Why isn't combat fun?

[Gyrovague]

This isn't a "Bash SWTOR" thread. I like SWTOR, and after taking a year's hiatus have been leveling up some toons again. It's a neat game.

 

But...I find combat oddly unsatisfying. And I think I know why: I don't feel like I'm "doing damage" when I press my buttons, not in the way I do when playing WoW. I've killed a lot of mobs on a lot of toons in WoW, but I still find it more satisfying than I do in SWTOR.

 

Why is this?

 

I have a couple of theories:

 

1) SWTOR seems to require a LOT more hits to kill level appropriate mobs. Even normal/weak ones take a lot of individual hits. So maybe it feels like I'm not doing damage because none of my hits take a huge chunk off their health. (I should go kill mobs in a lowbie zone and see if it feels different.)

 

2) The timing of abiliies (button presses) to animations to damage is wonky. I noticed that when I use abilities that stun or knock back, the effect happens before the animation, that is, as soon as I click the button (assuming its off cooldown). So I started looking carefully and realized that the damage happens instantly, too, without waiting for the animation. So maybe it doesn't feel like I'm "doing damage" because the changes in health aren't synced with the animations?

 

3) The thing that queues up my actions if I press them before my GCD has ended. Maybe that's what feels odd. In WoW I'm used to actions being ignored while I'm on GCD, whereas in SWTOR the action triggers a fraction of a second later. Could this be working sort of like when sound is out of sync in a movie, and making it feel like I'm not performing my own actions?

 

Any ideas? Anybody else feel the same way?

[Banegio]

The ability queue window is adjustable in the preferences. It is default to 0.5 sec

 

But yeah the animation and ability delays can be annoying especially during lag periods

Edited August 20, 2013 by Banegio

[Suromir]

"this is not a thread to bash swtor"

 

/bashes SWTOR

 

/mindboggle

 

soooo..what's the point? if you don't find combat fun then you'll want to move on. it's not going to change.

 

My only gripe with the combat (other than the hack job they did with sorc/sage knockback animations for the new effect) is how lightsabers don't feel like anything more than a glowing stick. And I'm not talking about insta-kill either...it's a game...gamemechanics rule and all that....

 

so I agree with what you're saying to an extent...but..I don't see the point of posting this other than the obvious "I don't want to bash SWTOR but let me go ahead and do so while comparing it to WoW"

[Gyrovague]

"this is not a thread to bash swtor"

 

/bashes SWTOR

 

/mindboggle

 

soooo..what's the point? if you don't find combat fun then you'll want to move on. it's not going to change.

 

My only gripe with the combat (other than the hack job they did with sorc/sage knockback animations for the new effect) is how lightsabers don't feel like anything more than a glowing stick. And I'm not talking about insta-kill either...it's a game...gamemechanics rule and all that....

 

so I agree with what you're saying to an extent...but..I don't see the point of posting this other than the obvious "I don't want to bash SWTOR but let me go ahead and do so while comparing it to WoW"

 

Wow...you seriously need to take a chill pill.

 

So having ANY mild reservations about a game is considered bashing? I like the game. I'm playing it. The classes are fun, the graphics are cool, the storylines are entertaining...but the combat is not as good as it could be.

 

The only reason I prefaced it with "I'm not trying to bash SWTOR" was to keep foaming-at-the-mouth fanbois like you out of the thread.

[Suromir]

Wow...you seriously need to take a chill pill.

 

So having ANY mild reservations about a game is considered bashing? I like the game. I'm playing it. The classes are fun, the graphics are cool, the storylines are entertaining...but the combat is not as good as it could be.

 

The only reason I prefaced it with "I'm not trying to bash SWTOR" was to keep foaming-at-the-mouth fanbois like you out of the thread.

 

shows what you know. I'm very vocal about my displeasure with this game, it's design choices, and the turn it's taken and the crappy shortcuts they took to save money and cut corners.

 

So "fanboi" ?? lol.....wow. you couldn't be more wrong.

 

and why do I need to "take a chill pill" ? because I pointed out that you state the thread wasn't to bash SWTOR but then you go ahead and bash it by saying combat isn't fun....um...that's bashing, kid. Maybe you should read your own thread before replying to what someone else points out about your own words?

