Official BC Progression Thread 2.3

[raidmac]

With all due respect, the claim you made on DoA having NiM clears with people from different guilds is false.

 

Please take note that DoA and DL are sister guilds, and many of the members' alts are joined in between the two guilds. If we have collaborated content clears, we will state it as Doomed on Arrival raid group clear rather than guild clear.

 

The screenshot here is a perfect example:

http://i.imgur.com/s3Up6ZO.jpg

 

Neutrinos is DoA's GM, he just has his sentinel in DL, while Miruriya is also a member of DoA, having his sentinel in DL, as well.

 

Hence the NiM content clear is, in fact, a DoA guild clear.

 

Sorry, I didnt mean to insult anyone but I was not aware that DoA and DL were sister guilds. And I submitted my kills before the new rules were put into play.

[rsuhandy]

Sorry, I didnt mean to insult anyone but I was not aware that DoA and DL were sister guilds. And I submitted my kills before the new rules were put into play.

 

That's true, but what about your NIM Kephess kill?

I might be wrong but I thought Desirea was in Ascension...?

VaeI is definitely in Infamous it seems.

Also you could just re-post a more recent kill of NIM Dread Guards and that would end all disputes.

[raidmac]

That's true, but what about your NIM Kephess kill?

I might be wrong but I thought Desirea was in Ascension...?

VaeI is definitely in Infamous it seems.

Also you could just re-post a more recent kill of NIM Dread Guards and that would end all disputes.

 

Well thats why i brought up the question because as it is our kills will not count because we do have vaei and Desi are not in hit and run.

[rsuhandy]

Well thats why i brought up the question because as it is our kills will not count because we do have vaei and Desi are not in hit and run.

 

Ah ok.

Well in the end I think it is up to Z.

But I think my stance has been made fairly clear on this subject.

[Robcro]

I know it may be a Legacy 50 thing but I would like to add.

 

Dendarii Mercenary Fleet/Imperial Northwestern Front (Collaboration between our guilds)

10 Stack Dreadtooth

 

I didn't take a quick screenshot for the actual achievement when it popped up but hopefully the video recording can serve as proof.

 

[raidmac]

Ah ok.

Well in the end I think it is up to Z.

But I think my stance has been made fairly clear on this subject.

 

sounds fair, though I do know that epic has transferred off the server. Also Desi and Vaei do not progression raid with their respective guilds, and I would not ask them to gquit their guild for a screen shot here.

[Underground_Man]

Grats on the kill, think of a name for the raid group and we'll give credit that way. I don't think it's fair to give the kill to Hit & Run with half of the people non-guildies. Thor does bring up a good point about the low pop of the server and the influence it has on guilds attempting to clear content. I think that Orazio has a very good point too about double dipping- people running across several groups in the same content does discount the achievements of those clearing the content with a set, unique group. Many progression threads on other servers even prohibit kills with people participating across multiple groups on the same character.

 

I made a judgement call on DOA's kill of Dashrode. The alts they have in Doomed Lemmings were explained to me as being alts there to better communicate with friends in their sister guild. Neutrino/Kephess even suggested it be counted as a Doomed on Arrival raid group if need be for the sake of the progression thread. I figured if Hit & Run's kills for Operator and DGs were going to be grandfathered in, DoA should likewise be given the same courtesy (though they are entirely different situations to say the least).

 

Some of us in Epic have transferred our mains off BC but many of us still have level 55 alts in Epic left on the server. If someone would rather take over the thread that is fine but I'm not demanding anyone take the reins as I didn't want to be known as the shortest-length keeper of the progression thread, lol. Server transfer won't have any effect on my commitment to the game or this thread but I will humbly transfer it over to someone else if people feel it's not in the best interest of the thread if if I continue to run it.

[Helmholtzz]

If you are giving up the thread, let me nominate kenji as the new caretaker. Edited September 22, 2013 by Helmholtzz

[LaniAkavir]

Thanks for your dedication and judgement, Z.

 

I'd hope to have you continue on updating the thread until 2.4 drops, should you then decide to keep the thread or hand it to the Colonists, probably after 2.4 would be the best time for transition.

 

Of course, I'd be more than willing to help out on the progression thread, let us know, Z!

[raidmac]

Just out of curiosity what constitutes a sister guild?

 

Also our raid group is called Model Minority. When 2.4 hits we will only have one nonguildie, but I am assuming for a full guild kill we need all guildies.

