No Intentional Hybrid Tax

[Spatology]

When hybrids aren't able to complete NIM content under most circumstances, there's a problem. Period.

 

 

2500 dps vanguard with some utility

 

Vs

 

3200+ dps gunslinger.

 

No amount of utility compensates 700dps when enrage timers and soft enrage mechanics are so tight.

[Andryah]

Then come up with another term for it Andryah...the problem exists and it has been pointed out by the DEVELOPERS as an issue they want to correct. Seriously...you're arguing over the TERMS used?! I still believe you're utterly confused on the whole issue...but whatever...you claim to be clear on it, but not one of your comments on what we're talking about makes any sense. You seem to be confusing (the player coined) "hybrid tax" with a "hybrid build"...they are not the same thing.

 

Why do we need a term that talks about a symptom rather then the real desire of some of the players?

 

Why can't we just discuss ways and ideas to get the spec-2-purity for those that want it? I'm interested in that discussion, it's productive because it addresses the actual issue, and I really think more objective dialog about how to do this and not destroy the hybrid nature of a class is extremely relevant. I know it's hard for the devs, and easy for us.. but at least it's focused on the goal rather then labels designed to get people worked up over "alleged promises" and "alleged betrayals" by the devs.

 

And please.. stop telling me what I think or what I am confused about. I'm not confused by player coined term at all.. I simply disagree that this is where the energy of discussion should be focused... which is why I emphasize the absurdity of the term "tax".

Edited September 10, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

When hybrids aren't able to complete NIM content under most circumstances, there's a problem. Period.

 

 

2500 dps vanguard with some utility

 

Vs

 

3200+ dps gunslinger.

 

No amount of utility compensates 700dps when enrage timers and soft enrage mechanics are so tight.

 

Without getting embroiled over a debate about the value of "utility"... would you agree that if the class had the ability to "spec-2-purity" such that if you spec for pure DPS... you get comparable DPS to that slinger.. but lose the utility you don't value anyway?

 

And.. conversely.. the slinger needs the same setup and treatment. I do not want to sideways into a discussion about class vs class here... but you are different armor classes as well... so the class comparisons will never be absolutely pure... but they could get a lot closer for the purests seeking trinity roles.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Why do we need a term that talks about a symptom rather then the real desire of some of the players?

 

Why can't we just discuss ways and ideas to get the spec-2-purity for those that want it? I'm interested in that discussion, it's productive because it addresses the actual issue, and I really think more objective dialog about how to do this and not destroy the hybrid nature of a class is extremely relevant. I know it's hard for the devs, and easy for us.. but at least it's focused on the goal rather then labels designed to get people worked up over "alleged promises" and "alleged betrayals" by the devs.

 

And please.. stop telling me what I think or what I am confused about.

 

The term is used so that we all know we're talking about the same thing Andryah.

 

What do you mean "spec 2 purity"? Explain that...this is where you're completely losing me.

[Andryah]

The term is used so that we all know we're talking about the same thing Andryah.

 

What do you mean "spec 2 purity"? Explain that...this is where you're completely losing me.

 

it is a direct comment to this (and supportive of it):

any player with 36+ points in vigilance, scrapper, assault specialist, or balance is not a hybrid.

in fact, anyone with 36+ points in any spec is not a hybrid. just because my class affords me some basic healing or a taunt as a baseline, does mean that i am a hybrid.

 

Player wants to be pure DPS and wants competitive DPS to a pure DPS class (which is fair IMO). He can spec 36 points into a pure DPS tree and it skews the class performance and skill set to pure DPS at the expense of other class utility (including base class utility).

 

Rinse and repeat for pure Healer or pure Tank.

 

People that appreciate and want the utility and understand it means trade-off... they hybrid spec and do not get any advantage to the spec-2-purity.