 

just a thought.

 

and you never answered the question...What exactly is your point? other than comparing it to WoW and saying combat sucks?

[Gyrovague]

Oh, so now I said it 'sucks'? I'm using WoW as a comparison, partly because I'm familiar with it, not as the benchmark for excellence.

 

Sorry I insulted your favorite game. I'll send you a tissue in-game.

 

Anybody not hyper sensitive have any insight to my original question? I'm really curious why it doesn't feel like my button presses are directly causing damage.

[Fidelicatessen]

How is your gear relative to the level of mobs you're fighting? I find that I can easily 1-shot weak mobs at even level, but that's because my gear is up to snuff. Might help if you upgraded a bit?

 

If I'm entirely off-base, forgive me.

[Gyrovague]

How is your gear relative to the level of mobs you're fighting? I find that I can easily 1-shot weak mobs at even level, but that's because my gear is up to snuff. Might help if you upgraded a bit?

 

If I'm entirely off-base, forgive me.

 

Whoah, really? I usually try to keep my weapon barrel or lightsaber hilt a blue of the highest level I can use, and otherwise spend my tokens on mods. So I'm not going out spending tons of credits on purples at every level, but I think my gear is passable.

 

But I don't come CLOSE to one-shotting anything. Nowhere near. EDIT: And usually I'm fighting mobs that are 1-2 levels below me.

 

What class are you playing?

Edited August 20, 2013 by Gyrovague

[HelinCarnate]

Because in most cases there is no danger. Trash mobs should do more damage but have fewer HP to make things a bit more exciting and keep you on your toes.

[Gyrovague]

Because in most cases there is no danger. Trash mobs should do more damage but have fewer HP to make things a bit more exciting and keep you on your toes.

 

Hmm, I don't know if that's it. At least not for me. When I'm leveling a WoW toon I'm never in danger, especially with heirlooms, but it still feels very different to hit mobs, with melee weapons or with spells.

 

Maybe it's a combination of all three things I mentioned: there's no delay between button click and visual effect, the damage isn't caused until the visual effect lands, and each hit takes a huge chunk out of my target.

[HelinCarnate]

Hmm, I don't know if that's it. At least not for me. When I'm leveling a WoW toon I'm never in danger, especially with heirlooms, but it still feels very different to hit mobs, with melee weapons or with spells.

 

Maybe it's a combination of all three things I mentioned: there's no delay between button click and visual effect, the damage isn't caused until the visual effect lands, and each hit takes a huge chunk out of my target.

 

The lower hp on the mobs would make each hit take a larger percentage of their health away so at least one of those issues would be addressed.

[Jeweledleah]

in personal opinion? TOR combat is a lot more satisfying to me, because I'm actually using my abilities, instead of one shotting everything. in WoW - the only time you can go through anywhere near your rotation is either on practice dummies, or raid boss.

 

in TOR, my characters actually feel like they are in combat. I get to think strategically, even use cc sometimes.

 

so... your mileage may vary?

 

SWTOR combat is a lot of fun for me, personally.

 

the problem with your thread is that you are making a blanket statement. you equate "for me" with "for everyone"

[Solloby]

Perhaps it's the class/AC you play?

 

I love combat on my Sorc, but don't really like it on my Operative. I also came over from WoW, and at first I really disliked the combat, but I don't know whether it's because I was encouraged to level a melee first over a caster, or if there's something off about SWTOR combat.

[ZionHalcyon]

I find combat very fun.

 

Maybe find a different class to play as?

[CrazyOldMystic]

Stay away from my animations. Its the one thing op they got right in this game. If you were an experienced mmo player you would be using those animations for fun. Example just as I send off sunder armor on my sith warrior I jump at that exact moment so it looks like I am sending the tip of my blade right through my enemies skull, and splitting it in two. I also turn or move forward at the same time depending on the fight. This is just a small example of the many animations I use in this game to have fun. This is also why I could not stand guild wars two as the second you moved during a animation, the ability stopped, and you lost your damage.