Edited September 22, 2013 by raidmac

[soowonlee]

Regarding the Hit and Run Kephess kill, the raid consisted of the following:

 

Battkt (Hit and Run)

Hachi (Hit and Run)

Stormdemon (Hit and Run)

Thorazine (Hit and Run)

Artamon (Hit and Run)

Bart's-slinger (Doomed Lemming. Alt, Barts-scoundrel in Hit and Run)

Desiirea (Asension)

Vaei (Infamous)

 

So what's the problem? Is the rule that progression only counts toward groups whose members are all in one guild? If so, then most Ascension and Doomed Lemming boss kills during after 2.0 no longer count towards progression here, since DL's group includes Kira (Infamous) and Ascension's group includes Urshanabi (Doomed Lemming). (Not that either guild cares, btw).

 

I'm also fine with using our raid group name (Model Minority), if people insist against counting this as guild progression.

[rsuhandy]

Regarding the Hit and Run Kephess kill, the raid consisted of the following:

 

Battkt (Hit and Run)

Hachi (Hit and Run)

Stormdemon (Hit and Run)

Thorazine (Hit and Run)

Artamon (Hit and Run)

Bart's-slinger (Doomed Lemming. Alt, Barts-scoundrel in Hit and Run)

Desiirea (Asension)

Vaei (Infamous)

 

So what's the problem? Is the rule that progression only counts toward groups whose members are all in one guild? If so, then most Ascension and Doomed Lemming boss kills during after 2.0 no longer count towards progression here, since DL's group includes Kira (Infamous) and Ascension's group includes Urshanabi (Doomed Lemming). (Not that either guild cares, btw).

 

I'm also fine with using our raid group name (Model Minority), if people insist against counting this as guild progression.

 

I think the reason for this discussion and the new rules is to prevent instances like Hit and Run's claim of NIM Dread Guards. I know for a fact one of the non-guilded members in that group didn't really think it was right for Hit and Run to claim that kill as their own. In my opinion that was a PUG raid and was a PUG clear. Claim it as such and give proper credit to those that helped out. The OPIX and Kephess kills are much more respectable in my opinion as that seems to be a set group. However, if Hit and Run can claim NIM Dread Guards with that group then should DWBI and DOA also get credit as Hit and Run wouldn't have been able to clear it without the people from those guilds?

[raidmac]

I think the reason for this discussion and the new rules is to prevent instances like Hit and Run's claim of NIM Dread Guards. I know for a fact one of the non-guilded members in that group didn't really think it was right for Hit and Run to claim that kill as their own. In my opinion that was a PUG raid and was a PUG clear. Claim it as such and give proper credit to those that helped out. The OPIX and Kephess kills are much more respectable in my opinion as that seems to be a set group. However, if Hit and Run can claim NIM Dread Guards with that group then should DWBI and DOA also get credit as Hit and Run wouldn't have been able to clear it without the people from those guilds?

 

Saying that Hit and Run wouldn't be able to clear it without DWBI and DoA is completely false. For that day we wouldnt have been able to clear it, but since the content was released we have had been pulling both operator 9 and DG(we have cleared dg every week since then with out current group). I wanted it to count as a guild kill because prior to having vaei and Desi, we were a full guild team and we put in a lot of hours working out strategies. The day gag and Kenji stepped in, was to replace to of our raiders who had to leave our group for various reasons, but the weeks prior we had gotten kelsara to 20% and op9 to 5%, so a lot of the work was put in prior. I understand with the current rules we will not get a guild kill and I think it sucks since the core of this group has been representing hit and run since march.

[soowonlee]

What is the difference between a PUG and a guild raid group? One can appeal to the guild affiliation of the group members, but this raises further questions. Do all of the group members have to belong to one guild? If not, then how many? Four? More than four?

 

The problem with this metric stems from the condition of this server. There aren't very many players on this server who are both willing and able to clear content at the nightmare level. If we insist that all members of a raid group belong to one guild, then this thread will soon be defunct.

 

Here are some other means by which one may be able to differentiate between a PUG and guild raid group.

 

1. Who is leading the raid? Which individuals are calling out CCs, assigning add duties and other responsibilities related to mechanics? Obviously PUGs need someone to lead the raid, so this criterion should be taken in conjunction with the others below.

 

2. Relatedly, are members of the group conforming to a particular strategy that a guild is accustomed to? There are going to be strategies that many guilds share, but there will sometimes be ways of approaching a fight that is particular to a guild (Operator IX is a good example).

 

3. How is the loot distributed. Are members conforming to a guild's loot rules? In particular, how are the crafting materials treated? Are they distributed by roll, or are they going to a particular guild bank?

