Gyrovague Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 My biggest disappointment in SW:TOR is that lightsabers don't act like lightsabers. They act like 2x4's dipped in fluorescent paint. Same problem with blasters, too. I realize it might be slightly unbalanced if lightsabers just cut everything in half, but I finally came up with a solution. Yes, it's too late to re-write THIS game, but I'm just thinking out loud here... 1) Replace "Health" with "Defense". Defense includes both luck, armor, and skill, and your Defense pool goes up with your level. (That is, you get luckier and more skillful.) 2) When you are attacked, your Defense is consumed parrying, dodging, etc. It goes down because you are running out of luck and getting tired. (This is why Stamina increases Defense.) The animations also change from hits to dodges and parries. 3) When your Defense reaches zero, ya got nuthin' left. The next hit will kill you. 4) The final blow can now result in a charred, gaping tunnel through your torso, your head vaporizing, being cleaved in half vertically, etc. (ESRB be damned.) So basically the only differences, other than renaming resources, would be: 1) More dodge/parry animations 2) Dramatic final blows To me that would FEEL a lot more like using a lightsaber. So...what problems did I not anticipate (other than Tipper Gore) that would make it not work?
Suromir Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 you realize "hitpoints" and thus SWTOR's "health" is actually what you're saying defense would be... it's a misconception from DnD...higher hitpoints just means you're more experienced...roll with bunches/blows...etc...basically what you want Defense to be. now that said if they just took away all the cuts and holes left by a saber attack and only let it leave one when it was the "killing" blow...then the system works exactly as you are proposing here. Yah lightsabers being nothing more than glowing nerf-bats is off-putting...but it's a game... do you also forget that blasters tend to be one-shot kills too? but you take no issue with standing point blank and shooting someone in the face 100 times to kill them? ooooooookay then. nor do you take no issue with firing off rockets...sometimes point blank...yet somehow not hurting yourself when it's point blank..and it not killing them??? oooookay..just sabers huh?
Gyrovague Posted August 21, 2013 Author Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) you realize "hitpoints" and thus SWTOR's "health" is actually what you're saying defense would be... it's a misconception from DnD...higher hitpoints just means you're more experienced...roll with bunches/blows...etc...basically what you want Defense to be. now that said if they just took away all the cuts and holes left by a saber attack and only let it leave one when it was the "killing" blow...then the system works exactly as you are proposing here. Yah lightsabers being nothing more than glowing nerf-bats is off-putting...but it's a game... Um, yeah, hit points are the same thing. Wasn't counting on everybody knowing D&D terminology, and I've always hated the term anyway. do you also forget that blasters tend to be one-shot kills too? but you take no issue with standing point blank and shooting someone in the face 100 times to kill them? ooooooookay then. nor do you take no issue with firing off rockets...sometimes point blank...yet somehow not hurting yourself when it's point blank..and it not killing them??? oooookay..just sabers huh? Um, no. Sorry if I didn't spell it out in excruciating detail, but those would be general rules, not lightsaber specific. EDIT: The "vaporized head" was intended to be a blaster reference, btw. But I realize it's easier to be sarcastic and superior than to simply ask questions and engage constructively. "Did you intend for the rules to also apply to blasters and other types of damage?" "Yes." "Cool." Edited August 21, 2013 by Gyrovague
Glumish Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 So.. all you want is the same exact thing we have now, except that characters get mutilated when they die? And I know you aren't asking for this, the idea that one shotting / one hitting players would be cool in a MMO is a bad one, this isn't Call of Duty and to be honest one shot kills aren't skillful and require no combat tactics.
Gyrovague Posted August 21, 2013 Author Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) So.. all you want is the same exact thing we have now, except that characters get mutilated when they die? Almost. The only other change would be different animations on all the hits leading up to it. That is, dodging/parrying instead of taking the hits. EDIT: That is, I at least want the illusion that I'm missing my target, until I cut him in half (or vaporize him or whatever) on the final blow. Isn't that exactly what happens in the movies? And I know you aren't asking for this, the idea that one shotting / one hitting players would be cool in a MMO is a bad one, this isn't Call of Duty and to be honest one shot kills aren't skillful and require no combat tactics. I mostly agree with you, but I played some semi-competitive Ghost Recon for a while where one shot kills were the norm. It was all about teamwork and tactics to prevent that from happening. It was a cool game. Edited August 21, 2013 by Gyrovague
Gyrovague Posted August 21, 2013 Author Posted August 21, 2013 ^ /5char I'm old and not cool. Could somebody translate for me?
