How can this game lack innovation so much...

[malistyx]

I have been meaning to write this review for some time now, but every time I found an excuse to postpone doing so. I believe this last announced PvP update is what finally pulled the trigger. I am sure many of you guys will disagree with what will be mentioned below but keep in mind this is my point of view. You are free to debate any point you like but please keep it civil.

 

Just to put things into perspective I have been a subscriber in this game from the beginning. I had been a subscriber to Star Wars Galaxies for more than 7 years and throughout all its phases. (Pre-CU, CU, NGE, post NGE, final days).

 

I am still surprised on how SWTOR with its huge budget came up so short… The lack of innovation is simply astonishing. I mean sure like most people out there I really enjoyed the storyline and the dialogues, but even that gets old very fast and other than this, what does SWTOR have to offer? Let us compare a few systems between SWTOR and SWG to see what I mean.

 

For PvE, as mentioned earlier SWTOR looked amazing with its storyline, an element that bioware from the Baldur’s Gate days had mastered. SWG on the other hand being a first generation MMORPG, quest wise it was the typical fed-ex, gather, kill number of type of quests.

 

If one looks under the surface though, after leveling up one character in both games, he would realize that in SWTOR you mostly do the same lame quests just with voice over and cinematics. This is an amazing experience for the first time but it gets old VERY fast. Furthermore, how many times will it take before you are disgusted from that flashpoint or that operation no matter how well it is designed? Nightmare mode? Seriously? At least for me, there goes immersion…

 

On SWG on the other hand your leveling quest options, while of the same basic nature, were spread out over the galaxy in endless paths. On top of that what really made the difference was that SWG, at least in its latest form, had many end-game systems to greatly expand your experience. While its heroic quests (operation equivalents) were very simplistic and sub-par compared to SWTOR, you had other systems such as the Galactic Civil War, Player Cities, Creature Handler and quite a few others.

 

Each of these systems added to the player experience and to the world immersion making you feel like living in a Star Wars universe. For instance part for the GCW, all planets were divided into smaller influence areas in each of these areas undertaking factional quests gave you side points which eventually shifted the area to your side. For the major cities there was the Invasion system where, each Faction had to defend/attack the city based on its score in the region.

 

What does SWTOR have to compare… Nothing. Even the NPC spawn system in SWG was half static half dynamic, in SWTOR it is the same guys shooting the same other guys over and over for eternity in the same spot… Firs time you see it feels nice, but after that it just feels fake.

 

SWG had housing and player cities. You could choose you own house (which was player crafted) place it almost anywhere in the world you liked and use your imagination to decorate the interior with endless possibilities. On top of that you could use your guild, friend or simple real estate incentives to gather more people, form and run a city with taxes, shops, areas of specialization etc. The world changed everytime you logged in.

 

SWTOR has… a ship. The same ship for every sith in the galaxy, with zero customization options. That is all.

In SWG you could be a non combatant entertainer or crafter (in the older days there were many more professions which were later bottle necked into specific paths), be a combatant with one of the factions, remain neutral etc.

In SWTOR every sith warrior ends up being the emperor’s wrath, while every sith inquisitor a member of the dark council etc. The title loses its meaning. If it was a single player game like Baldur’s Gate than it would have worked perfectly, but on an MMO… I would personally prefer being one of the many captains in the imperial army rather than one of the army of emperor’s wrath clones.

 

SWTOR has companions to help you in your quests and provide some more depth to the character stories. Very good idea, very badly implemented. In Baldur’s gate companion stories were so good that you could have restarted the game with different companion configurations just to see it play out. In SWTOR there is no real dilemma, no real choice you have to make and almost every choice you make (with few notable exceptions) leads to the same outcome. On top of that to make things worse you can even interrupt the dialogue if it does not go your way, until you are satisfied… So much for this system, after playing let us say a Sith warrior once, it is over for this general class.

 

In SWG you had a few types of companions with different type of behavior and style. You could have droids that could assist you in combat, crafting, entertaining (it was a unique profession in SWG), which were player crafted and customizable. You could have factional troops to support you in combat which to be true were far worse than the SWTOR companions in doing so. Or you could have bio engineered creatures. The last option was a very robust system on its own, involving harvesting DNA from creatures around the galaxy and creating a pet to follow/help you customizable with its own traits and attributes, which could even be result of discovered mutations.

