Arenas - 2.4

[mattycutts]

Hey fellow snipers,

 

Not sure how many do testing on test server of new content but please try to have a look not just to get sneak looks at new content but to check on class balence for new content.

 

I personally found two of 3 specs of a sniper to be useless in arenas if you want to match the big dps'ers,

 

Lethality / Engineering trees i found were far less effective in arenas compared to markman spec.

 

Anyone else been testing snipers?

 

I found groups didnt want you as a main dps unless u had marksman spec.

[Ashuranrx]

You are right about engineering. Engineer is not very effective against top teams. Engineering's weakness is that the burst comes from long cooldowns. Good players recognize the graphic and sound effects of Explosive Probes, then the opposing team counters this burst setup with pre-load healing, taunts and guards, or CC, or all of the above. If the opposing team has a Sniper with smoke canister, a good team knows to how to exploit that 6s of no-cover duration with a hard switch and kill the Engineer fast.

 

Lethality got a similar probloem against top teams too. Good players recognize the graphics and sound effects of the DoT abilities and anitcipate Cull, then counter Cull with pre-load healing, taunts and guards, or CC, or all of the above. Also Lethality sucks at hard switching with burst.

 

Marksman is definitely the spec to go for competing against top contenders. Top players don't die easily and know how to swap guard and healing and focus target quickly. Our team had to do the same to compete. Hard-switching burst is needed to compete against top teams and MM is the spec to go for that.

 

I used to think that LoS is a problem for MM. But it really is not bad. The trick is to coordinate with the team and hard switch target with burst instead of running after the original target. Hard switching target is much more important strategy in arenas.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Ashuranrx

[paowee]

What will you guys do when the engineer or saboteur camps a wall or pillar? >_<

[NoTomorrow]

MM will be the go to spec for Arenas. Sorry engineering lovers, but on such a short scale battles engineering will just not cut it. You need to have constant burst available at all times. And you need to handle smash spec reliably, which only MM can do currently. And you need the best possible execute which only MM will give you: Takedown + FT.

 

You will not be able to take advantage of the engineering assests: grenades, orbital strike, plasma probe. All this will not cut it. On the other hand, the mega rootsnare from MM legshot will be a huge asset for you. You will not be in a position to hold some objectives like you are in normal PvP where Engineering is useful at spamming all these goodies on the doors and cap nodes. You need to kill stuff.

 

And MM is always an asset against melee which will always be present in arenas.

[Ashuranrx]

What will you guys do when the engineer or saboteur camps a wall or pillar? >_<

 

I tried that tactic already, it doesn't work in a team strategy. The opposing Jug just Force Push a teammate in the opposite direction or to a lower elevation, and then hard switch on that teammate who got separate and focus on him down fast. Then the team lost one member and it goes down hill from there. The engineer camping at a wall can't do anything for the teammate but to watch him die. And there is always at least 1 Jug in the opposing team if it is a top team, whether he is a tank or a smasher.

 

An effective hard switch strategy I came across often is AoE Mez, Force Push a target to separate him, and then hard switch on him to focus him down before the teammate can help him. In top competing arenas, it all comes down to who can hard switch faster and smarter. The tank needs to hard switch guard, the healer needs to hard switch healing, and the DPS need to hard switch focus target. The team that can't keep up with the hard switching loses.

 

So any spec that DoTs, like Lethality, or with long AoEs, like Engineer, is bad because these things break Mez, which screws up the hard switching strategy. The top team set right now is:

 

Jug tank: 2 hard stuns, 1 AoE Mez, Force Push to separate hard switch target, armor reduction, Friendly Leap to hard switch guard. This is the best Arena tank right now, the other 2 tanks have no contest.

 

Rage Jug or Marauder: 1 AoE Mez, High burst damage, good survivability for DPS. Jugs got Force Push to help with separation and hard switch, Marauder got stealth to escape being hard switch on.

 

MM Sniper: 1 hard stun, 1 AoE Mez, Short cooldown heal debuff and armor debuff, which is excellent for hard switching. High consistent burst, which is good for hard switching targets. Good defense against Smasher's burst with Entrench and other CC.