 

If members of a particular guild are leading the raid, using fight strategies that are familiar to that guild, and abiding by that guild's loot rules, then it is reasonable to inductively infer that we are dealing with a guild raid group here, as opposed to a PUG.

 

Of course, if members of a particular group have issues with the group claiming a boss kill for a particular guild's progression, then the guild shouldn't claim it. Such concerns would trump the three indicators mentioned above.

 

Now, with regards to the Dread Guard kill. Hit and Run has cleared the fight several times after clearing it with the individual mentioned above. So, the protestations of said individual are now moot.

[bsbrad]

My personal opinion is that the clear should be counted towards Hit&Run as they generally run as a group (if pepoel wish them to post it as Hi&Run+friends then so be it).

 

While we run all our progression raids in-guild I know for some guilds it is difficult to get 10 dedicated raiders who are proficient in their classes to down the content.

 

I prefer for the sake of the community that achievements like clearing NM content be noted and applauded as some of this content can test the most experienced guilds. Having a rapport between the raiders allows everyone to share tactics and strategies that have worked/not-worked.

 

Anyway my 2c

 

P.S. Sorry to hear that Epic is leaving the Server, you will be missed.

[AntonMercer]

I think the main thing is how this was claimed and how the rules affect the people involved. Using the NiM DG claim that Hit and Run claimed as their progression kill. They claimed it as a guild progression kill in which 6/8 people were Hit and Run guild mates. This is all well in good but the rule....

 

"Also, going forward one person can only be counted in one progression team. This means, killing a boss with one raid group will lock you out from killing a boss with another group. I won't be editing any of the old progression list as it wasn't a clearly stated rule but it does cheapen one group's legitimacy. If a group pulls in 2-3 people from another Ops group in order to first time clear content, it won't counted here but grats on the loot and kill."

 

Now following this rule, Hit and Run's "full guild clear" claim locks both Kenji and Gagoogin and their respective guilds from claiming guild progression on this particular fight, which is a little unfair. I believe this is a bit of a literal view but it is a valid one and is the first bold section. Although... if you look at it on a reverse literal view, as highlighted in the second bold section, both Kenji and Gagoogin are in NiM progression ops teams, even though they had not cleared it at the time. Does this exclude them from being picked up by a Hit and Run, or any other guild's, "pug" runs and therefore, keeping with the example, nullify Hit and Run's DG claim? Please keep in mind this is just my thoughts on the matter and that the rules concerning these claims are what is actually being discussed here.

[rsuhandy]

Saying that Hit and Run wouldn't be able to clear it without DWBI and DoA is completely false. For that day we wouldnt have been able to clear it, but since the content was released we have had been pulling both operator 9 and DG(we have cleared dg every week since then with out current group). I wanted it to count as a guild kill because prior to having vaei and Desi, we were a full guild team and we put in a lot of hours working out strategies. The day gag and Kenji stepped in, was to replace to of our raiders who had to leave our group for various reasons, but the weeks prior we had gotten kelsara to 20% and op9 to 5%, so a lot of the work was put in prior. I understand with the current rules we will not get a guild kill and I think it sucks since the core of this group has been representing hit and run since march.

 

Sorry if you took what I wrote as saying Hit and Run wasn't capable of clearing NIM Dread Guards at all. If you read what I wrote all I was implying is that you couldn't have cleared it without Gag and Kenji on that particular kill. If you could have then why did you search out of guild? My point is why didn't you give any credit to Gag and Kenji? IIRC whenever Ascension killed anything they always acknowledged their PUGS, for instance when they acknowledged Flintece when he helped them clear 10 stack Dreadtooth. By claiming it as a Hit and Run kill you selfishly take away from their contributions, since, AFAIK, they are not affiliated with Hit and Run in anyway. As Bart implied, all you would have to do is re-post a kill with your current group that has killed OPIX and Kephess and this would all be a non-issue.

[RancidGuy]

Solatium, Contra Sanctus, and Sparkle Tank & Friends(The Dread Masters) Defeated 10 stacks of Dreadtooth. I will submit the Video as well if need be, here is the screen shot though. It was a blast! Dreadful Entity awaits! xD

 

http://i.imgur.com/6rt5zQI.jpg

[bsbrad]

Solatium, Contra Sanctus, and Sparkle Tank & Friends(The Dread Masters) Defeated 10 stacks of Dreadtooth. I will submit the Video as well if need be, here is the screen shot though. It was a blast! Dreadful Entity awaits! xD

 

http://i.imgur.com/6rt5zQI.jpg

 

Special thanks to Flux and D'ao for setting this up, only took us two pulls which wasn't bad.