 

Last but not least is space. SWTOR has a starship on rails type of combat with linear progression and customization options, to compare to SWGs fully enabled 3d flight simulator that was introduced with Jump to Lightspeed and easily matched games like Tie fighter. In SWG you had pvp options and ships, depending on type that could be mounted by one, two or up to eight characters. JTL was a game on its own for many that played SWG, while SWTOR space combat, well to put it mildly, is a huge step backwards.

 

PVP is yet another one of the points in SWTOR that was well polished but with a serious lack of vision. Character animations are good and combat is engaging in a warzone. Some warzones like Huttbal were a very pleasant surprise and one of the few innovations SWTOR has to offer. Furthermore the classes are relatively well balanced compared to other MMOs. Problem is that the classes were created with only this in mind and balanced as such. It is next to impossible to have a large scale war with these classes and that was proven amongst others in the Ilum fiasco, where you had melee classes that their only means of participation in the lag fest combat was to buff others in order to get indirect kill counts.

 

SWG combat suffered many upgrades/downgrades. Possibly the best incarnation in my opinion and closest to what SWTOR has was during the CU. While it never reached the combat reflectiveness of SWTOR, it had other merits which again when summed up created an equally interesting if not better experience. In SWG you were not bottlenecked in your choice of weapon, although class bonuses did favor a specific type usually. Furthermore weapon/ability range was up to 64m instead of 30-35m that SWTOR has. This gave a much Star Wars like combat, where the two factions would hold their lines. Even Jedi could hold a blaster and take some shots from range if required.

 

But the ultimate addition to SWG that totally changed the playfield compared to SWTOR was the integration of its robust space combat with the ground combat. In the final months of SWG, atmospheric flight was enabled and characters could take their custom made star fighters or multi passenger ships and support ground combat. You could in fact fly over and shoot at pvpers on the ground with your ships laser cannons while they could respond with RPGs.

 

To sum up I am still perplexed on how SWTOR can have such a lack of vision for the future despite all the different MMO experiences available and the past experience from SWG. Instead of trying to innovate and create, every single choice they make points out to cloning the decaying king of MMOs. While PvP arenas are not a bad option to have, it is one more step further away from having an immersive virtual world in the SW universe. In my humble opinion as a PvPer, FIX FIRST MEANINGFUL WORLD PVP (waiting since Ilum) and then add stuff like arenas. You already have arena like combat with the WZs, if I wanted this type of experience I would playing more COD and not an MMORPG. To those of you that forget, one of the Ms stands for massive, not 16 or 8 player!

[theUndead]

Blah blah blah SWG is better blah blah. So much for a balanced review that was more just a rant of why SWG is better so my only words is. This game is not SWG.

[malistyx]

Blah blah blah SWG is better blah blah. So much for a balanced review that was more just a rant of why SWG is better so my only words is. This game is not SWG.

 

Obviously it is not. It is just sad that it is the only SW MMO out there and yet carried over nothing from the legacy of amazing systems SWG had before it. Instead keeps copying "that one game" even if there are numerous examples showing how this leads to disaster.

[theUndead]

Really? leads to disaster? Ok how about the constant content updates we have been getting or how the CM has brought new life to game. Please tell me how the game is on that road.

[malistyx]

Really? leads to disaster? Ok how about the constant content updates we have been getting or how the CM has brought new life to game. Please tell me how the game is on that road.

 

I did not say the game is on the road to disaster. I said that copying the game (you know which one I am talking about) is a recipe that leads to disaster. Just think about how many other games have tried doing and failed much like this one has so far. Remember what the expectations for SWTOR were regarding replacing the king etc.

 

SWTOR instead of creating its own trend with systems that relate to SW, is trying to replicate what was done in "that game", totally disregarding the fact that the whole genre seems to be changing direction and even "that game" that introduced such systems is losing subs!

 

Do you think for instance that Arenas are more related to SW lore than Space? I am not saying there is no room for them in the game, but PvP can benefit from so many other aspects, such a meaningful space game with pvp combat, that arenas just seem like a relic directly related to that other game more than anything.

 

IT is like they simply cannot get anything innovative of their own, just keep cloning "that game" with a SW skin...

