Rhyft Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 I've seen the concept debated endlessly, but despite searching as thoroughly as I could I am still unable to find a definitive answer regarding the selection of unlettered (low-endurance) vs B-variant (high-endurance) mods in gearing up a tank; specifically, a Shadow/Sin tank due to their reliance on self-healing abilities that depend on base HP. While I know the low endurance enhancements are universally preferred for all existing game content, it looks like there are differing schools of thought when it comes to the endurance-to-mitigation tradeoff that you get with unlettered vs B-variant mods. Please let me know what you consider to be the better mod, and don't forget to post your class. Cheers!
KeyboardNinja Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 (edited) Ok, general principle here… Dipstik did the math, and the unlettered mods provide better stochastic survivability than the lettered mods for anything at Nightmare level and most of the bosses at the Hard level. With that said, the main weakness of shadows is not stochastic survivability but windowed spikiness. Spike damage isn't really helped by the unlettered mods (or the lettered mods, for that matter), but the lettered mods do provide a larger buffer that can help the healers catch up in case you do get spiked. You're basically trading away a small amount of efficiency for a slightly larger buffer. Depending on your school of thought, that's a good trade. Honestly, I would talk to your healers. See what they prefer. If they prefer to have a larger pool at the expense of having to heal you a bit more, then go with the lettered mods. Otherwise, unlettered. Bear in mind that the unlettered mods are easier to get at the Kell Dragon tier, but the lettered mods are easier to acquire at the Underworld tier. Oh, and lettered mods only make sense for shadows/assassins. You wouldn't even think about using them with another tank class. Edited August 29, 2013 by KeyboardNinja
Rhyft Posted August 29, 2013 Author Posted August 29, 2013 Thanks KBN! That's awfully clear and concise. Straight from the horse's mouth too. By any chance, has the math been done on the effectiveness of running a hybrid/combination of lettered and unlettered mods? Does this approach provide a nice middle-ground, or does it just hinder our ability to gain either of the benefits (i.e. is running full lettered/unlettered significantly more effective than running half and half? Is committing one way or the other a better option choice?) Since it's not an even 1:1 exchange between endurance and mitigation, I'm inclined to think it's better to pick one approach and stick with it to gain any sort of benefit, but I very well may be wrong. I appreciate any additional insight you can provide. Cheers!
KeyboardNinja Posted August 29, 2013 Posted August 29, 2013 By any chance, has the math been done on the effectiveness of running a hybrid/combination of lettered and unlettered mods? Does this approach provide a nice middle-ground, or does it just hinder our ability to gain either of the benefits (i.e. is running full lettered/unlettered significantly more effective than running half and half? Is committing one way or the other a better option choice?) Since it's not an even 1:1 exchange between endurance and mitigation, I'm inclined to think it's better to pick one approach and stick with it to gain any sort of benefit, but I very well may be wrong. Well, considering that the lettered mods are strictly inferior (at a largely-linear scale) to the unlettered mods, hybrid approaches are exactly that: a middle-ground between the two extremes. I'm currently running fully unlettered mods (with the exception of one of my 75s), and my healers haven't complained about buffer issues. However, every healer (and every healing class) is a bit different. If your healers feel that they need more of a buffer – and there's absolutely no shame in that – then you could swap just a few of your mods and see if it's enough. If they still need more, keep swapping. Switching just one or two mods to the B variants will result in a fairly significant jump in your maximum HP, so you should be able to see results right away.
kwestone Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Well, considering that the lettered mods are strictly inferior (at a largely-linear scale) to the unlettered mods, hybrid approaches are exactly that: a middle-ground between the two extremes. I'm currently running fully unlettered mods (with the exception of one of my 75s), and my healers haven't complained about buffer issues. However, every healer (and every healing class) is a bit different. If your healers feel that they need more of a buffer – and there's absolutely no shame in that – then you could swap just a few of your mods and see if it's enough. If they still need more, keep swapping. Switching just one or two mods to the B variants will result in a fairly significant jump in your maximum HP, so you should be able to see results right away. Hey KBN, a guildie pointed my to this site: http://www.pgclan.net/?p=159#more-159 which has almost opposite numbers in respect to Shadow/Assassin Defense/Absord stats. Can you give me your two cents on it? I started stacking defense to see if it would really make a difference, but I ran out of mods/enhancements so I wanted to get some second/third opinions before I continue.