 

Op healer or Merc healer: Op healer got 1 hard stun, 1 AoE Mez, Easiest healer to play, never runs out of energy for healing. Got Dodge and Vanish, which are good for escaping being hard switch and focus upon. Merc healer can work too, because it got AoE knock back and single target Mez, and is tanky. Merc healer needs more team work and team awareness to work though. Sorc healer is too squishy and is a liability.

 

These are the top arena specs right now. Notice anything in common from them? AoE Mez, Stuns, Armor debuff and heal debuff, knock backs. For top arena teams, everything comes down to coordinating CC, separating 1 target, and hard switch focus that target down. Whoever executes this strategy better wins, whoever screws up the CC loses.

 

For casual and solo ques, any spec and class can still compete to a moderate level. But for top competition, these classes and specs work the best.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Ashuranrx

[paowee]

Have you guys been seeing more Vengance or Smash juggs? I can imagine there will be a lot of smash but Vengeance with their CC immunity after charge can be a big hassle/annoyance.

[AngelFluttershy]

The way you describe arenas Ash makes them sound like boring clone parties where everyone is really hard for sadistic reasons.

 

To stay on-topic, I already foresaw Engineering taking a back seat for arenas. They are great for objective based games, but in pure deathmatch they have far too many limiting factors. However, I thought Lethality would be able to keep up somewhat. I know they can't switch like Marksmanship can, but they still can keep pressure on the group to keep healers busy, the slow on Corrosive Grenade is pretty darn handy, and they have the reduced CD on Cover Pulse to help keep melee at bay or spread out mezzed players (no damage AOE knockbacks are very handy). I know Operative/Scoundrel healers would give them the work around with all the cleanses and Surgical Probe spamming, but not every team will have an Op healer (just most).

 

Anyone run Lethality extensively on the PTS and find that it just won't cut it like Engineering, or is there hope for it yet?

[Svii]

I only ran a few matches solo queue as Lethality (I'm not very good in this spec), against an unorganized group it worked fine, great even. Lethality is not lacking in burst, you can for example delay Takedown until just before your second Cull. Burst might look like WB -> EP -> TD -> Cull -> TD. IF the target is close to 30% the Cull/DoTs are extremely deadly. A good team can probably pull it off, but smashers are a pain in any spec outside MM.

 

I switched back to MM for the other matches, not only because of fast switching but also superior survivability, mobility and Diversion against other Snipers, also great for protecting during a hard switch.

[mattycutts]

i thought same about lethality being great for arenas but since every group more or less has a opperative the dots are gone as quick as i get to weakening blast and since most groups are having a opperative its making lethality weak unless your playing a full pug type game, against decent teams the lethality spec is being shut down in 2 seconds.

 

Engineering is usless

 

Marksman works alright,

 

Problem is once u sign up to any pvp now you cant swap any spec at all once u click the queue up button which is stupid decission.

 

most snipers ive run into on test server all say similar things and no one wants us for there groups lol i have to admit i dont blame them at min coz we are dead very quick in arenas. why take a glass cannon like a sniper when u can just take another smash monkey.

 

I love the arenas but really cant see many organised groups wanting a sniper.

Edited August 22, 2013 by mattycutts

[Ashuranrx]

Snipers do great with MM. But you can't expect it to work in a team with random guys on PTS. You got to be on voice comm with friends to coordinate hard switching and CC. No voice comm and coordination can lead to teammates breaking CC and the Sniper get shut down without support.

 

Any class and spec can do well on solo que or regular arenas, because there is little to no coordination. Everyone just plays by their skill level and instincts. The team setup I talked about is for top ranked arena competition. If you are a casual PvPer and don't care about ranked arenas, then don't worry about it. Any spec can do fine in casual PvP.