 

As a side not I would like to say that in my humble opinion "that game", while without doubt immensely successful as a computer game, totally ruined the MMORPG genre as it introduced a fast food mentality to it, that only now it is starting to recover from.

Edited August 23, 2013 by malistyx

[MaximusRex]

Obviously it is not. It is just sad that it is the only SW MMO out there and yet carried over nothing from the legacy of amazing systems SWG had before it. Instead keeps copying "that one game" even if there are numerous examples showing how this leads to disaster.

 

Coping "that one game" has given this game more players at its low point than SWG ever had at its peak. While I'd love to see more sandbox like elements, the numbers don't lie, Themepark games are exponentially more popular than Sand Box games.

[Hodsy]

SWTOR is still VERY young.

 

Most games dont even make it out of the gates.

 

Yes SWTOR might not have been that good to begin with but lets face it what brand new game is?

 

Take GW2 for example that was meant to be the MMO to end ALL MMO's but it flopped. Yes people still play it but months after release the forums were full of "dead within a year" posts.

 

We are coming up to SWTOR second year and i think we have come along way since then. The fact that this game has been able to survive going FTP and then go on to release expansion packs and updates so quickly this summer shows signs of things to come.

 

Keep up the good work SWTOR!

[malistyx]

By all means I am hoping they can continue adding systems and supporting the game. I am just not agreeing with the directions they are going at it. It was mentioned that SWTOR is still a young game. I chose not to post anything until now even though I have been playing since the beginning in order to first see where they are headed at. Sure SWTOR will endure and keep existing with probably a slight decline as it ages, but is that what you were hoping for the only SW so called MMORPG out there?

 

Remember the expectations? Didn't you expect something better from this huge budget? Yes there was an expansion which was in fact nothing new or something able to sustain the game in long term. That is the plain truth and that is the reason why developers are abandoning the Themepark type of games. Backbone systems that evolve over time are the future imo.

 

Finally I would like to compare expansions for you to see my point, SWTOR introduced Raise of the Hutt cartel after its first year, while SWG introduced Jump to Lightspeed. Which do you think was a better investment over time or made a heavier impact to the game?

[theUndead]

I did not say the game is on the road to disaster. I said that copying the game (you know which one I am talking about) is a recipe that leads to disaster. Just think about how many other games have tried doing and failed much like this one has so far. Remember what the expectations for SWTOR were regarding replacing the king etc.

 

SWTOR instead of creating its own trend with systems that relate to SW, is trying to replicate what was done in "that game", totally disregarding the fact that the whole genre seems to be changing direction and even "that game" that introduced such systems is losing subs!

 

Do you think for instance that Arenas are more related to SW lore than Space? I am not saying there is no room for them in the game, but PvP can benefit from so many other aspects, such a meaningful space game with pvp combat, that arenas just seem like a relic directly related to that other game more than anything.

 

IT is like they simply cannot get anything innovative of their own, just keep cloning "that game" with a SW skin...

 

As a side not I would like to say that in my humble opinion "that game", while without doubt immensely successful as a computer game, totally ruined the MMORPG genre as it introduced a fast food mentality to it, that only now it is starting to recover from.

 

That's because the model from that other game actually works. Why change something that clearly works, you see this game innovates itself in the best way it can as the rest of the market is absolutely cutthroat. The fact it still has a strong sub base and money to spend on new content is evidence of this. So before you go and write a baseless review remember that this game is still young but if it continues on the road it is going. It will be more successful.

[TheNahash]

Obviously it is not. It is just sad that it is the only SW MMO out there and yet carried over nothing from the legacy of amazing systems SWG had before it. Instead keeps copying "that one game" even if there are numerous examples showing how this leads to disaster.

 

I mean no disrespect to SWG fans and correct me if I'm wrong but did those innovations and "amazing systems" keep SWG from shutting down?

 

And please don't tell me you believe that the sole reason for SWG's death was SWTOR.

As if any company in their right mind would shut down something lucrative for something new and risky.

Edited August 23, 2013 by TheNahash

[Master-Nala]

MMO gamers are inconsistent. They claim to want innovation, but mercilessly criticize it when it is given to them. For example, DCUO's combat, GW2's lack of the trinity, EQ Next's lack of aggro. It's simple, play the game you enjoy. Stop worrying about whether it is successful, whether it has this or that. If you are having fun, then keep playing.

