchanged for something else. That talent is stupidly absurd in pugs. Edited October 11, 2013 by JackNader

[-Feador-]

in the first post is probably a mistake. It seems to me, but initially it should look like this:

 

Hey Shadows,

Thank you very much...

for the fact that you've played this game, Despite our attempts to kill this class.

The Combat team has

carefully studied all videos from youtube and

answered your questions below.

[KeyboardNinja]

I performed some deeper analysis between the three tanks post-2.5, assuming that the only changes implemented are made to shadows/assassins, and those changes are exactly those outlined in OP. Short-form verdict: shadow/assassin tanks will be unbelievably overpowered in 2.5. There simply will not be a reason to take any other tank. Ever.

 

Full post is here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6836218#post6836218 Includes suggestions for how to buff guardians/juggernauts so that they are closer to the mean, and a set of suggestions for how to adjust post-2.5 shadows/assassins so that they aren't head-and-shoulders above everything else.

[JackNader]

The only issue I foresee with the shadow tank changes concerns shadows Tanks in DPS gear. They will be ****** face again.

[Berjiz]

Posted these ideas in KBNs new thread but posting it here to so Eric hopefully sees it.

 

-Change to the new 3 stack force lightning so it works the same way as Kinetic Ward / Dark Ward, if you refresh it you loose all current stacks. So if you don't get all 4 ticks of you will lose damage reduction. Lower the duration of the stacks from 18 seconds to 15.

-Add a talent at the bottom of the tank tree that gives 4 stacks when exiting stealth, the same way as Shadow Respite / Dark Embrace works.

-Allow phase walk to be remotely place with 10-15 meter range but with disabled teleport as a talent so you can skip it if you want. Alternatively allow teleport but remove the remote placing in PvP. Instead of a talent it could be added as a four set PvE tank bonus. If phase walk was easier to place it would have a higher uptime and therefore easier to included in theorycrafting and overall utility. It's just not reliable enough atm.

[drfirewater]

What I don't understand is I was under the impression that the self healing was to balance out the fact that they have naturally less damage reduction then other classes .. Assassins focus on high shield and absorb with the idea that a majority of the time they will take less damage but truth be told they end up on the wrong end of the stick more often then the % lead you to believe. This is the nature of Random ... sometimes its in your favor but like all gambling you always lose in the end.

 

So you take away the healing .. that is fine .. but where is the increase to damage reduction that balances it out with the fact that other classes have heavy armor PERMANTLY? so rather then increase healing done by the combo you increase defensive stats by small percentage?

 

I guess I really have to see it in play ... I hate playing my PT tank just cause I don't like it ... loved my assassin tank but stopped tanking because our guilds top assassin tank had to switch to playing his less geared Jug because less spikes in damage which lead to easier to heal over all. I don't know how Assassins now not having any healing benefit and slightly less damage in spikes is gonna HELP ... hope it all becomes obvious in 2.5

[Darkoman]

have to say i am not a fan of the shadow tank change. . .the self heal is what i love about the class. I am not a big op guy but in pvp it is part of what makes the class fun to play for me. It seems to me they are fixing one part of the game by completely changing the way the class is played. If i wanted high defense i woulda have rolled a knight Edited October 12, 2013 by Darkoman

[DarthDokken]

I miss playing Madness as an assassin. It is down right horrible now. No Maul and wet noodle dots. I like a challenge when I play and the old madness was just that. So now you're stuck with one spec and that is deception. I like it too, but I always like to change things up once in awhile.

 

Leveled as a tank and played my first year and a bit as one. Then built my DPS gear and would like to think I can do both competently. After 2.0, like addressed, tanking seemed broken. I'm glad the changes are coming for that.

 

Please look more into Madness Assassin/Shadow and look at tweaking the damage.

 

My 2 cents.

[KeyboardNinja]

-Add a talent at the bottom of the tank tree that gives 4 stacks when exiting stealth, the same way as Shadow Respite / Dark Embrace works.

 

This, a thousand times this. I think it should probably be high in the tree, connected to Harnessed Shadows / Harnessed Darkness, but otherwise… This would be such a fantastic change. This change really solves three purely QoL problems without affecting balance in the slightest.

 

First, it can be very difficult to fully channel TkT/FL in a PvP setting due to movement and physics effects. Stealth provides a way for shadows to get their stacks up quickly without having to channel on a one-time basis. It also provides a tactical option for combat stealth later in a skirmish. Good shadows would have to choose between refreshing stacks and saving combat stealth, which would be a very neat balance point.

 

Second, the currently proposed design is a nerf to shadows in the opening twelve seconds of the fight, since we don't have our stacks early on (note: Guardian Slash doesn't have this problem, since you use it almost right away). Giving stacks out of stealth ensures that we can open with four stacks, and so we don't get destroyed by opening burst before our mitigation is fully proc'd.

 

Finally (and this is my favorite one), this would give shadow tanks a legitimate reason to use stealth beyond cheesing mechanics and mezzing. Stealth is a key component of the shadow AC from a thematic standpoint, and the tank AC is the only one which doesn't get to use it at all. I would love to have to open each pull from stealth. It would add such a fantastic component to the class, and really make me feel like a "shadow". Remember, shadow tanks are currently the only stealth AC with no reason to use stealth.

