The Empire seems to have better writing

[Lesaberisa]

I understand now the perception difference. Sure, the empire is pretty corrupt, but so is the Republic (the SIS appears to be far more ruthless the the imperial intelligience).

 

I'm seriously baffled by this time of moral equivalence, given that it simply isn't borne out by the facts we're presented with. How is corruption (which is clearly demonstrated as something wrong that needs fixing) in the Republic even remotely close to as bad as a magocracy where murder, torture, enslavement and other unequivocally evil acts are par for the course? How is SIS even close to as ruthless as Imperial Intelligence?

 

You've got people being murdered at the whim of Sith, massive amounts of slavery and genocide, people being tortured/disappearing off the streets, and the head of the Empire is planning on genociding the entire galaxy but having some corrupt politicians that are presented as wrong/acting counter to the Republic's ideals is just as bad?

 

I had the feeling I have to stay with the empire, because they need me as a conscience, and that my reports can keep the sith lords reasonable and not making everything worse. Ijust couldn't turn my back on the galaxy and watch it burn. I am there for the people of the empire, not a tool for the higher ups! Working the system from the inside instead of abandoning all that. I just couldn't do that, and that urge to stay there, felt heroic.

 

I'm not seeing how this makes LS Imperial characters 'heroic' as a whole. "I'm not a monster, I just work for/with them and help them accomplish their goals" isn't heroic, it's closer to delusional. A LS Imperial that doesn't act on behalf of the Empire's evil aims (i.e. that didn't help destroy Taris for the evulz, that doesn't help the Sith commit their atrocities, etc.) might have some claim to 'goodness', but someone acting as part of the system is kidding themselves; they may do good deeds, but they're helping to perpetuate an evil system.

 

---------------------

 

As for the topic as a whole, there seems to be a lot of projection; it seems like some posters buy into the "Evil is Cool"/"Good is Boring" trope, and then pick things they feel supports that claim rather than the other way around. I think the moral issues that, say, a trooper faces (i.e. the kinds of "regular person" decisions that they can't handwave away with Force philosophy) are actually compelling. I don't see the Imperial stories as being better as a whole (I do think Agent is the best overall, but the BH story is pretty weak, SI is iffy and the Warrior one is basically the Imperial equivalent to the JK power trip story), and I don't see any compelling argument for Bioware thinking it's cooler either.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Lesaberisa

[Drudenfusz]

I'm seriously baffled by this time of moral equivalence, given that it simply isn't borne out by the facts we're presented with. How is corruption (which is clearly demonstrated as something wrong that needs fixing) in the Republic even remotely close to as bad as a magocracy where murder, torture, enslavement and other unequivocally evil acts are par for the course? How is SIS even close to as ruthless as Imperial Intelligence?

I will try to explain. Coruscant has plenty of quests that show corrupt politicians and senators, basically almost all of them are involved in some shady deals, one is trading slaves, one used money from criminals to get into power (eve though she had ideals), I get asked to steal from a senator because he might be sympathise with the empire. That is the black heart of the republic! Almost every SIS agent one can meet in the game is a douchebag and should you have played the companion story with Aric Jorgan as Trooper who would know how deep the rabbit hole goes. On the other hand, most agents of imperial intelligence are quite nice guys, not even for empire players, but also those you can meet as a republic character. And finally, genocide and such things, have you played the bonus series on Hoth and what the General is telling you at the end what they are planning to do there? Have you played Belsavis and seen what the republic did there in the high security section with their inmates? No, the republic is as evil as the empire is, just because they have a political system that we asocate with freedon and other good things, doesn't make them any good!

 

You've got people being murdered at the whim of Sith, massive amounts of slavery and genocide, people being tortured/disappearing off the streets, and the head of the Empire is planning on genociding the entire galaxy but having some corrupt politicians that are presented as wrong/acting counter to the Republic's ideals is just as bad?

SWTOR makes a good point in showing that it ain't just a few corrupt ones in the republic, there are a lot of them. The only difference is that the empire do their thing in the open, while the rupublic does it in the shadows. And then there is of course always, that the Jedi started the whole genocide thing in the first place thousands of years ago, and so one could argue that they just reap what they sow.