 

OP, no one cares about your review of the game. That sounds harsher than I intend. What I mean is that the democratization that the Internet has given to opinion means that everyone can publish their thoughts. Ironically, this makes those opinions worthless without knowing where the author is coming from.

[malistyx]

I mean no disrespect to SWG fans and correct me if I'm wrong but did those innovations and "amazing systems" keep SWG from shutting down?

 

And please don't tell me you believe that the sole reason for SWG's death was SWTOR.

As if any company in their right mind would shut down something lucrative for something new and risky.

 

I ll give you my opinion on this, whether you accept it or not it is up to you. SWG was way ahead of its time in terms of ideas. If I list them down it will take a while and that is not the point. At the same time it suffered from terrible management decisions and to some extend like SWTOR was trying to chase a a utopia without first securing its base. Also when SWG was released those ideas could not be properly implemented as the technology was not there. Now it is available and yet SWTOR chose to ignore this, to the disappointment of many of us, prefering instead system used in that other game, which in fact will always be better in that other game.

 

Now regarding SWG's death. Was SWTOR the only reason that SWG ended, imo NO. Was it the main reason YES. What I mean is that SWG after 8 years of running had a small player base that had endured all the hardships an MMO could possible have and yet had remained faithful to it. Also keep in mind that until the shutdown was announced SWG still had these numbers with subscription.

 

If SWG had been any other MMO without the SW logo, it would have continued to exist and proof of that are games like Vanguard which belong to the same company with probably even smaller player base, but still running. It was the contractual issues behind the SW licence along with SWG's low income production yet high risk for SWTOR that caused it to shut down. Business wise it was a good decision from LA part as now SWTOR even with F2P would have about two thirds of the population it has as most SWG players would have returned back to SWG as they usually did.

 

Now what you should be asking yourself is how lucrative SWTOR actually is? Investment wise I believe it is a huge flop. SWTOR within a year lost half of its population and although F2P did manage to stabilize things and even get a slight increase, it does not even come near to being lucrative as you say. SWG in its darkest hour (NGE) and one of the worst decisions in MMO history, managed to keep half its population with subscription. Can you imagine SWTOR without F2P?

 

If both games were still active you would have seen an even worse fate for SWTOR, while SWG would have died quietly eventually of old age.

[malistyx]

That's because the model from that other game actually works. Why change something that clearly works, you see this game innovates itself in the best way it can as the rest of the market is absolutely cutthroat. The fact it still has a strong sub base and money to spend on new content is evidence of this. So before you go and write a baseless review remember that this game is still young but if it continues on the road it is going. It will be more successful.

 

If you honestly believe that down the road it will be more successful than by all means believe it. I really hope you are right and I am wrong about this.

 

To me if SWTOR did not have SW skin and it was not the ONLY SW option in the MMO field its days would have been numbered, as it offers nothing different than what is out there in numerous iterations. Will it die soon, NO. They will not let it as it will go down in history for that. Will it be more successful in the future; I hope so, but I do not think so, at best it will keep its numbers and lose population from age. But I do not see how it can be like EVE for instance and grow numbers with the model they are following.

[malistyx]

MMO gamers are inconsistent. They claim to want innovation, but mercilessly criticize it when it is given to them. For example, DCUO's combat, GW2's lack of the trinity, EQ Next's lack of aggro. It's simple, play the game you enjoy. Stop worrying about whether it is successful, whether it has this or that. If you are having fun, then keep playing.

 

OP, no one cares about your review of the game. That sounds harsher than I intend. What I mean is that the democratization that the Internet has given to opinion means that everyone can publish their thoughts. Ironically, this makes those opinions worthless without knowing where the author is coming from.

 

As I mentioned in the beginning of my OP, I wanted to write this for sometime now. I wanted this not to convince everyone else, I know it is not going to happen, but mainly for myself. I do not believe in the direction that is being followed for this game, I do not think it will lead anywhere good. For me SWTOR is the only SW option out there and that is why I stick around. Before eventually leaving this game I just wanted to give one last shot in the dark in case it changes anything. If it does not, which is what is going to happen, at least I tried.

[malistyx]

Coping "that one game" has given this game more players at its low point than SWG ever had at its peak. While I'd love to see more sandbox like elements, the numbers don't lie, Themepark games are exponentially more popular than Sand Box games.