 

Cant one shot a weak, where do you players come from? Give your brain a chance. Upgrading the weapon is only one step. Example for the first two planets on my alts I will run with virtually no stats at all in adaptive armor. By the third planet I use all those saved up planetary commendations and pick up the best possible mods, enhancements, and weapon modifiers. I pick up enough for both me and my main companion. I then use creds for the armoring s sense they cost 7 planetary comms each. End results are simple, sense I skip every other planet on upgrades, my toons are always top notch stat wise with mods after the first two planets. I kid you not I have killed some 30 npcs in about 5 to 10 minutes. The only class this does not hold true to is the Imperial sniper, as its different, and not a fast paced leveling class. It has excellent damage just takes a bit longer to unleash it.

 

Is it annoying we have to use companions to survive in this game yes, but its how the game is made, now if your trying to be a hot shot soloing everything, its no wonder your having problems. This only works for about the first two worlds after that you better have your companion out or you will be healing every couple steps.

[Lurtzello]

and each hit takes a huge chunk out of my target.

Ah, this remembered me of my first character I leveled up, a Paladin Tank back in 2008. I recall, at around level 40, dealing 5-10% damage per hit lol. Of course, things have gotten quicker since then... Ah, memories...

Anyway, as others have suggested, in the Preferences > Controls options you can set the Ability Action Queue Window to 0. The game has it set on 0.5 as default mainly because in SWTOR the Global Cooldown is 1.5 seconds whereas in most MMOs it is just 1 second (which may also be one of the reasons the combat feels clunky to you).

Another factor is the absence of the auto-attack which presence surely makes the combat feel faster in WoW.

Purple text = semi-digression, feel free to skip it if you're not interested

Both these differences were put in place, at least partially, because of the animations (BioWare probably felt that having them 1 second long would have made them look weird and that having an auto-attack which animation is interrupted each time you use a proper ability would have been annoying to see in itself). Personally, I'm completely in favor of the way BioWare has handled the matter, focusing on the value of the animations: in my opinion it is one of the best aspects of combat, and one of the reasons why it feels "heroic" (the term used to describe combat in SWTOR by marketing, back in the day), the other being the fact that you face multiple opponents most of the time, at least outside of operations.

On top of the aforementioned reasons, having leveled up 11 characters using different specs each time, I can assure you that what you feel may very well depend on the class/spec you are using and on the level you are. For example, Sages and Sorcerers may feel slow against multiple targets until you get Quake or Force Storm, Scrapper Scoundrels and Concealment Operatives don't always feel fast until you get the "attack from behind while stealthed" ability (I don't recall its name right now), Marksmanship Snipers and Sharpshooter Gunslingers also could feel slow until you get Followthrough or Trickshot. One class that to me seemed very fast all the way through has been the Combat Sentinel (Carnage Marauder) since at level 21 you can get a passive speed buff of 15% with the Ataru Form and when you unlock it you also modify the Zen (Berserk) buff to give you 30% alacrity for the next 6 abilities. I've also never tried out Focus (Rage) specialized Knights (Warriors), but since they rely even more on burst damage they may be the droids you're looking for.

Lastly, companions. Having all Legacy Presence buffs unlocked does help in making everything feel faster (at low levels, companions just oneshot almost everything) so if you have cap level characters and still have to complete the conversations with them that's a way of easing the leveling up of other toons. Also regarding companions: which ones are you using, do they always have the passive buff active and how well geared are they?

I hope that I've been useful and that I didn't bore anyone with this my wall of text.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Lurtzello

[Prototypemind]

Definitely enjoy the combat. You have to manage your attacks to move through areas smoothly and know how to handle larger mobs or different types of higher-level enemies. The animations are great for the most part as well, with only a few really being off.

[oaceen]

the only thing i don't like about combat is the amount of CC that's being thrown around lately when i'm tanking or melee dps

 

spending a third to half of my time tanking something on my back, hunch over stunned, getting knocked into the air, pushed back, etc. is just extremely annoying. it offers nothing for 'gameplay' either. maybe if there was a red circle i could avoid or a channel i could interrupt, but more and more there's a lot of unavoidable CC.