 

Call it anything you like.. but it is the constructive focus on addressing the problem rather then labeling the symptoms.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Without getting embroiled over a debate about the value of "utility"... would you agree that if the class had the ability to "spec-2-purity" such that if you spec for pure DPS... you get comparable DPS to that slinger.. but lose the utility you don't value anyway?

 

And.. conversely.. the slinger needs the same setup and treatment. I do not want to sideways into a discussion about class vs class here... but you are different armor classes as well... so the class comparisons will never be absolutely pure... but they could get a lot closer for the purests seeking trinity roles.

 

Have you ever done any NiM runs (EV and KP don't count)? There's no time to use "utility" skills in a NiM Op. If you lose a tank, that DPS Vanguard taunt isn't going to save you. Lose a healer? My kolto bomb isn't gonna do crap for you.

 

Those skills can be handy in SM Ops, but once you're going for 72/75 gear, it's not "purists" who demand it, it's the enrage timers that require you to perform ONLY your role...not someone else's.

 

You're suggesting a total redesign of the classes...we're looking for minor tweaks to improve them.

[Skaol-dirtyd]

Can you guys please stop quoting her? It defeats the purpose of the ignore feature.

 

Thanks in advance

[TUXs]

it is a direct comment to this (and supportive of it):

 

 

Player wants to be pure DPS and wants competitive DPS to a pure DPS class (which is fair IMO). He can spec 36 points into a pure DPS tree and it skews the class performance and skill set to pure DPS at the expense of other class utility (including base class utility).

 

Rinse and repeat for pure Healer or pure Tank.

 

People that appreciate and want the utility and understand it means trade-off... they hybrid spec and do not get any advantage to the spec-2-purity.

 

Call it anything you like.. but it is the constructive focus on addressing the problem rather then labeling the symptoms.

 

You're talking about an entire overhaul of the game Andryah....that's ridiculous. Balance can be achieved without your "spe-2-purity" idea.

[Minack]

ITT: Andryah attempts to run interference for BW and turn a valid complaint into a moral failing. Edited September 10, 2013 by Minack

[TUXs]

Can you guys please stop quoting her? It defeats the purpose of the ignore feature.

 

Thanks in advance

 

My bad I'm finished!

[Andryah]

Have you ever done any NiM runs (EV and KP don't count)? There's no time to use "utility" skills in a NiM Op. If you lose a tank, that DPS Vanguard taunt isn't going to save you. Lose a healer? My kolto bomb isn't gonna do crap for you.

 

Those skills can be handy in SM Ops, but once you're going for 72/75 gear, it's not "purists" who demand it, it's the enrage timers that require you to perform ONLY your role...not someone else's.

 

You're suggesting a total redesign of the classes...we're looking for minor tweaks to improve them.

 

YES. AND I also said.. I don't want to get embroiled on a discussion about the value of utility. Why? For the very reasons you just stated. Utility value varies by encounter... as do other things like types of DPS or Tanking.

 

I'm suggesting something that will solve the core problem with players wanting to play hybrid classes as pure variants. Minor tweaks or adjustments here and there ARE NOT going to address this in a fair and balanced manner.... for all the reasons I stated in my prior posts that you did not read because I used too many words apparently. Further.. the ability to address this desire by players by changing spec.. means they CAN IN FACT tune their class for the encounter.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Andryah

[Andryah]

You're talking about an entire overhaul of the game Andryah....that's ridiculous. Balance can be achieved without your "spe-2-purity" idea.

 

I disagree.. on all counts.

[Skaol-dirtyd]

This response from the Devs does seem to contradict the response from the sage/sorc thread a week or so ago. Edited September 10, 2013 by Skaol-dirtyd

[Ratajack]

it is a direct comment to this (and supportive of it):

 

 

Player wants to be pure DPS and wants competitive DPS to a pure DPS class (which is fair IMO). He can spec 36 points into a pure DPS tree and it skews the class performance and skill set to pure DPS at the expense of other class utility (including base class utility).