 

True numbers do not lie. How do explain the industry is turning away from themeparks and back to sandbox or at the very least hybrid?

[MSchuyler]

True numbers do not lie. How do explain the industry is turning away from themeparks and back to sandbox or at the very least hybrid?

 

Prove your contention.

[Mistress_Ivi]

This game looks great. It does.

 

This games combat is fun. Really, it is...

 

However. The game engine, aside from looking nice and having some interesting options - lacks - bucketloads, when it comes to the game it took over from.

 

From an MMO-player stand point, who usually plays fantasy styles over Sci-fi's ... this game took over from SWG, the only other Sci-fi MMO I've ever loved. It took it's place but took little to nothing from it.

 

We only JUST got animal mounts coming into the game... welldone, that's an easy one.

 

Still looking for a housing system (impossible for this engine to support)

Still looking for a decent space system (in the works, apparently)

Still looking for more social / non-combat things (Huttball isn't non combat and treasure hunting has combat involved).

 

When you corner the market on something, as is the very case with any starwars MMO (first SWG, now SWTOR) - you make sure you keep the previous (if a previous exists, which in this case DOES) generation of players happy. You take the winning aspects of that game and intergrate them into your game.

 

Want a new advanced class for each of the current 4(8) ? Try Traders (way better crew skill options, gathering etc) and Beast masters/makers. That'd be a start.

[malistyx]

Prove your contention.

 

Just read MMORPG.com articles on the subject. If you are not convinced check the major upcoming titles and the Hype meter. Check how many of those are or claim to be sandboxes.

[theUndead]

Just read MMORPG.com articles on the subject. If you are not convinced check the major upcoming titles and the Hype meter. Check how many of those are or claim to be sandboxes.

 

That is not good enough to base your contention. Review sites like that only give so much non biased information. To me a MMO is judged by how long it lasts and how people remember it, not by the words of a review site.

[AlrikFassbauer]

MMO gamers are inconsistent. They claim to want innovation, but mercilessly criticize it when it is given to them.

 

Delete the word "MMO" in your sentence, and everything is right.

 

I have seen lots of highly innovative games not being bought.

And even only partially innovative games.

People seem to rather stick to sequels instead.

Edited August 24, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[TheNahash]

I ll give you my opinion on this, whether you accept it or not it is up to you. SWG was way ahead of its time in terms of ideas. If I list them down it will take a while and that is not the point. At the same time it suffered from terrible management decisions and to some extend like SWTOR was trying to chase a a utopia without first securing its base. Also when SWG was released those ideas could not be properly implemented as the technology was not there. Now it is available and yet SWTOR chose to ignore this, to the disappointment of many of us, prefering instead system used in that other game, which in fact will always be better in that other game.

 

OK, but my question to you is, if you were a developer would you choose to "copy" ideas from a game that didn't do as well as it was expected and after a while lost a huge part of its player base or from a game that has been consistently lucrative for almost a decade now?

 

I think that a common mistake SWG players make (and, to some extent, veteran MMO players in general) is that they think that just because an X MMO had a Y feature that they enjoyed, SWTOR should have it as well. Now add to that the fact that both SWG and SWTOR are based on Star Wars and it kind of makes sense why people compare the two.

But they shouldn't.

SWG was, for some people, a great game. It lived for 8 years and by the there weren't really that many people left playing it. It could've been because it was too innovative, or because the management was horrible or simply because WoW was "the cool new thing to do".

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't make sense from a business point of view to try to copy a game that didn't do as well as expected.

 

Now regarding SWG's death. Was SWTOR the only reason that SWG ended, imo NO. Was it the main reason YES. What I mean is that SWG after 8 years of running had a small player base that had endured all the hardships an MMO could possible have and yet had remained faithful to it. Also keep in mind that until the shutdown was announced SWG still had these numbers with subscription.

 

If SWG had been any other MMO without the SW logo, it would have continued to exist and proof of that are games like Vanguard which belong to the same company with probably even smaller player base, but still running. It was the contractual issues behind the SW licence along with SWG's low income production yet high risk for SWTOR that caused it to shut down. Business wise it was a good decision from LA part as now SWTOR even with F2P would have about two thirds of the population it has as most SWG players would have returned back to SWG as they usually did.

