Double Stun lock at Pylon. Doing something wrong?

[Kemby]

I was just in a PvP (Hypergate) and was guarding the pylon alone.

 

Got stunned by a stealther who started capping so had to release myself. He instantly stun locked me again and there was nothing I could do! He Capped. *** is that about? Why do some classes have two stuns etc and Vanguards only have one.

 

Was I doing something wrong? As that seems to be a pretty poor flaw to be able to just stun twice and cap so easily.

[EFSoupy]

There may have been two of them. One is on mezzes, the other caps. If you break mez, mez again and cap.

[Gren-Aluren]

I assume you must not be in 50+ PvP. Vanguard is the only class that actually can stop a cap while stunned with his Shoulder Cannon. If the team has more then one stealther you need at least two people guarding a pylon, always. When you guard a pylon you need to stay far enough back that you can still stop a cap but are too far for them to both sap you, run to the pylon and cap it before you wake up.

 

Scoundrels can sap you and then Flash Bang you. Shadows can sap you and use their channeled mez. Either class can vanish and reuse sap on you, also. So standing anywhere near pylon against these classes is a very bad idea.

 

There are times where I tricked multiple opponents into wasting their CC breaker and AoE mezzed them all for a cap. Even if you outnumber a Scoundrel don't clump together next to a pylon.

 

I'm pretty sure the map was intentionally designed with mezzes in mind with it's 6 second capture time.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[Kemby]

Yes, Not level 50 yet. Thanks. I'll have to wait for shoulder cannon

[DarthBloodloss]

Pylon guarding rules:

 

One Stealther or Two Non-Stealthers at all times. (No need for 2 people if one is a stealther)

 

1) Enemy walks up and uses out-of-combat CC on you

2) Enemy starts to cap

3) You break it, and they insta-CC you again with Flash-Bang

4) Enemy starts to cap

 

This is countered by being stealthed to take away step 1, and by standing 30m away so it takes them 2+ seconds to move from you to the pylon. Getting them so waste 2 seconds is the magic number. The CC is 8sec, the cap is 6s so you need to push the required cap time to over 8 seconds by making them move farther.

Edited August 20, 2013 by DarthBloodloss

[Ghost_Spectre]

Was I doing something wrong?

 

Nothing. Welcome to Stun Wars. You were screwed any way you look at it. BW developers think it is cool to have 8 billion stuns, ccs, slows, roots, hindering, and whatever else they can dream of from the dictionary to cause a player to lose complete control of their toon. All you can do is call it out, hope someone will come, then die while watching them cap when no one shows up.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Ghost_Spectre

[General_Aldo]

Got stunned by a stealther who started capping so had to release myself. He instantly stun locked me again and there was nothing I could do!

 

Tip:

 

 

Don't get yourself in that position and don't stand next to node

 

[Wraiven]

Tip:

 

 

Don't get yourself in that position and don't stand next to node

 

Tip...

 

 

There is not a damn thing you can do about it. I will stun you, start to cap (thing is, I have no intention of capping at this point, I'm just waiting for you to break your stun) soon as you break your stun, I hit you with the real deal. Then I finish capping...not a single thing you can do about it but stand there and watch me cap.

 

 

Thanks for your time.

[LaVall]

Poorly guarded nodes are supposed to be stolen. Your team left it poorly guarded. There's not a lot you could have done pre-level 51. Even if you stand 30 meters away an assassin/shadow can pull you and their whirlwind has a 30 meter range.

[Pyrinoos]

Tip...

 

 

There is not a damn thing you can do about it. I will stun you, start to cap (thing is, I have no intention of capping at this point, I'm just waiting for you to break your stun) soon as you break your stun, I hit you with the real deal. Then I finish capping...not a single thing you can do about it but stand there and watch me cap.

 

 

Thanks for your time.

 

If he's a vanguard that shouldn't work with shoulder cannon.

 

If not, people still need to learn not to stand on top of the node. Stand far enough away that the op has to sap and roll for over 2 seconds to get to the node, at which point you can wait out the stun and hit them before they finish. Now, an assassin is a different story with phase walk, but after you break the first their second stun has to channel (interrupt it) or they have to restealth to sap you (again get away from the node and their phase walk is down so they have to run to the node.)

 

If there are 2 stealthers, well its 2v1 they should get the node.