 

I'm not seeing how this makes LS Imperial characters 'heroic' as a whole. "I'm not a monster, I just work for/with them and help them accomplish their goals" isn't heroic, it's closer to delusional. A LS Imperial that doesn't act on behalf of the Empire's evil aims (i.e. that didn't help destroy Taris for the evulz, that doesn't help the Sith commit their atrocities, etc.) might have some claim to 'goodness', but someone acting as part of the system is kidding themselves; they may do good deeds, but they're helping to perpetuate an evil system.

Maybe I have this understanding of heroism because I am a German, that I can see people in a corrupt system doing good things as heroes, like Oskar Schindler or Claus von Stauffenberg and many more who lived during that time an dnot just dropped everything to leave Germany but cared about others and remained because of them.

 

As for the topic as a whole, there seems to be a lot of projection; it seems like some posters buy into the "Evil is Cool"/"Good is Boring" trope, and then pick things they feel supports that claim rather than the other way around. I think the moral issues that, say, a trooper faces (i.e. the kinds of "regular person" decisions that they can't handwave away with Force philosophy) are actually compelling. I don't see the Imperial stories as being better as a whole (I do think Agent is the best overall, but the BH story is pretty weak, SI is iffy and the Warrior one is basically the Imperial equivalent to the JK power trip story), and I don't see any compelling argument for Bioware thinking it's cooler either.

Sure, it is normal that people see in stories what they already have in them, nothing wrong there. But still, I thing that so many people think the imperial stories are overall better should make one thinking. Don't get me wrong, my main is republic, and I prefer the ideals which that fraction should have far more to the imperial. But, still I cannot avoid thinking that most imperial stories are just better told (not just the class stories, but also the world arcs or even many of the normal quests).

[Lesaberisa]

Coruscant has plenty of quests that show corrupt politicians and senators, basically almost all of them are involved in some shady deals, one is trading slaves, one used money from criminals to get into power (eve though she had ideals), I get asked to steal from a senator because he might be sympathise with the empire. That is the black heart of the republic!

 

Yes, you deal with problems on Coruscant because that's how a game functions. It wouldn't make sense for the player to visit a world without problems, would it? (Note, you don't visit any of the 95% of the planet that is functioning correctly). I'd also note that on Dromund Kaas you run into crazy cultists, murderers, mass enslavement, commit mass murder against rebelling slaves (where the "LS" option is to give them a quick death), deal with power-mad Sith and face not one but two rebellious Sith lords, one of whom is invading the planet.

 

Almost every SIS agent one can meet in the game is a douchebag and should you have played the companion story with Aric Jorgan as Trooper who would know how deep the rabbit hole goes.

 

Huh? So because Special Agent Zane is a zealot every SIS agent is one? Balkar is a nice/reasonable guy that actively helps you out. The Twi'lek one on Nar Shaddaa that gives a heroic quest is trying to save people while avoiding unnecessary bloodshed. The one in Shadow Town agrees with you if you go LS with the corrupted Jedi in Shadowtown, saying that the Republic is about offering people aid where the Empire would kill/refuse them. Where are all these nefarious SIS agents that are dbags?

 

And finally, genocide and such things, have you played the bonus series on Hoth and what the General is telling you at the end what they are planning to do there? Have you played Belsavis and seen what the republic did there in the high security section with their inmates?

 

So you name two cases of bad Republic actions and equate the entire Republic with the Empire? How about (various story spoilers)

 

 

The Empire actually using or attempting to use multiple superweapons in the Knight storyline? Breaking the Dread Masters out of Belsavis? The Emperor's plan to wipe out the entire galaxy? The Silencer/Gauntlet/other superweapons? Wiping out Taris in a fit of pique? Darth Baras deliberately trying to provoke a war? The poisoning of all the slaves in a Dromund Kaas planetary quest? The Sith killing innocent civilians in Kaas City? Torturing civilians on Taris? The Empire attempting to commit genocide against the Evocii on Nar Shaddaa? Basically everything any Sith NPC does. Etc, etc.

 

 

Not to mention it's strange to the experiments on Belsavis considering the game itself points out that the Republic NPCs (including the acting warden) consider what was going on to be a heinous crime (even the politician responsible says it was necessary, and doesn't make a moral argument). The Imperial reaction? "Hey, that was a good idea." There's no equivalence, the Empire is worse. It's also strange to bring up the "many" corrupt politicians on Coruscant when one of them is involved in the slave trade, something which is legal and very active in the Empire. Slavery is banned in the Republic. False equivalency!