Glumish Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Almost. The only other change would be different animations on all the hits leading up to it. That is, dodging/parrying instead of taking the hits. EDIT: That is, I at least want the illusion that I'm missing my target, until I cut him in half (or vaporize him or whatever) on the final blow. Isn't that exactly what happens in the movies? Well stormtroopers are known for their great aim, it'd be hard to imagine them missing. I mostly agree with you, but I played some semi-competitive Ghost Recon for a while where one shot kills were the norm. It was all about teamwork and tactics to prevent that from happening. It was a cool game. So what do healers and melee dps / tanks do then? That's why it doesn't work in a MMORPG, it'd just be ranged people running around and pressing their abilities to one shot people. I'm old and not cool. Could somebody translate for me? /5char and /10char are often used on forums to make a short post that is under the character requirement. Edited August 21, 2013 by Glumish
Gyrovague Posted August 21, 2013 Author Posted August 21, 2013 So what do healers and melee dps / tanks do then? That's why it doesn't work in a MMORPG, it'd just be ranged people running around and pressing their abilities to one shot people. I'm not saying you could just drop it into an existing MMO. But, damn, I'd love to see somebody have the balls to re-think the standard MMO model: - Healer/Tank/DPS triumvirate - A bunch of gear slots that somehow increase your strength and intelligence - Race for max level, then accumulate gear - Bind lots of buttons to keys, then use highly unrealistic attacks ("When I hit you with a sword THIS WAY it bleeds!") in the optimal sequence etc. Instead it feels like all the MMOs are just reskinned clones of each other.
Jrea Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) They had a great ret-com for this in KOTOR, One of the first conversations the game was about how popular personal energy shields were becoming, and how they could even take a couple of hits from lightsabers. You have to remember though, that EA pretty much demanded a WOW clone from Bioware, including how the combat worked. They have been starting to move away from this, the new FP's don't need tanks or healers. Edited August 21, 2013 by Jrea
GratuaCuun Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 You do realize that if this game was 'more like the movies' the Jedi class would be ALL anyone would play, the Bounty Hunter would have one level that involves dying in some comical way and the Smuggler quest would be nothing but flirting with stuck-up princesses Your idea of changing 'health' to 'defense' wouldn't really solve the problem - if you want Lightsabers to be 'auto-kill' sticks then they'd still destroy the 'defense' with one blow... This is a different era of Star Wars, every soldier, droid, warrior, sith, jedi and even some senators in this era have cortosis and phrik (lightsaber resistant material) woven into their armor and weapons... materials and ores that had been heavily exploited by the time of the movies and were almost completely gone (one of the reasons new strikes in the unknown regions and wild space were so heavily fought over) thus lightsabers being 'one-hit-wonders'
DarthSabreth Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 here are my opinions I wish they had 1. cross server ques. 2. off the rails space pvp, that mimicked tie fighter / xwing fighter in some way. 3. not removed ranked 8v8 pvp in 2.4 for skilled pvers that hate mind numbing duels and like objective based pvp. 4. companion customization like the one we can do for ourselves, hairstyle, body type, makeup ect. 5. weekly companion quests. 6. queable open world pvp like WOWs wintersgrasp.
Gyrovague Posted August 21, 2013 Author Posted August 21, 2013 (edited) Not if, as I said in the original post, "defenses" included a lot of dodging and parrying. Ok, maybe not TOTALLY realistic that you can keep ducking to avoid blaster shots at point blank, but at least as realistic as getting hit repeatedly at short range without dying... Edited August 21, 2013 by Gyrovague
CosmicKat Posted August 21, 2013 Posted August 21, 2013 RPG's have attempted something like this since DnD days. Separating your ability to avoid being hit (defence) with your ability to absorb the hits (armor). It has upsides and downsides. The upside is that it allows for more variety and flexibility in character classes and customizing (you can make a fast, light, fighter or a slow, tank-ish fighter). The downside is that it can make it unnecessarily convoluted as you are really just breaking one thing into two. Since Bioware has reduced stat importance down to nearly a single stat (your prime ability), I don't see much hope of them ever expanding on this core RPG element. The reason high fantasy is so popular in the RPG genre is because modern and up ranged combat does not work conceptually in a game. Everyone knows if you get shot, you will get badly hurt/killed but because we have no real conception of melee combat, it's much easier to suspend disbelief that people can get "minor" wounds from swords, axes, arrows, etc. Also, any melee combat in a world with modern firearms or better is completely useless. "Bringing a knife to a gunfight" as it were. To make them work in a game, the ranged combat gets nerfed to the point of total silliness.
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