 

Please Bioware, consider this suggestion. It's a really, really great concept, and it promises to be a fantastic addition to the class changes you have already proposed.

Edited October 13, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[Xienive]

I want Shadow Strike back on the first tier like it always should have been. It would make playing Balance much better in PVP, and even though it still wouldn't be the best spec it would be much more fun and with the dps increase to the move it would give us some nice melee burst which will make us different from a Sage which is already just superior in every way in Balance spec.

 

And not that it is super important, but it would also help Shadows and Asssassins in the low tier PVP to have a nice melee ability at lvl 10 again instead of SS being useless ability for a long time.

 

With tanks all you would have to do is make sure it didn't stack with the other SS proc and it would be fine there too.

[Darth_Haderach]

While I am glad to see the issues with spike damage being addressed, as an Assassin tank I feel very sad to learn self healing is going to be removed. I play that class and spec because it is most distinctive among the tanks, self healing is a major part of that distinction. There is already the tanks with passive damage reduction and if I wanted that playstyle I would play them.

A simple way around, the way I see it, is to change the self healing not to arrive at random but rather something like:

 

"If you're to take an attack that would bring you below --% health, you receive a shield that absorbs --% of the damage and heals you for --% of the absorbed amount"

or

"If you're to take an attack that would bring you below --% health, you're first healed for --% of the impending damage"

 

The percentages can be adjusted and coordinated with a passive cooldown, thus when the self heal is not ready you compensate with other abilities. Both the self healing and shielding flavours of the Shadow/Assassin are preserved.

 

Of course a focused developer attention could bring a more elegant solution. My suggestion is just an example of dealing with the issue without compromising with one of the main attributes of the class. Removing self heals and simply adding passive mitigation feels like a shortcut to me at the expense of the class' uniqueness.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Darth_Haderach

[Bilirubin]

Speaking for myself, I could care less about self healing as long as I am not taking the damage in the first place.

 

Like the idea about building stacks when exiting stealth. Hope BW crunches your numbers and prevents over buffing KBN (or at least finds an error in your numbers that would make us less OP in 2.5).

[IInox]

It'd be AWEOME to have a talent that transforms our phase walk in a "ShadowStep" or like TYRAN's teleport :rolleyes: if you have done for the boss you can create it for us..

[Pupulon]

Self-Healing is the main reason that Shadow is my main character. As it was mentioned by many others :

 

-It makes solo playing a tank fun. I play with Nadia as my companion to do my dailies and weeklies. Without self-heal I will have to either use a healer companion or stop to heal between most fights turning those into a massively boring grind.

 

-it makes the class really stand out compare to the other tank classes

 

-It is flavorful with the lore

 

Tanking high end content is currently a pain in the *** on Shadow/Sin if you get a couple of unlucky proc on shield chance against spiked attacks but taking away the self-heals seems like a massive sacrifice to what make the class fun. Count me as disappointed by that choice.

[genericola]

I have Mixed feelings about the changes, it sounds like it will improve shadows but also destroys my interest in playing one. As someone who recently started playing a shadow precisely for the self-healing, I can say I'll have little-to-no interest in leveling it, post these changes.

[Majspuffen]

For Balance/Madness, we also plan to try out a new form of damage over time protection. Through an addition to Psychic Absorption/Devour in the Balance/Madness skill tree, their damage over time abilities will become “uncleansable” – which means that abilities like Triage/Toxin Scan and Field Aid/Cure will no longer be able to remove Balance/Madness damage over time effects. However, certain abilities with long cooldowns like Dodge/Evasion and Resilience/Force Shroud and abilities that grant immunity like Force Barrier will still be able to purge these improved damage over time effects.

 

I've been unsubscribed and unable to post a comment but I'd just like to highlight the ineptitude of this statement here. I think it stands as testament that Bioware really does not know how their game works.

 

As of this moment, Triage/Toxin Scan and Field Aid/Cure -CANNOT- remove Shadow/Sage DoTs. A Biodrone might say "yes, but they said abilities like them. That doesn't necessarily mean that those abilities can, but other abilities similar to them might."

 

Which would be a ******** statement because the only other ability like those two are Restoration/Purge and that is the only dispel mechanic in the game (aside from evasion and force shroud) that can remove a Shadow's DoTs. So, if we were to decipher Bioware's ********, what you are reading is "we are nerfing sorc healers so they can't remove Assassin/Sorc DoTs." It's an extremely tiny buff for shadows seeing as Operatives are the healers that are in demand, and they got an enormous buff to Evasion in 2.0 for no reason, which was an indirect PvP nerf to all DoT classes.

 

Bioware is not trying to fix Balance for PvP. Or maybe they are, but they are just so damn clueless about their own damn game that they don't know how they are supposed to do it. I'd recommend taking a look at WoW; Warlock's Unstable Affliction and Shadow Priest's Vampiric Touch. A healer might not want to dispel those abilities and rather let the DoTs tick, which is a pretty neat and functioning mechanic.

 

All DoT classes in this game suffers from this problem.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Itathor]

hi all, I've been away for a while but came back 3 weeks ago , and i don't know for how long...

i've played shadow since day one,and have to say we have been nerfed since day one . instead of changing how we are, why not roll all the nerfs back. i think it should fix the problems..

[IInox]

I saw devs are going to buff watchmen spec for pve...(pvp side is lecit) lol?