 

No, the republic is as evil as the empire is, just because they have a political system that we asocate with freedon and other good things, doesn't make them any good!

 

No, the fact that evil acts (which occur far less often and on a smaller scale than they do in the Empire) are seen as bad things that need to be stopped is why the Republic is better. How on earth is corruption which is treated as abnormal and something to be fixed as bad as genocide and other atrocities which are a normal part of day to day life in the Empire?

 

SWTOR makes a good point in showing that it ain't just a few corrupt ones in the republic, there are a lot of them. The only difference is that the empire do their thing in the open, while the rupublic does it in the shadows. And then there is of course always, that the Jedi started the whole genocide thing in the first place thousands of years ago, and so one could argue that they just reap what they sow.

 

"The Jedi started it" is not at all relevant to a discussion on the TOR-era Republic supposedly being as evil as the TOR-era Empire. The Republic does not commit mass genocide "in the shadows", nor is there anywhere near as much corruption as there is in the Empire. You still haven't provided any kind of coherent argument to demonstrate how the corruption in the Republic (which clearly isn't as widespread as you think given the lifespan of the Republic and the fact that the entire apparatus functions rather well for a supposedly rotten political system) is anywhere near as morally reprehensible as the Empire and Sith.

 

Last I checked, people aren't murdered because the Jedi feel like it. There aren't Republic citizens being dragged off the streets to be tortured by the SIS. Slavery is banned in the Republic, which also isn't ruled by a corrupt and psychotic group of mystics. Are there problems? Obviously, yes, but there's a system in place for them to be dealt with. In the Empire? As Elara notes in her conversations, the Imperial military talks about honor but they'll do all sorts of awful things and ignore morals, ethics and 'honor' the moment a Sith asks them to.

 

 

Maybe I have this understanding of heroism because I am a German, that I can see people in a corrupt system doing good things as heroes, like Oskar Schindler or Claus von Stauffenberg and many more who lived during that time an dnot just dropped everything to leave Germany but cared about others and remained because of them.

 

It's interesting you bring up von Stauffenberg because - in many ways - he's somewhat similar to what a LS Imperial actually is versus what people seem to think they are. Von Stauffenberg was a conservative German whose reasons for turning against Hitler/the Nazis were less ideological and more practical; he and the other members of the opposition in the military were not consumed by moral concerns so much as they wanted to preserve Germany and their conception of what it should be (which was still a conservative, minority-unfriendly place) from utter destruction. Is there value in that? Yes, of course. A successful July 20 plot that puts Beck in charge in place of Hitler seems assuredly better than leaving Hitler in power. That doesn't make Stauffenberg or Beck or any of the others heroes per se, though I can appreciate the sentiment.

 

Now let's look at the LS Imperial. They're actively complicit in atrocities (Imperial Taris, Dromund Kaas, various actions in class stories, etc.), and there's nothing concrete to their plots to reform the Empire. There's no organization, nothing in the story to suggest it's at all reasonable for them to claim they're going to effect any kind of meaningful change. The LS Imperial is, at best, the Wehrmacht officer that has moral qualms about what the SS and others are doing, avoids participating in some of them, but still gets their hands dirty and doesn't actively take a stand. The LS Imperial shouldn't be considered a hero simply because they're not a complete monster.

 

Put another way, a LS Imperial isn't a hero, they're just humane enough to not be total monsters. There are some genuinely 'good' actions done, but any 'character' thinking they are going to reform the empire is delusional (A LS SW has this problem, for example, since they're directly serving a master that wants to wipe out all life in the galaxy).

 

 

Sure, it is normal that people see in stories what they already have in them, nothing wrong there. But still, I thing that so many people think the imperial stories are overall better should make one thinking. Don't get me wrong, my main is republic, and I prefer the ideals which that fraction should have far more to the imperial. But, still I cannot avoid thinking that most imperial stories are just better told (not just the class stories, but also the world arcs or even many of the normal quests).

 

So many? There's what, maybe two dozen people total posting in this topic? Not all of them even agree with the idea that Imperial stories are better, so I don't see why this is particularly convincing. Leaving that point aside, there's almost no actual arguments being made, just vague statements like "it just feels like Bioware thinks the Empire is cooler" and linking of tropes that it seems posters agree with, even when Bioware does not, and people trying to argue that there's somehow more moral depth to a decision-making scale that is either "I'm a complete monster and am going to murder puppies" and "Well, I find murdering puppies distasteful, so I won't, but someone else probably will anyway."