 

I came across a hard counter to 1 jug tank, 2 smashers, and 1 op healer team yesterday: 3 tactics vanguard, with 1 in tank stance and spec riot gas, and 1 scoundrel healer. 3 tactics vanguard have heavy armor, 30% aoe damage reduction, and 3 taunts and 3 AoE taunts. With good timing, the Vanguards can drop the smashers' damage by more than half, which made it very easy for their healer to keep them up. Then the Vanguards's strategy is to pull the enemy team together, trap them in riot gas, and aoe them all down simultaneously. Each Vanguard has 1 hard stun and 1 aoe stun, so trapping them in riot gas is easy when coordinated well.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Ashuranrx

[ZipZep]

Been playing both MM and Engineer in grouped arenas, and I can see both of them working. MM has the edge for sure, but even though engineer lacks burst on demand, its not impossible just requires a little more patience with explosive probe.

 

The arena maps are kinda tailor made for wall banging also

 

But ye, I agree with above posters that MM snipers are gonna have an easier time consistantly helping their team burst down targets. (increased criticals on takedown is just massive in arena's).

 

Havent tried Lethality or hybrids.

[CJNJ]

Ya I tried engineering and MM in solo arenas, with very diff results.

 

Engi has no way to keep people in its AOEs. PP is easily heal able damage and rather simple to avoid, and with a 50% snare it's nothing to really fret about. The big hitter OS I find has very little use because of how easily noticeable it is coupled with no real way to keep people in it without risking your group to get smashed down in the process. Sure we got that 50% snare but from the start of the cast its still 6 sec till OS will actually do anything. Only thing in engi with a short CD is SoS, which as nice as ours is it isn't gamechanging by itself. Also I didn't get to roll anyone, and I'm still trying to kick the short roll habit

 

MM was much better tho, quick target swaps and the extra CD with diversion was nice! The way the spec just picks up where it left off works really well, and judging from the heavy AOE comps also gets a nice boon from hunker down. This spec probably has a better time trapping a guys in OS then engi does if ya try to use it, which is kinda sad tbh from a predominantly engi sniper's perspective.

 

Next time I'm on pts I'm going to try out lethality. I know it will suck for CCing targets and swapping but it's always going to be an awesome tank-killer spec to me

 

We should also move a thread like this over to pts, maybe get some more input from others

Edited August 23, 2013 by CJNJ

[BaineOs]

Lets face it, arena's are for those idiots that don't know how to play. By that I mean those people that just want to kill kill kill and be damned about anything else.

 

pfft sorry but I find that pathetic. Not everyone likes deathmatching, it's boring as hell and gets tiresome very quickly. They better have a separate queue for arena's to normal warzones because I don't want anything to do with them.

 

If arena's is where this game is headed then pvp will just die a death very quickly. Sure you'll get people play them but every player with a brain will have quit the game.

[NoTomorrow]

Arena metagame will constantly change. Composition X will counter composition Y. Just have a look at arenas now. Multiple vanguard teams are punishing those that refuse to take a range DPS class with them. Don't try to convince them about your MM sniper being useful. Let the guys eat their fair share of PvP losses before they will consider mixing up their group.

[mattycutts]

Lets face it, arena's are for those idiots that don't know how to play. By that I mean those people that just want to kill kill kill and be damned about anything else.

 

pfft sorry but I find that pathetic. Not everyone likes deathmatching, it's boring as hell and gets tiresome very quickly. They better have a separate queue for arena's to normal warzones because I don't want anything to do with them.

 

If arena's is where this game is headed then pvp will just die a death very quickly. Sure you'll get people play them but every player with a brain will have quit the game.

 

I just see the arenas as another option not where the pvp is heading, yeah first few weeks most will be trying the arenas but it will settle down. And yes u can queue as a solo normal, solo ranked, if u go solo rank youll only get arenas, if u go solo normal queue youll get anything from a normal warzone to arenas. Personally i prefer more objective based pvp over team deathmatch and wish they would had more regular warzone maps even if it was reskins of current ones.

 

Those of you trying lethality on pts let us know your thoughts, persoanlly i think lethality is getting shut down too quick with most groups having a opperative i find my dots cleansed b4 i even get to weakening blass/cull etc.

[Ashuranrx]

Those of you trying lethality on pts let us know your thoughts, persoanlly i think lethality is getting shut down too quick with most groups having a opperative i find my dots cleansed b4 i even get to weakening blass/cull etc.

 

Experienced players recognize the graphics and sound effects of the DoT setup, and they get ready to interrupt it with knockback, stun, or defensive cooldowns, or pop quickly out of LOS and pop back out. Lethality can still do well with casual and PUG arenas, but defintely has no place in top arena competition.