[Shakhaar]

As mentioned above, it is not strategic to stand close to the node. Ultimately when it comes to node guarding and CC, you want every second you can get. Standing further away from the node will mean that the enemy stealther has to Sleep Dart/Mind Trap you and then run to the node, during which they lose several seconds - ideally you should come out of the CC before they cap and interrupt them, forcing them to re-CC you, use CS or try to kill you.

 

The moment you know that someone is trying to ninja, even if you suspect it to be just one stealther, you definitely should ask for support in chat. "There arent anymore stealthers here because I dont see them, so not going to call" is bad logic. Even in a 1v1 you are better safe than sorry.

[DarthBloodloss]

But best way to avoid this is have a single stealth guard. There is no risk vs a single ninja as long as you have a stealther as the guard.

[Brunner_Venda]

Here's what you do the second you get sapped.

 

1. You should be a couple of seconds walk from the node.

 

2. Call ninja inc, immediately. Don't wait. Don't try to be a hero. Stealthers are some of the best 1v1 specs in the game. I know stealthers that make top DPS classes cry in duels.

 

3. Hit shoulder cannon, hit him with your missile to break cap. It takes 1-2 secs to load up and fire the first rocket. You only need one.

 

4. You should be free now, hit the stealther with DOT's and fight him off until help arrives. If you get stunned again, you should have at least three more rockets. Repeat.

 

Use the stun break only in case of dire emergencies (i.e. two stealthers, but then you're cooked regardless). Mostly, you should never need it.

 

VG's and PT's suck for ninja cappers, especially tanks - because they have huge health pools and shield chance. Learn to use the shoulder rockets and pop some defensive CD 's.

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Nothing. Welcome to Stun Wars. You were screwed any way you look at it. BW developers think it is cool to have 8 billion stuns, ccs, slows, roots, hindering, and whatever else they can dream of from the dictionary to cause a player to lose complete control of their toon. All you can do is call it out, hope someone will come, then die while watching them cap when no one shows up.

 

While I'm not necessarily a fan of every stun that's in game, and I also think the resolve bar needs reworking... there is nothing wrong with what the OP is describing (unless you want a game with zero stuns and to lose that strategic element altogether). And before you start saying that's a good thing, Warzones have objectives and it's a much better thing that there are multiple strategies for attacking and holding them. The more you take away from the strategic choices players make, the more you get to just button mashing at opposing teams and having strict deathmatch maps.

 

I'd rather keep some of the stuns and the resolve bar, albeit with some tweaks.

[ekimmak]

Poorly guarded nodes are supposed to be stolen. Your team left it poorly guarded. There's not a lot you could have done pre-level 51. Even if you stand 30 meters away an assassin/shadow can pull you and their whirlwind has a 30 meter range.

 

Pull also generates resolve. So unless you're dealing with a twin stealth takeover, where the assassin pulls, and does everything they can to delay finishing with a stun while the operative caps, I find it very difficult to believe they could pull it off.

[Ghost_Spectre]

While I'm not necessarily a fan of every stun that's in game, and I also think the resolve bar needs reworking... there is nothing wrong with what the OP is describing (unless you want a game with zero stuns and to lose that strategic element altogether). And before you start saying that's a good thing, Warzones have objectives and it's a much better thing that there are multiple strategies for attacking and holding them. The more you take away from the strategic choices players make, the more you get to just button mashing at opposing teams and having strict deathmatch maps.

 

I'd rather keep some of the stuns and the resolve bar, albeit with some tweaks.

 

Personally, I think there should be half as many of the control effects OR whenever you use your CC breaker, there should be a 10 second immunity to any control effects of any type if a resolve bar is not filled. I believe that would make using stuns & CCs more of a strategic and tactical importance and reduce the carefree way they are being used.

 

I agree the resolve system needs reworking. It should return back to what it was prior to 1.4. Then of course, the decay time of resolve should be at least 15 seconds and not start to decay until one is in combat and not when you're sitting in respawn watching it go away. Just my .02¢

[JP_Legatus]

I was just in a PvP (Hypergate) and was guarding the pylon alone.

 

Got stunned by a stealther who started capping so had to release myself. He instantly stun locked me again and there was nothing I could do! He Capped. *** is that about? Why do some classes have two stuns etc and Vanguards only have one.