 

I mean, there's a lot of people who think Thana Vesh is a well-written and interesting character, which I find...questionable at best. Does that mean I need to accept that Thana Vesh is a well-written and interesting character?

 

EDIT: I completely forgot to mention another fun bit about the Empire; the casual and pervasive anti-alien racism, which is even spouted to the player character's face. But it's cool, there's moral depth there, or something.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Lesaberisa

[Drudenfusz]

Yes, you deal with problems on Coruscant because that's how a game functions. It wouldn't make sense for the player to visit a world without problems, would it? (Note, you don't visit any of the 95% of the planet that is functioning correctly). I'd also note that on Dromund Kaas you run into crazy cultists, murderers, mass enslavement, commit mass murder against rebelling slaves (where the "LS" option is to give them a quick death), deal with power-mad Sith and face not one but two rebellious Sith lords, one of whom is invading the planet.

So, because the empire is openly evil, that mean the things that go wrong in the republic are not an issue?

 

Huh? So because Special Agent Zane is a zealot every SIS agent is one? Balkar is a nice/reasonable guy that actively helps you out. The Twi'lek one on Nar Shaddaa that gives a heroic quest is trying to save people while avoiding unnecessary bloodshed. The one in Shadow Town agrees with you if you go LS with the corrupted Jedi in Shadowtown, saying that the Republic is about offering people aid where the Empire would kill/refuse them. Where are all these nefarious SIS agents that are dbags?

I don't think Agent Zane worked alone, he basically send thousands of soldier into prisons of the empire, just in vain hope that the myth he is believing in might be true... or if he truely could do such things entiely of his own, without having to talk about his decsions with anyone, that might be an even more frieghtning thought of how much power these agents have and what they can do with it.

 

So you name two cases of bad Republic actions and equate the entire Republic with the Empire? How about (various story spoilers)

So, that basically on every world one runs into corrpion of the republic is of no relevance, I could continue to give you examples out of the game, like the guys on Ord Mantel who let civilians run through mine fields, or that the Jedi on Tython have no issue alaughtering fleshraiders (same goes for many other species in the game). And so forth, every world has that, and often enough multiple cases of war crimes and pretty much everything else you can imagine. But that doesn't count, because the empire is the clear evil, so the republic cannot be that evil (reminds me on our real world politicians, always blaming terrorism to get their wars done, which makes the arms industry happy, but hey it is for a good cause!).

 

The Empire actually using or attempting to use multiple superweapons in the Knight storyline? Breaking the Dread Masters out of Belsavis? The Emperor's plan to wipe out the entire galaxy? The Silencer/Gauntlet/other superweapons? Wiping out Taris in a fit of pique? Darth Baras deliberately trying to provoke a war? The poisoning of all the slaves in a Dromund Kaas planetary quest? The Sith killing innocent civilians in Kaas City? Torturing civilians on Taris? The Empire attempting to commit genocide against the Evocii on Nar Shaddaa? Basically everything any Sith NPC does. Etc, etc.

The empire don'T care about the Evocii, they get killed by the Hutts, and the Hutts are neutral to the Empire.

 

Not to mention it's strange to the experiments on Belsavis considering the game itself points out that the Republic NPCs (including the acting warden) consider what was going on to be a heinous crime (even the politician responsible says it was necessary, and doesn't make a moral argument). The Imperial reaction? "Hey, that was a good idea." There's no equivalence, the Empire is worse. It's also strange to bring up the "many" corrupt politicians on Coruscant when one of them is involved in the slave trade, something which is legal and very active in the Empire. Slavery is banned in the Republic. False equivalency!

So, just doing a crime and not even thinking about morality makes it less bad? Wow, just wow. Don't know what to say about that.

 

No, the fact that evil acts (which occur far less often and on a smaller scale than they do in the Empire) are seen as bad things that need to be stopped is why the Republic is better. How on earth is corruption which is treated as abnormal and something to be fixed as bad as genocide and other atrocities which are a normal part of day to day life in the Empire?