 

Again, no ones says it didn't have a player base. But as you said so yourself, it was a rather small player base. And yes, obviously, other MMOs could survive but the IP itself was a huge burden. And once LucasArts made a deal with Bioware/EA, it was over for SWG but NOT because of SWTOR. Because they built a Star Wars game, it lasted for some years and then it wasn't doing well. They were hoping that SWTOR would make them more money and SWG was an old and kind of "tired" game by the time it ended.

I know it had those numbers with subscriptions. The real question, however, is what were those numbers. And I think you'd agree that they weren't what LucasArts or Sony would consider "acceptable" for a game with a Star Wars story.

 

And what you're saying about SWG goes for SWTOR too. If it didn't have the SW logo it would have been a huge success because people wouldn't have been hyping it like it was the Second Coming. And if there's a fanbase that enjoys building something up only to tear it down to pieces after it's released, it's the Star Wars fanbase.

 

Again, I'm not trying to offend you or any other SWG fan, but I highly doubt they would have returned, as you say. People very rarely go back to something that is old, especially when there is a multitude of options in the market today, which wasn't true for many of the years that SWG was still alive and yet people didn't really ever "return" (SWG lost a lot of subscribers and never got back on its feet). Sure, some would return but, again, do you honestly think the number of people who'd return to a 10 year old game with a very small population would be enough to make a difference?

 

Now what you should be asking yourself is how lucrative SWTOR actually is? Investment wise I believe it is a huge flop. SWTOR within a year lost half of its population and although F2P did manage to stabilize things and even get a slight increase, it does not even come near to being lucrative as you say. SWG in its darkest hour (NGE) and one of the worst decisions in MMO history, managed to keep half its population with subscription. Can you imagine SWTOR without F2P?

 

If both games were still active you would have seen an even worse fate for SWTOR, while SWG would have died quietly eventually of old age.

 

What I honestly believe about SWTOR is that it wasn't (and might still not be) as lucrative as EA expected it to be, considering it's a Star Wars game, has a huge number of fans and there is no real alternative lore wise.

I do not, however, think it was not lucrative enough to keep it around. SWG had run its course by the time they decided it was time to pull the plug and, quite frankly, what is there to do for an 8 year old game that took a huge hit and never got back on its feet again? What does a company stand to gain from keeping it alive?

 

I also want to add one last thing:

 

Memory is a very, very tricky thing.

Once something is over and done, we remember the things we enjoyed as something exceptional (when most of them really weren't) and the really bad things as minor inconveniences (when they, also, really weren't just that). I realize that there are certain things that SWG had that SWTOR probably will never have but there is also the possibility that people remember the things they enjoyed about SWG but forget all of the things that made them unsubscribe (and then maybe come back, unsub again etc).

SWTOR is not SWG, nor will it ever be, for various reasons. And it shouldn't be. It already tried to copy WoW and people didn't like old ideas in a new setting. SWG "died" for various reasons - one of them might be SWTOR, but it definitely wasn't the only or even the most important reason: that was the fact that it just ran its course and didn't do as expected.

[WooliestWorm]

The story was the main innovation for swtor, to be honest as has been mentioned before it's likely that's about as much innovation as the general community will accept, everyone says they want these things but ultimately they'd probably come at the expense of other content that people consider necessary.

 

SWTOR has companions to help you in your quests and provide some more depth to the character stories. Very good idea, very badly implemented. In Baldur’s gate companion stories were so good that you could have restarted the game with different companion configurations just to see it play out. In SWTOR there is no real dilemma, no real choice you have to make and almost every choice you make (with few notable exceptions) leads to the same outcome. On top of that to make things worse you can even interrupt the dialogue if it does not go your way, until you are satisfied… So much for this system, after playing let us say a Sith warrior once, it is over for this general class.

 

I can't help but think you picked the worst possible class for your example here. Of every companion for every class Jaesa is the one that your decisions affect the most.

[AlexDougherty]

I have been meaning to write this review for some time now, but every time I found an excuse to postpone doing so. I believe this last announced PvP update is what finally pulled the trigger. I am sure many of you guys will disagree with what will be mentioned below but keep in mind this is my point of view. You are free to debate any point you like but please keep it civil.

 

Just to put things into perspective I have been a subscriber in this game from the beginning. I had been a subscriber to Star Wars Galaxies for more than 7 years and throughout all its phases. (Pre-CU, CU, NGE, post NGE, final days).