 

i'm not against CC though. i actually welcome it, but when it's an almost constant thing, the control is very severe (20m knockbacks in the new bounty stuff for instance), and almost solely targeted at the tank and to a lesser extent melee dps (operations chief), then much less against heal / dps (assuming they don't pull aggro), it just really discourages me from tanking anymore.

[Nemmar]

Well, i completely disagree.

 

In terms of "tab targeting" combat, this is the best one out there. Definitly more satisfying than WoW, wich made it popular.

 

The only problem i have with it is the ability failure/ghost cooldown. Its a huge turn off.

 

I love it otherwise. They accomplished what they set out to do. In terms of balance, looking heroic and iconic star wars, its all in the ball. I just feel that the engine is holding the game back. I wish Bioware and EA had the balls to do a Star Wars the old republic reborn, ala FFXIV. It seems to have done wonders for them.

[Chicktopus]

I've had many comments from onlooking friends about how SWTOR looks really boring because the fighting is effectively just standing in front of a target waggling a glowing stick until one of the other of us falls down. I've tried to argue that there's rotations, so it's not a case of button-mashing, but they claim that just makes it more boring.

 

The worst part? I think they're right, I just don't want to admit it. The best fights in SWTOR are Operation or Flashpoint bosses in which you are required to pay attention to the environment and react appropriately. Indeed, in these fights you spend hardly any time actually hitting the boss at all and that's what makes them good, not pressing the same four or five buttons over and over in the same order.

 

As has been mentioned before, there's no challenge to most of the content, fighting is a chore, a necessary time-sink to get to get from point A to point B. Very occasionally there will be a fight which requires some thinking about, but not often, and these fights typically involve abusing line-of sight and AI pathfinding in order to beat an opponent the designers never intended to be beaten by a single player.

 

TL;DR -- there's a distinct line between fights you can win and fights you can't, both are mindless slogs and there's very little excitement to combat outside certain Boss fights.

[Fidelicatessen]

What class are you playing?

 

I play a Sharpshooter Gunslinger, and I'm 55 with 66/69 bits (Ranold, BC server). One-shotting weaks with Aimed Shot, just to be specific.

[Karkais]

Compared to other MMOs that I play, combat in SWTOR is VERY fun, although it may depend on what character you are playing.

 

I would personally use SWTOR as an example of combat "done right".

 

"this is not a thread to bash swtor"

 

/bashes SWTOR

 

/mindboggle

 

soooo..what's the point? if you don't find combat fun then you'll want to move on. it's not going to change.

 

Constructive criticism != bashing. And yes, it has uses, since developers CAN change the game according to players well-argumented wishes sometimes. It has happened, I have plenty of experience of that. That is why I personally try to initiate discussion about games in their own forums. Its not going to change drastically, but it can change.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Karkais

[Chicktopus]

As a matter of interest: Which classes are you all playing, and do you find combat fun as them?

 

I personally find my Juggernaut, Assassin and Sentinel combat very droll.

 

Mercenary isn't awful, probably because I can be a little more active while I shoot things.

 

*EDIT* I should probably not that this is PvE combat, not PvP.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Chicktopus

[ImpactHound]

How is your gear relative to the level of mobs you're fighting? I find that I can easily 1-shot weak mobs at even level, but that's because my gear is up to snuff. Might help if you upgraded a bit?

 

If I'm entirely off-base, forgive me.

 

You sound off base completely, you can't kill anything even level in one hit in this game. The closest you might come is say, full channelling Death From Above on a Bounty Hunter and if you're both well geared & crit, you can knock down and kill multiple weak enemies from the full string of hits.

[hadoken]

Really depends on what I'm playing. Some classes I can very quickly and easily take down opponents (sniper) and others have a much longer TTK (powertech) due I assume to how they're intentionally designed.

 

Fun though is more than just TTK, it can be animations/look and variety of abilities too.

 

One thing I do think annoys me a bit in general is mob density. There is a LOT of fighting you will do regardless of the class (save stealthers) due to how they've set up the world. So any class that isn't that interesting to you in combat will become extremely boring in time.

Edited August 20, 2013 by hadoken