Lip service? The republic does all the same things, they claim they are the moral superior, but they are not. They sell out their allies, build their own weapons of mass destruction (like Hammerstation for example, which was a republic superweapon!). They through people without judge and jury into prison (or keeps even the destents of inmates in prison on Belsavis). For all I see, it seems that corruption is in the republic also part of the daily life. Look, even most NPCs, are not even react shoked when you tell them about some kind of corruption, seems like pretty much everyone is expecting it.

 

"The Jedi started it" is not at all relevant to a discussion on the TOR-era Republic supposedly being as evil as the TOR-era Empire. The Republic does not commit mass genocide "in the shadows", nor is there anywhere near as much corruption as there is in the Empire. You still haven't provided any kind of coherent argument to demonstrate how the corruption in the Republic (which clearly isn't as widespread as you think given the lifespan of the Republic and the fact that the entire apparatus functions rather well for a supposedly rotten political system) is anywhere near as morally reprehensible as the Empire and Sith.

The republic commits mass genocide! Fleshraiders, Esh-kar (only the Consular keeps a few as cannon fodder), basically the plan for Hoth and everybody there (sure, not heavily populated, still planed mass murder). How the republic deals with the separatists on Ord Mantel, and Sandpeople get also no protection and are basically open to be killed.

 

Last I checked, people aren't murdered because the Jedi feel like it. There aren't Republic citizens being dragged off the streets to be tortured by the SIS. Slavery is banned in the Republic, which also isn't ruled by a corrupt and psychotic group of mystics. Are there problems? Obviously, yes, but there's a system in place for them to be dealt with. In the Empire? As Elara notes in her conversations, the Imperial military talks about honor but they'll do all sorts of awful things and ignore morals, ethics and 'honor' the moment a Sith asks them to.

Funny, Jedi don't murder when they feel like it? You must play a different game than me. I get plenty of bonus quests in which I have to kill plenty of people with which I have no quarrel. And what happened when I didn't killed all of them with my consular? I got pretty underleveled for stealthing around them and only go for the main targets.

 

I am pretty sure the SIS abducts and turtures people, and they do that not openly, but secret police style in the night. Look for example in the Lost Sun comics, Theron Shan pretty much abducts there this Twi'lek, sure they is involved in crime, but that was still far away from due process. And that comic plays around the time you level your character!

 

It's interesting you bring up von Stauffenberg because - in many ways - he's somewhat similar to what a LS Imperial actually is versus what people seem to think they are. Von Stauffenberg was a conservative German whose reasons for turning against Hitler/the Nazis were less ideological and more practical; he and the other members of the opposition in the military were not consumed by moral concerns so much as they wanted to preserve Germany and their conception of what it should be (which was still a conservative, minority-unfriendly place) from utter destruction. Is there value in that? Yes, of course. A successful July 20 plot that puts Beck in charge in place of Hitler seems assuredly better than leaving Hitler in power. That doesn't make Stauffenberg or Beck or any of the others heroes per se, though I can appreciate the sentiment.

 

Now let's look at the LS Imperial. They're actively complicit in atrocities (Imperial Taris, Dromund Kaas, various actions in class stories, etc.), and there's nothing concrete to their plots to reform the Empire. There's no organization, nothing in the story to suggest it's at all reasonable for them to claim they're going to effect any kind of meaningful change. The LS Imperial is, at best, the Wehrmacht officer that has moral qualms about what the SS and others are doing, avoids participating in some of them, but still gets their hands dirty and doesn't actively take a stand. The LS Imperial shouldn't be considered a hero simply because they're not a complete monster.

 

Put another way, a LS Imperial isn't a hero, they're just humane enough to not be total monsters. There are some genuinely 'good' actions done, but any 'character' thinking they are going to reform the empire is delusional (A LS SW has this problem, for example, since they're directly serving a master that wants to wipe out all life in the galaxy).

Maybe I am just more into down to earth heroism. But, sure the Imperial Agent is not the shining knight the Jedi Knight is at light V. I just prefer the everyday hero over a propheseid hero. Both are legit ways for hero stories, doesn't make one kind less of a hero. It seems like you prefer the other kind (not surprising, Star Wars is pretty much build on that).

 

So many? There's what, maybe two dozen people total posting in this topic? Not all of them even agree with the idea that Imperial stories are better, so I don't see why this is particularly convincing. Leaving that point aside, there's almost no actual arguments being made, just vague statements like "it just feels like Bioware thinks the Empire is cooler" and linking of tropes that it seems posters agree with, even when Bioware does not, and people trying to argue that there's somehow more moral depth to a decision-making scale that is either "I'm a complete monster and am going to murder puppies" and "Well, I find murdering puppies distasteful, so I won't, but someone else probably will anyway."