[mattycutts]

Experienced players recognize the graphics and sound effects of the DoT setup, and they get ready to interrupt it with knockback, stun, or defensive cooldowns, or pop quickly out of LOS and pop back out. Lethality can still do well with casual and PUG arenas, but defintely has no place in top arena competition.

 

yeah i thought this was case not just me then.

 

Basically for proper arena matches by this i mean competitive teams unless ya MM you wouldnt be wanted.

 

Great work bioware with no class changes you effectively nerfed two skill trees lol

 

had 3 games other day, two with pug, one with a group, the pug ones lethality worked a treat, for the group one i was shut down all time and dps no where.

[mattycutts]

as a MM sniper - i came across leth and eng snipers, they die really quick.

 

also as mm the teams with couple of smash specs with opperative healing you die fast also.

 

thing i loved bout sniper was ALL 3 specs were fairly balenced and fun to play and when ever i got bored would just swap to another one but now for arenas MM seems only option for competitive teams if they want a sniper that is.

[ZipZep]

Played a little lethality last night in Arenas.

Setup was, Madnes Assassins (dps), Lethality Sniper (dps), PT (tank) and OP heals. (We wanted to try it!)

 

We didnt run into any of the strong guilds during our time, but won 4/5 games, loosing 1-2 against a Mara (smash), Sorc (lightning), Jug (tank) and OP (heals) setup.

 

The effectiveness of 2 DoT's specs was pretty funny to watch, enemy healers where struggleling balancing out removing my DoT's and healing at same time.

 

Our tactic was pretty simple. DoT 1 dps and enemy healer. Focus the unguarded in between. CC tank and other DPS (who isnt "supposed" to be DoT'd) - Then, Fire up 2 orbitals, pull in the un guarded dps focus, stun tank so he cant switch guard and try burn down the target.

 

The burst from 5 dot's, 2 orbitals + all the single target abilities will pretty much kill anything instantly after the pull if we get all the cc right.

 

problems is the CC and controling who is DoT'd. The AoE from corrosive grenade ****ed us up a few times, when i failed and hit targets i wasnt supposed to.

 

Concidering trying the same as engineer, with tank specced assassin in dps gear. Set up 2 orbitals near a wall, pull in 2 enemies, explosive probe + 2 roll bangs would be nice trolling . Assuming people dont see it coming and hide ^^

[Master_Nate]

Any one else have any further insight or opinions on this? I have been unable to download the PTS and was curious of what other snipers thought about their prospects in arena. I see many claiming they won't work and a few who claim that they will. I love the Agent class and do intend to play my sniper.

 

I could heal on my operative, I guess, but don't really want to have to revert back to those days. I have many alts at 55 but none I enjoy as much as my agent classes and for that reason I do not plan on putting much time into the alts at this time. I know the player makes a difference and it's not just the class, but I'm ignoring that logic for this posts sake. I'm just looking for more opinions from those with experience on the PTS and what their thoughts are on it.

 

I'm not trying to debate the issue but merely hear more from the sniper community. Thanks.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Master_Nate

[ZipZep]

Well, im still testing the different builds.

 

First of all, I have concluded that i personally prefer 2x Smash over pretty much any setup that includes deception/infiltration Shadows/assassins. In arena's these guys can lock us down pretty well.

 

As i wrote earlier, I tested full Lethality which suprisingly wasnt bad at all. Naturally overall dps is very high compared to MM and Engineer, but unlike engineer, its feels better able to perform bursts often enough that it makes a difference.

 

Wanted to try Lethality/engineer hybrid aswell to get the extra cluster bombs. Havent played this in a long time, but practiced in a few normals before joining PTS, and this is likely the build in which I can pull the craziest dps in normals. Does it work in Arenas?

 

My team was PT tank (without tank gear "sigh), Sorc healer, Mara smash and me.

The team we played that night, OP healer, Jug tank, Deception Assassin and Smash Mara.

 

Pretty much ended top dps by a fair margin every game, and we won i think 3-1. The burst from this spec is insane.