 

Was I doing something wrong? As that seems to be a pretty poor flaw to be able to just stun twice and cap so easily.

 

The thing you did wrong was guard the pylon. As a class with no method of preventing a double sap cap, (in this case by being low level and not having shoulder cannon yet) you have no reason to be there as there is nothing you can do to stop me from taking your pylon, 100% of the time. You are better off leaving your pylon unguarded because at least then there's the possibility of someone on your team with that capability seeing the pylon and going to guard it.

 

The same applies to being a juggernaut or a merc, if you're at the pylon guarding, you're doing it wrong. Once you get shoulder cannon though, you become a decent nodeguard, but be aware of your 10m range. I've gotten plenty of nodes from vanguards who stand off to the side enough for me to sap and be 10.1m away while capping.

Edited August 21, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Evolixe]

Leave objective guarding to stealthers. Anything without stealth is vulnerable to double sap cap.

 

The only class that is absolutely immume to this is Sage/Scorc and only if they have their 3 minute cooldown up.

 

Even vanguards with shoulder cannons can be ninja'd. It just requires you to be a darkness assassin to do so.

 

(or a dumb vanguard that isnt standing in the middle of the pylon)

[JP_Legatus]

Leave objective guarding to stealthers. Anything without stealth is vulnerable to double sap cap.

 

The only class that is absolutely immume to this is Sage/Scorc and only if they have their 3 minute cooldown up.

 

Even vanguards with shoulder cannons can be ninja'd. It just requires you to be a darkness assassin to do so.

 

(or a dumb vanguard that isnt standing in the middle of the pylon)

 

Does pull/overload and 1 sap not fill the resolve? I haven't ever tried it since the only VG guards I ran into were the 10.1m guys but I was curious about this. I know in huttball using a pull and a hard stun on somebody fills resolve every time that I can remember, but then people are always filling ball carrier resolve.

Course then there's the guys that you just start fighting them and they will move off the node, doing your job for you.

Edited August 21, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Evolixe]

Yeah it does. You need to get rid of that breaker first.

[JP_Legatus]

Yeah it does. You need to get rid of that breaker first.

 

Then IDK how you ninja cap a competent VG. Bads sure, but it will go like this:

1. Sap, cap - vg rockets, attempt immediately failed

2. Pull, sap, cap - full resolve with breaker still available, attempt immediately failed

 

So yeah idk how you ninja cap a competent vanguard. In either case you've already lost the chance to immediately cap in the first 16/12s and help should be arriving with time to spare. I don't think I'd count on the resolve bar running out before help arrives (for #2), but even if it does take them that long to respond the VG can simply walk back to the center of the pylon or LOS around a corner since you've already used your phase walk and cloak. They've got interrupts and stuns a plenty for the ww and hydraulic overrides for any slow/root attempts. VG too stronk at guarding.

Edited August 21, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Zunayson]

Tip...

 

 

There is not a damn thing you can do about it. I will stun you, start to cap (thing is, I have no intention of capping at this point, I'm just waiting for you to break your stun) soon as you break your stun, I hit you with the real deal. Then I finish capping...not a single thing you can do about it but stand there and watch me cap.

 

 

Thanks for your time.

 

Let's say you're a retard, and you decided to stand next to the pylon (at this point you could already have done something about it).

 

So you get sapped. Immediately, he starts to cap. At this point, yell for HALP in ops and right before he caps break and attack.

 

Protection against an assassin's whirlwind:

• It has a 30m range, so don't bother kiting
  
• It has a 1.5-2s cast time depending on spec. Combine alternating LoS, interrupts, and stuns to stall forevar.
  

 

Protection against an operative's flashbang:

• Only 10m range, so use any knockback or escape at your disposal, and kite. It's okay to leave the pylon at this point, since if he caps, you just need to get within range to interrupt, then retreat back to 10+ range.
  

• Mercs have a KB to get out of range, plus HO to create more gap, and Net to deny roll for the operative to reclose the gap.
  
• PTs have shoulder cannon and should not have to worry about this entire post.
  
• Snipers have CC immunity, plus roll to roll away to create a gap, and, if timed correctly, completely resist flashbang altogether. Not to mention stealth detection to prevent the intial sap.
  
• Operatives have stealth, so they can solo.
  