 

I mean, there's a lot of people who think Thana Vesh is a well-written and interesting character, which I find...questionable at best. Does that mean I need to accept that Thana Vesh is a well-written and interesting character?

Enough that such a topic arises every now and then. Even if BioWare did never intended it to be that way, it is still interesting that plenty of people feel that way and it resurfaces quite often in discussions about the game. Often enough that there might be something true about it.

 

EDIT: I completely forgot to mention another fun bit about the Empire; the casual and pervasive anti-alien racism, which is even spouted to the player character's face. But it's cool, there's moral depth there, or something.

Sure, most higher ups in the republic don't treat aliens as bad as imperials do, still there is racism going on in the republic (mostly when NPCs talk about other NPCs, and that is also not that rare and happen on every world you visit). So, even there, the empire is just more direct and open about it, but the same issue is prevalent in the republic.

[AlexDougherty]

I understand now the perception difference. Sure, the empire is pretty corrupt, but so is the Republic (the SIS appears to be far more ruthless the the imperial intelligience)..

 

Umm, No, not even close, yes SIS has people who will use you, but it's for the greater good (in their opinion), they are trying to do what's best for the greatest number of people. Imperial Intelligence is trying to please the whims of their masters, rather than what's best for the Empire as a whole.

 

Also you've missed that what is corrupt behaviour for the Republic is accepted normal behaviour for the Empire, the Empire has sunk far deeper already than the Republic ever will, and that's including when Palpatine turns the Republic into the Galatic Empire. The levels of depravity that Sith can get up to transcends what the most corrupt Senator can dream of, the more powerful a Sith becomes, the more they can get away with, and the more vile their appetites become.

 

I had the feeling I have to stay with the empire, because they need me as a conscience, and that my reports can keep the sith lords reasonable and not making everything worse. I just couldn't turn my back on the galaxy and watch it burn. I am there for the people of the empire, not a tool for the higher ups! Working the system from the inside instead of abandoning all that. I just couldn't do that, and that urge to stay there, felt heroic.

 

This is the crux, You feel that the Empire is being held off from the worst crimes by your actions, but this is not the case, the Dark Council doesn't care about any Non-Sith, the Sith Lords only care about those pawns who are useful, and the Sith Apprentices are too weak to exert any real authority.

 

That Satele is staying and do nothing still felt wrong. And no, that other classes also have their own suicidal solo missions is not the same. It is about the future of the entire order, and if anything goes wrong I am the only hope. Nobody would even notice if my agent got killed against the conspiracy, and plenty of other class quest feel the same, sure, you are the hero, but should you fail the situation becomes not that much worse, they send just someone else. I am not sure (have to try it next time I play a trooper again), but even should I fail most of my tasks in Chapter 3, I still guess it would not become impossible to get it finished.

 

On the other hand, I really thing it would have been awesome if Satele joins me for that mission, like Thana joins imps on Taris... now that I am thinking about it, someone should tell BioWare this, guess they could implement this.

 

Satele Shan is not as young as she used to be, and even in her youth she was never a great fighter, her greatest strength is her ability to organise the order, she is not running around getting in the way, she is enabling other jedi to go where they need to, get the information they need, arranging support if possible with local authorities, and a thousand other logistical jobs. Yes a non-Jedi could probably do it, but they might miss things her force trained mind doesn't, and fail to perceive patterns indicating darkside influences. It's a shame we don't have a super-hero figure in the order to inspire us, but then again Revan and the Exile were similarly bereft in their stories, and had to become that inspiration themselves.

Edited September 4, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Master-Nala]

I understand now the perception difference. Sure, the empire is pretty corrupt, but so is the Republic (the SIS appears to be far more ruthless the the imperial intelligience). I had the feeling I have to stay with the empire, because they need me as a conscience, and that my reports can keep the sith lords reasonable and not making everything worse. Ijust couldn't turn my back on the galaxy and watch it burn. I am there for the people of the empire, not a tool for the higher ups! Working the system from the inside instead of abandoning all that. I just couldn't do that, and that urge to stay there, felt heroic.