Put Int. Probe, Corrosive Grenade and Dart on 1 target, Corrosive grenade and dart on another, and leave 2 untouched for CC's. Save Explosive probe for the first real switch after, in our case when the assassin had blown his shroud the first time. In the game we lost, we pretty much had their entire team around 30% hp even tank, which just goes to show that me and the other dps ****ed things up a little here and failed at focussing. We never played together before.

 

Alot of people including my self thought any build with Lethality would be useless because everybody will be running OP healers, who can cleanse our stuff. But so far I havent seen a single OP able to both heal up his team and cleanse it. They all manage to remove it from themselfes, but thats about it. Even here, lingering toxins will still allow your cull do to dmg.

 

Still, hard to tell how this will really work in more organized games. I didnt know the guys we played. Still I think Lethality and the hybrid deserves a look, it is at least not as useless as I thought. I cant pull 1300dps as MM, but as hybrid, its pretty doable, unless ofc your team gets **** at all together

[mattycutts]

not been on for last week to test server,

 

 

nice feed back zip.

 

I could imagine the hybrid eng/leth be quite good. not going to get on test server for few days, let us know how u get on with the hybrid?

[Master_Nate]

Put Int. Probe, Corrosive Grenade and Dart on 1 target, Corrosive grenade and dart on another, and leave 2 untouched for CC's.

 

Did you consider any priority in setting your burst up? Meaning, did you use your Probe,CG, and Dart on a specific AC(tanks or healers or dps)? Or did you just decide on any two names before the match and try your method out as the situation presented itself?

 

I'm assuming most of the time it was pre-planned and then turned situational but figured I'd try and ask what you found worked best for you just for discussion purposes. I am unable to get on the PTS at this time and even if I could, I wouldn't have any teammates as they aren't about to download the PTS. Thanks in advance.

 

Edit: Basically just curious of how you decided your "two targets" and what your thoughts were behind selecting those two unless there was none and it was purely a situational decision. Big thanks for doing some testing and reporting back to the Snipers as well. I greatly appreciate it myself.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Master_Nate

[ZipZep]

The group I was playing in consisted of 1 guildy that I know, who played tank. The other 2 where some US guys we have never played with before, so our coordination wasnt very good.

 

We did try to plan the dps rotation though. Since we played agianst Marauder and Assassin, we singled out the assassin as the weakest link of the two and for the 2nd we picked the OP healer, mostly because its just seems better to at least give him a reason to pop his defensive cd's every now and then.

Basically we sent our marauder, who also played rage at the healer from the start. I would put my 3 DoT's on their assassin ad the on the OP healer. At this point, their healer had guard, and our first attampt at burning down the assassin could be made. Stun the tank, and try burst assassin. We are not really trying to kill the assassin before he pops his shroud the first time though. So I would fx. not use my explosive probe from the start.

 

As a main rule, we never hit a guarded target agian after these steps. Hitting a guarded target even for a few seconds is a massive loss of pressure on enemy team.

 

Sometimes I would try spread my DoTs a little more around, also hitting tank and Marauder, but I dont think this is doing anything else but padding up my overall dps, and making it hard for us to mezz people.

 

It's very different from MM. Running Lethality should make your group stronger and stronger the longer into the fight you go. After your dots are applied the first time, you can pretty much rotate bewteen the 2 selected targets every 9 sec. way more often than Engineer, and unlike MM, you will still be draining resources from enemy Healer on other targets from DoT's.

 

The thing is, running smash and DoT spec, many times during the fights, the other DPS or even tank might suddenly be getting low from random (read mistakes we made with DoT's or because we switch targets to slow afer they get guard ) and we would ofc try to switch at ay time this seemed a good option.

 

The situation I mentioned in my previous post where our healer suddenly got killed with all 4 enemy players close or even under 30% hp kind of shows the power of this setup. Was an annoying loss. We had almost twice the dps of other team, but ofc way way to spread out. Its a balance

Edited September 19, 2013 by ZipZep

[Master_Nate]

Thank you for the break down of your fight. I have only really seen once sniper stream arenas so I am anxious to see how they play out myself. Edited September 19, 2013 by Master_Nate