• Sorc bubble provides a second CCbreaker. At this point between the two, you're at full resolve, and he's SoL. KB and speed to create the gap for flashbang, so you don't have to break with barrier to begin with.
  
• Assassin stealth should be able to solo guard.
  
• Maras have camo to create gap to LoS to stall.
  
• Juggs have Push to create gap to kite away flashbang.
  

 

 

 

 

sorry, looks like you're bad, and any class has a multitude of tools to deal with these guys.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Zunayson

[JP_Legatus]

Let's say you're a retard, and you decided to stand next to the pylon (at this point you could already have done something about it).

 

So you get sapped. Immediately, he starts to cap. At this point, yell for HALP in ops and right before he caps break and attack.

 

Protection against an assassin's whirlwind:

• It has a 30m range, so don't bother kiting
  
• It has a 1.5-2s cast time depending on spec. Combine alternating LoS, interrupts, and stuns to stall forevar.
  

 

Protection against an operative's flashbang:

• Only 10m range, so use any knockback or escape at your disposal, and kite. It's okay to leave the pylon at this point, since if he caps, you just need to get within range to interrupt, then retreat back to 10+ range.
  

• Mercs have a KB to get out of range, plus HO to create more gap, and Net to deny roll for the operative to reclose the gap.
  
• PTs have shoulder cannon and should not have to worry about this entire post.
  
• Snipers have CC immunity, plus roll to roll away to create a gap, and, if timed correctly, completely resist flashbang altogether. Not to mention stealth detection to prevent the intial sap.
  
• Operatives have stealth, so they can solo.
  
• Sorc bubble provides a second CCbreaker. At this point between the two, you're at full resolve, and he's SoL. KB and speed to create the gap for flashbang, so you don't have to break with barrier to begin with.
  
• Assassin stealth should be able to solo guard.
  
• Maras have camo to create gap to LoS to stall.
  
• Juggs have Push to create gap to kite away flashbang.
  

 

 

 

 

sorry, looks like you're bad, and any class has a multitude of tools to deal with these guys.

 

There aren't many things that prevent a combat stealth followed by a 2nd sap tho for many classes, although you did pretty much list the tools you'd use to attempt to delay it so it's not impossible, just very difficult for classes like jugg merc and depending on the cooldowns some of the other classes.

 

Thing is though, with phase walk and WW available to me the other guy standing off the node doesn't even give him much protection against sap capping. I often use WW out of stealth first because the guards aren't expecting it, then I still have combat stealth/sap/phase walk for the real attempt. If there were 2 of us it just makes the guard being off the node even worse for him. Half the stuff you mentioned is easily countered with shroud or combat stealth.

 

Bottom line there is no guaranteed best strat for node guarding, there is a way to sap cap damn near everyone especially with 2 stealthers. In fact the only thing that's a sure 12s stop is sorc with the bubble as a 2nd breaker. You prepare for the expected scenarios but there's always something that can screw you, that's why having a good node guard or guard class is so important. Even ops and sins can be sap capped by 2 stealthers or 1 really good one, even if they do everything right.

 

BUT yes you did list the majority of the good methods for these classes to attempt to delay a cap, so it is theoretically POSSIBLE for anyone to guard a node.

Edited August 21, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Vaerah]

Glad Arenas are coming.

 

Staying away of pylon is a popular sap cap remedy yet it franky sucks.

The same class (shadow / sin) that instead of having fun must stand there for the whole match, is also supposed to risk to not even get the defense ticks for the best selfless team play. Again and again, match after match except Huttball where shadow / sin are not even an asset ("lol respec kinetic for pull-bot or ****"). Worst of the gameplay and certainly not the reason why a player rolls a "rogue".

[Carter_Mathis]

Nothing. Welcome to Stun Wars. You were screwed any way you look at it. BW developers think it is cool to have 8 billion stuns, ccs, slows, roots, hindering, and whatever else they can dream of from the dictionary to cause a player to lose complete control of their toon. All you can do is call it out, hope someone will come, then die while watching them cap when no one shows up.

 

No, he got flashbanged, that is his mistake. He stood close enough to the node as a class with a 30m white attack to get cc'd and capped on, then cc'd again and capped on. If he stood further away from the node, he could have put himself in a position where being capped on by 1 person was impossible.