 

I disagree. The difference is that the Empire relishes its evil. The SIS know they are being jerks but feel that it's necessary evil with the Empire breathing down its neck.

 

The Republic is not as bad as the Empire because they try to be good. An example is Project Noble Focus on Belsavis. The Republic characters treat this as a big scandal, the Imps are just ticked they didn't think of it first.

 

Sure, with Syo you are right, but I think that could have been better foreshadowed there. That Satele is staying and do nothing still felt wrong. And no, that other classes also have their own suicidal solo missions is not the same. It is about the future of the entire order, and if anything goes wrong I am the only hope. Nobody would even notice if my agent got killed against the conspiracy, and plenty of other class quest feel the same, sure, you are the hero, but should you fail the situation becomes not that much worse, they send just someone else. I am not sure (have to try it next time I play a trooper again), but even should I fail most of my tasks in Chapter 3, I still guess it would not become impossible to get it finished.

 

I think the story could have handled it better, but Act I is basically the Consular going around and shielding/killing the masters to keep the lid on the plague while the Masters look for clues and a source. Also, we know from the Knight story and Esseles that Satele had other stuff on her plate.

 

I like that the Consular and Knight have quests in Act 1 and beyond that are epic in scope. They fail and the poop hits the fan. As you say, if the Imps failed, any of them, another would have taken their place. The Agent is ironically the most important of the 4 in that regard.

 

On the other hand, I really thing it would have been awesome if Satele joins me for that mission, like Thana joins imps on Taris... now that I am thinking about it, someone should tell BioWare this, guess they could implement this.

 

I don't know if you ever played City of Heroes, but I used to hate missions where signature characters joined. They were either superfluous or they could solo the mission themselves. Neither were satisfying. Likewise with Thana she was there for comic relief not because she was doing anything!

[Master-Nala]

No, the republic is as evil as the empire is, just because they have a political system that we asocate with freedon and other good things, doesn't make them any good!

 

That's just dead wrong. The Empire revels in evil. Where do you see this good in the Empire? Political corruption is not the same as genocide/slavery/conquest for the lulz.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Master-Nala

[Helig]

That's just dead wrong. The Empire revels in evil. Where do you see this good in the Empire? Political corruption is not the same as genocide/slavery/conquest for the lulz.

But it's not for the lulz - it's for the greater good of the Galaxy! For order! For prosperity! For cleansing the Universe of all that is weak and impure!

 

Am I doing this right?

[Devrius]

But it's not for the lulz - it's for the greater good of the Galaxy! For order! For prosperity! For cleansing the Universe of all that is weak and impure!

 

Am I doing this right?

 

You forgot to say "something, something, dark side" but otherwise it was pretty good.

[Eillack]

BW has been Empire - biased from the beginning sadly; just look at all the development videos / interviews and maybe twice did the Republic get any love. They pretty much it were nothing but Empire-shirt-wearing interviews..

[Projawa]

story rankings imo:

 

warrior

agent

inquisitor

knight

consular

smuggler

trooper

bh

[Bleeters]

If I'm playing as, say, a light-side Sith Warrior who wants to reform the Empire from within (or even just destroy it), why in blue blazes would the character want to, say, go free the Dread Masters from confinement? Isn't it laughably hypocritical for a Bounty Hunter who never misses an opportunity to mention that he's a free agent to basically be the Empire's personal troubleshooter and go-to guy? If your Sith Inquisitor is on the run from the Powers That Be on the Dark Council, why in the galaxy is she spending almost all her time personally working for...the Dark Council? Stuff like that. These things aren't just some role-playing difficulty, but in-game story content that actually contradicts other in-game story content.

Indeed. As much as I loved the agent story, I quickly grew tired of putting my ship down on some backwater planet, running into a random questgiver, and having them enthusiastically greet me and relate how they've heard a great deal of my accomplishments/I'm just the person to solve a problem the Empire is having/I'm a fine example of imperial intelligence, so on and so forth.

 

Guys. Guys. You shouldn't even know who I am, let alone what I've been up to. When Voss commandos of all people know I'm an imperial agent, something is seriously wrong with how intelligence operates.

 

(I'm not even going to touch how, after ending the class story via the 'neutral' path and disappearing, various questgivers knew my character straight away anyway and made reference to past story choices and side quests)

Edited September 13, 2013 by Bleeters