 

Rinse and repeat for pure Healer or pure Tank.

 

People that appreciate and want the utility and understand it means trade-off... they hybrid spec and do not get any advantage to the spec-2-purity.

 

Call it anything you like.. but it is the constructive focus on addressing the problem rather then labeling the symptoms.

 

I agree that giving the "hybrid" classes an option to spec for purity is a good way to go. I also agree that if a sorcerer wants to spec for DPS and have competitive numbers to a sniper, then speccing for pure DPS should negate the ability to heal.

 

I think you will not find too many people who would be willing to give up the ability to "toss of a bubble or heal now and then" even if it would mean their DPS would see a substantial boost. In my opinion, many of the "hybrid" class players want top notch performance in whatever role they choose while retaining the utility for which they chose that particular class.

[Andryah]

ITT: Andryah attempts to run interference for BW and turn a valid complaint into a moral failing.

 

Odd statement.. but not surprising from you.

 

I am in fact proposing how to solve the actual problem.. and my proposal does not run interference for Bioware.. it proposes a lot of work on their part.. to do this right.. not via klunky "minor adjustments" that fail the goal and likely make things worse in terms of total class balance.

 

But hey.. at least we are talking about the actual problem now rather then complaining about "taxes".

[oaceen]

This response from the Devs does seem to contradict the response from the sage/sorc thread a week or so ago.

 

yeah, i was hoping we could focus on this instead of what the thread turned into :/

[Andryah]

I think you will not find too many people who would be willing to give up the ability to "toss of a bubble or heal now and then" even if it would mean their DPS would see a substantial boost. In my opinion, many of the "hybrid" class players want top notch performance in whatever role they choose while retaining the utility for which they chose that particular class.

 

This is the elephant in the room frankly. They want it all.. they want their class to be overbalanced in their favor.

 

Not everyone thinks this way of course.. but there are a lot of them here that do.. and are not man enough to just admit it.

[Skaol-dirtyd]

I agree that giving the "hybrid" classes an option to spec for purity is a good way to go. I also agree that if a sorcerer wants to spec for DPS and have competitive numbers to a sniper, then speccing for pure DPS should negate the ability to heal.

 

I think you will not find too many people who would be willing to give up the ability to "toss of a bubble or heal now and then" even if it would mean their DPS would see a substantial boost. In my opinion, many of the "hybrid" class players want top notch performance in whatever role they choose while retaining the utility for which they chose that particular class.

 

I would give up my cast heals for sure 100%. The bubble should not be included in the equation. If I could spec into more dps in lieu of my cast heals .... Done sign me up...

[TUXs]

I'm suggesting something that will solve the core problem with players wanting to play hybrid classes as pure variants.

What the hell is a hybrid class??? Where did this term suddenly come from?! Is this your new term, kinda like "hybrid tax" but "class" instead?!

 

Just to be clear...this is not about HYBRID BUILDS. I spec as PURE DPS (36+ in ONE ALL DPS tree!)...the ONLY thing I want to do is KILL KILL KILL...yet because I have the ability to off heal or taunt, my DPS potential is lessened...hence the "hybrid tax".

[TUXs]

yeah, i was hoping we could focus on this instead of what the thread turned into :/

 

Sorry

[Andryah]

yeah, i was hoping we could focus on this instead of what the thread turned into :/

 

Yes, because focusing on endless discussion about apparent contradictions in comments from the devs moves us closer to solving the actual problem. Come on.

 

My entire point here is about stopping the circular discussions about dev communications and being part of coming up with solutions to the core issue.. there are purists playing hybrids who want pure play. Rather then dismiss them in their desire..and get on the "tax" bandwagon.. I am promoting the idea of finding a fair way for the purists to be able to play the class they way they want to.

 

If you stay focused on the non-ending discussion of "hybrid taxes" then both players and devs waste time and energy discussing a term that is nothing more then the label of a symptom of player displeasure.