 

I am still surprised on how SWTOR with its huge budget came up so short… The lack of innovation is simply astonishing. I mean sure like most people out there I really enjoyed the storyline and the dialogues, but even that gets old very fast and other than this, what does SWTOR have to offer? Let us compare a few systems between SWTOR and SWG to see what I mean.

 

SWTOR was the first story driven MMO, this was an innovation, it has it's drawbacks but it was innovation.

 

For PvE, as mentioned earlier SWTOR looked amazing with its storyline, an element that bioware from the Baldur’s Gate days had mastered. SWG on the other hand being a first generation MMORPG, quest wise it was the typical fed-ex, gather, kill number of type of quests.

 

If one looks under the surface though, after leveling up one character in both games, he would realize that in SWTOR you mostly do the same lame quests just with voice over and cinematics. This is an amazing experience for the first time but it gets old VERY fast. Furthermore, how many times will it take before you are disgusted from that flashpoint or that operation no matter how well it is designed? Nightmare mode? Seriously? At least for me, there goes immersion…

 

On SWG on the other hand your leveling quest options, while of the same basic nature, were spread out over the galaxy in endless paths. On top of that what really made the difference was that SWG, at least in its latest form, had many end-game systems to greatly expand your experience. While its heroic quests (operation equivalents) were very simplistic and sub-par compared to SWTOR, you had other systems such as the Galactic Civil War, Player Cities, Creature Handler and quite a few others.

 

The point of the quests taking part on the same planet was to allow you to quest with your friends, if everybody is doing the same planet for the same levels, then you could quite easily hook up together and do some heroics and quests together. It was done this way for social reasons.

 

SWG had housing and player cities. You could choose you own house (which was player crafted) place it almost anywhere in the world you liked and use your imagination to decorate the interior with endless possibilities. On top of that you could use your guild, friend or simple real estate incentives to gather more people, form and run a city with taxes, shops, areas of specialization etc. The world changed everytime you logged in.

 

SWTOR has… a ship. The same ship for every sith in the galaxy, with zero customization options. That is all.

In SWG you could be a non combatant entertainer or crafter (in the older days there were many more professions which were later bottle necked into specific paths), be a combatant with one of the factions, remain neutral etc.

In SWTOR every sith warrior ends up being the emperor’s wrath, while every sith inquisitor a member of the dark council etc. The title loses its meaning. If it was a single player game like Baldur’s Gate than it would have worked perfectly, but on an MMO… I would personally prefer being one of the many captains in the imperial army rather than one of the army of emperor’s wrath clones.

 

Player housing doesn't work when you are doing all your missions on one planet, you have no reason to leave, but some customisation on the ships would be nice, especially the interiors, I'm surprised EA hasn't cottoned on to the fact people like to customise things especially living spaces.

 

SWTOR has companions to help you in your quests and provide some more depth to the character stories. Very good idea, very badly implemented. In Baldur’s gate companion stories were so good that you could have restarted the game with different companion configurations just to see it play out. In SWTOR there is no real dilemma, no real choice you have to make and almost every choice you make (with few notable exceptions) leads to the same outcome. On top of that to make things worse you can even interrupt the dialogue if it does not go your way, until you are satisfied… So much for this system, after playing let us say a Sith warrior once, it is over for this general class.

 

I kind of agree and disagree, yes some variation in companions would be nice, but those companions and their stories are well crafted (if sometimes annoying)

 

In SWG you had a few types of companions with different type of behavior and style. You could have droids that could assist you in combat, crafting, entertaining (it was a unique profession in SWG), which were player crafted and customizable. You could have factional troops to support you in combat which to be true were far worse than the SWTOR companions in doing so. Or you could have bio engineered creatures. The last option was a very robust system on its own, involving harvesting DNA from creatures around the galaxy and creating a pet to follow/help you customizable with its own traits and attributes, which could even be result of discovered mutations.

 

Last but not least is space. SWTOR has a starship on rails type of combat with linear progression and customization options, to compare to SWGs fully enabled 3d flight simulator that was introduced with Jump to Lightspeed and easily matched games like Tie fighter. In SWG you had pvp options and ships, depending on type that could be mounted by one, two or up to eight characters. JTL was a game on its own for many that played SWG, while SWTOR space combat, well to put it mildly, is a huge step backwards.