THoK-Zeus Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Hey KBN, a guildie pointed my to this site: http://www.pgclan.net/?p=159#more-159 which has almost opposite numbers in respect to Shadow/Assassin Defense/Absord stats. Can you give me your two cents on it? I started stacking defense to see if it would really make a difference, but I ran out of mods/enhancements so I wanted to get some second/third opinions before I continue. Totally worthless, he's not even gettin 60% migation (he also writes that in his spreadsheet). With KBN/dipstick/tor-tank... numbers you get about 70% migation from attacks as a sin tank.
KeyboardNinja Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Hey KBN, a guildie pointed my to this site: http://www.pgclan.net/?p=159#more-159 which has almost opposite numbers in respect to Shadow/Assassin Defense/Absord stats. Can you give me your two cents on it? I started stacking defense to see if it would really make a difference, but I ran out of mods/enhancements so I wanted to get some second/third opinions before I continue. As a general rule, you will have a very hard time getting rid of enough defense to be balanced even for HM S&V. NiM S&V and (even more so) NiM TfB are much more F/T heavy, which pushes the ideal stat distribution almost entirely into the "no defense" arena. I'm with Thok on this one, and I wouldn't really trust pgclan's numbers. Dipstik, Thok and myself have done work here that has been very extensively vetted and tested. I think you can have pretty high confidence in our numbers at this point.
Berjiz Posted September 1, 2013 Posted September 1, 2013 Ok, general principle here… Dipstik did the math, and the unlettered mods provide better stochastic survivability than the lettered mods for anything at Nightmare level and most of the bosses at the Hard level. With that said, the main weakness of shadows is not stochastic survivability but windowed spikiness. Spike damage isn't really helped by the unlettered mods (or the lettered mods, for that matter), but the lettered mods do provide a larger buffer that can help the healers catch up in case you do get spiked. You're basically trading away a small amount of efficiency for a slightly larger buffer. Depending on your school of thought, that's a good trade. Honestly, I would talk to your healers. See what they prefer. If they prefer to have a larger pool at the expense of having to heal you a bit more, then go with the lettered mods. Otherwise, unlettered. Bear in mind that the unlettered mods are easier to get at the Kell Dragon tier, but the lettered mods are easier to acquire at the Underworld tier. Oh, and lettered mods only make sense for shadows/assassins. You wouldn't even think about using them with another tank class. If you go full high endurance how is the mean migation compered to juggers/pts in unlettered?
KeyboardNinja Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 (edited) If you go full high endurance how is the mean migation compered to juggers/pts in unlettered? Off the top of my head, I don't remember the prcise number. The multiplicative difference should be on the order of 10-12% though. So, it would most certainly be noticeable. Edited September 3, 2013 by KeyboardNinja
Berjiz Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 Off the top of my head, I don't remember the prcise number. The multiplicative difference should be on the order of 10-12% though. So, it would most certainly be noticeable. 10-12% worse? Not sure what you mean with multiplicative difference, you mean the loss in mean migation for the sin/shadow?
KeyboardNinja Posted September 3, 2013 Posted September 3, 2013 10-12% worse? Not sure what you mean with multiplicative difference, you mean the loss in mean migation for the sin/shadow? For a guardian, actually, since HP does nothing to help their mitigation. Multiplicative difference is something like this: if you have 70% mitigation with unlettered mods, a 10% multiplicative difference would mean you have 63% with lettered mods (as opposed to additive, which would give you 60%).
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