[MaximusRex]

They won't just come out and say it in plain english either way, which is why we had the "heal to full" debacle.

 

The Sorc "heal to full" response was directly in relation to a question about defensive cooldowns, not DPS disparities. In reading context is everything. Anyone who inferred a hybrid tax from that needs to go back to school and take some courses in English comprehension.

 

Though, with over a decade of experience reading gaming and MMO forums, I shouldn't be surprised about the confusion since sadly a large percentage of the gamers who participate in such forums don't have the reading comprehension of the average grade school child.

[Andryah]

Just to be clear...this is not about HYBRID BUILDS. I spec as PURE DPS (36+ in ONE ALL DPS tree!)...the ONLY thing I want to do is KILL KILL KILL...yet because I have the ability to off heal or taunt, my DPS potential is lessened...hence the "hybrid tax".

 

A Sniper is a pure DPS class. Agree?

A Marauder is a pure DPS class. Agree?

A DPS class that can also heal is not. Agree?

A tank class that can also DPS is not a pure tank. Agree?

 

You see a pattern here?

 

Some players.. like you (per above) want to play pure DPS. but do it in a class that is not by definition pure DPS. Correct?

 

My proposal allows you to become pure DPS... competitive with the best pure DPS in the game. Something some players actually want to do.. play the class they want.. they way they want. But you can't in fair balance have that top tier DPS AND keep your heals or other utility. I am proposing a solution to this, rather then complain about "taxes".

Edited September 10, 2013 by Andryah

[oaceen]

Sorry

 

it's not unexpected. i mean the discussion in this thread is basically the same as the other thread that popped up after the sorc questions though. i think people get really heated with forcing their own opinions about how the game should be down other people's throats, so i start this thread, and people weren't done from before.

 

 

the thing is, the devs are now saying 'look, not every spec is doing the same dps. we're sorry about that. btw, we'll be giving everyone some utility at some point too if you don't have it already.'

 

i think the main points of this are

• they've acknowledge that it's an issue
  
• they've clarified that it's not intended
  
• we have no idea what changes will be coming
  
• we have no idea when these changes will be coming
  

 

i seriously doubt they're going to sit down and say 'alright, so we need to make these classes more viable and give them more utility..... lets start by nerfing their utility'

i know that it's easy to joke that they would, but the point is, 'well give up your heals then' is no longer an issue because have just come right out and said it: 'it's not an issue. all specs are supposed to be viable and within 5% of each other and provide some desirable utility'

 

it's a very difficult balancing act, and they certainly have an ambitious goal, but that is their statement of intent.

Edited September 10, 2013 by oaceen

[Minack]

Odd statement.. but not surprising from you.

 

I am in fact proposing how to solve the actual problem.. and my proposal does not run interference for Bioware.. it proposes a lot of work on their part.. to do this right.. not via klunky "minor adjustments" that fail the goal and likely make things worse in terms of total class balance.

 

But hey.. at least we are talking about the actual problem now rather then complaining about "taxes".

 

Go write a terrible song about it.

 

 

I agree that giving the "hybrid" classes an option to spec for purity is a good way to go. I also agree that if a sorcerer wants to spec for DPS and have competitive numbers to a sniper, then speccing for pure DPS should negate the ability to heal.

 

I think you will not find too many people who would be willing to give up the ability to "toss of a bubble or heal now and then" even if it would mean their DPS would see a substantial boost. In my opinion, many of the "hybrid" class players want top notch performance in whatever role they choose while retaining the utility for which they chose that particular class.

 

This is just nonsense. Most decent DPS sorcs couldn't care less if their team is low on health--That's what a healer is for. If a Lightning or Madness sorc is tossing out heals in between damage specials then both he and his medic are garbage.

 

The "heal to full" debacle was started because, apparently, the developers have very little sense on how their classes actually play. Vanguard having "perception issues" was just icing on the cake.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Minack