 

Slightly unfair, EA has no base code for space combat, they would have to write it from scratch, which for what is a single aspect of a larger game is unpractical. But that said, space combat is disappointing

 

PVP is yet another one of the points in SWTOR that was well polished but with a serious lack of vision. Character animations are good and combat is engaging in a warzone. Some warzones like Huttbal were a very pleasant surprise and one of the few innovations SWTOR has to offer. Furthermore the classes are relatively well balanced compared to other MMOs. Problem is that the classes were created with only this in mind and balanced as such. It is next to impossible to have a large scale war with these classes and that was proven amongst others in the Ilum fiasco, where you had melee classes that their only means of participation in the lag fest combat was to buff others in order to get indirect kill counts.

 

Yeah, the lag can be a right pain in the neck.

 

SWG combat suffered many upgrades/downgrades. Possibly the best incarnation in my opinion and closest to what SWTOR has was during the CU. While it never reached the combat reflectiveness of SWTOR, it had other merits which again when summed up created an equally interesting if not better experience. In SWG you were not bottlenecked in your choice of weapon, although class bonuses did favor a specific type usually. Furthermore weapon/ability range was up to 64m instead of 30-35m that SWTOR has. This gave a much Star Wars like combat, where the two factions would hold their lines. Even Jedi could hold a blaster and take some shots from range if required.

 

But the ultimate addition to SWG that totally changed the playfield compared to SWTOR was the integration of its robust space combat with the ground combat. In the final months of SWG, atmospheric flight was enabled and characters could take their custom made star fighters or multi passenger ships and support ground combat. You could in fact fly over and shoot at pvpers on the ground with your ships laser cannons while they could respond with RPGs.

 

To sum up I am still perplexed on how SWTOR can have such a lack of vision for the future despite all the different MMO experiences available and the past experience from SWG. Instead of trying to innovate and create, every single choice they make points out to cloning the decaying king of MMOs. While PvP arenas are not a bad option to have, it is one more step further away from having an immersive virtual world in the SW universe. In my humble opinion as a PvPer, FIX FIRST MEANINGFUL WORLD PVP (waiting since Ilum) and then add stuff like arenas. You already have arena like combat with the WZs, if I wanted this type of experience I would playing more COD and not an MMORPG. To those of you that forget, one of the Ms stands for massive, not 16 or 8 player!

 

Swtor has plenty of innovation, just not the innovation you were looking for, it's all very well saying they had dozens of MMO to act as inspiration, but if you copy something too closely you get sued, and you still have to write the code yourself. For a first attempt at an MMO Swtor is quite good, they would probably do all sorts of thing differently if they had to do it again, but then so would most companies that have produced MMO's.

 

I get you want SWG back, but it isn't going to happen, and this game is not going to change into SWG, for all sorts of legal reasons. If you want improvements post on the "suggestion box" page of "general discussion", Ea do read them, they might not do it, but they do read them.

Edited August 25, 2013 by AlexDougherty

[Osskask]

I played SWTOR, SW:G, WoW, among others, and have to agree with the OP, though I disagree with the method he used to state his points. No game will ever be SW:G again. Even the EMU is having trouble after years of trying. This game is a WoW clone, with a single player aspect added (space combat) and companions added to make WoW style crafting not suck as much.

 

Using SWG to explain why SWTOR lacks innovation is less persuasive than pointing out just how similar it is to WOW.

 

I seriously doubt we'll ever have another open world sandbox style game with the complexity of SW:G when it comes to player classes, crafting, housing, socialization, or adventuring. That style appeals to a VERY small audience, and no game developer is going to spend the money to develop a game that is probably going to lose money. You have to remember - SW:G had a HUGE learning curve, and many people left within a week because they were dropped in a city and had no idea how to get experience, craft, or hunt. Whenever a player "helper" would take the time and help, the new user would typically stick around. Unfortunately that relies on the player base, and more and more the users want to be spoon fed their content a'la WoW and SWTOR style.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Osskask

[Size-Matters-Not]

Here's hoping Chris Robert's Star Citizen bucks the trend, truly innovates and gives us what we want in a MMO game. Based on the crowd funding success, hopefully it's an indicator of a creative/development model shift from what investors think we want to what gamers really want.