Shadow: Arena PTS Report

[Xinika]

Been extensively testing my Sin in the new Arena mode over the weekend with mixed results. A direct heads up for anyone stepping into arena: You will be pushed to your utmost limits. Your finesse with this class will need to be spot on or you will fall. Arena is far more intense than Warzones. A simple mistake can cost you the entire game. Sins are no exception. We have to play out heart out to perform in comparison to other top tiered classes / teams. Warzones are far more forgiving than Arena.

 

Darkness / KC

+ Utility

+ Decent Sustained Damage

+ Good Mitigation

- Not good for actual Tanking

- Suffers to Smash Damage

Deception / Infiltration

+ Good Opening Burst

+ Low Slash is great for swaps / setups

+ Less A/E Damage Taken

- Bad Sustained Damage

- Low Survivability

- Very easy to shutdown / kite

- Lack of Utility

 

Madness / Balance

+ Sever Force useful as a root for peels

- Bad Damage

- Horrendous Survivability

- Very easy to shutdown

- Stupendous Ramp-up time

- Lack of Utility

 

Sins are middle-pack tier in Arena. They are not bad and they are not that impressive. However, even being at middle of the pack, they will require the player to truly perform at a top notch level. Arena is a multitude of awareness, on-the-go strat, execution and mentality. It will take a while to accurately fit in since you'll no longer be sitting at the node guarding.

 

Another thing I want to talk about is the USELESSNESS of Phase Walk. Phase Walk is good for saving you maybe like, once ever so often and it's pitiful at that because there's the chance it puts you out of LOS of your healer / guard. Something needs to be done. I never thought I'd be saying this, but I believe we have the worst 51 ability out of all other ACs. It was good for node guarding - but those node guarding days are over.

 

Darkness at pure tank-for-tank levels is also utter trash. The spike issues in PvE are afflicting it in PvP. It can drop faster than a sage. Not to mention, I'm forced to run this spec in DPS gear for optimal levels of play against the best teams. I'm truth, I become some weird damage-debuffing-peeling-utility hybrid. Don't get me wrong, it's super cool, but also depressing that Darkness can frankly keep up or outdo Deception in sustainability.

 

Deception is surprisingly not as good as we hyped it up to be. Lot of this is due to the Guard mechanic. Our opener burst is fine, but we quickly drop behind and when that happens, if we're not low slashing and setting up CCs otherwise - we become a gimped marauder. Like I said, to play a Sin at top notch levels in Arena is going to require a lot of the player. It's far more demanding on what you, as an Assassin / Shadow have to do compared to some of the other classes like Marauders.

 

As far as Madness goes, I have not had too much extensive testing with it but from the tests gathered I don't think I need anything more to convince me otherwise. The spec is absolutely garbage and should be avoided at all costs.

 

Keep in mind Phase Walk is bugged on the PTS. I usually avoid abusing that bug (no CD), so please do not base any P. Walk logic off this unintentional effect.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Xinika

[UltimateKrucible]

Thanks for the write-up, Xin, and for the one on General. Have to say I'm getting slightly concerned about Arenas.

 

I had hoped that they would be fun one-to-one battles, but it seems to me that the two classes everyone knows are OP - OP healers and Maras - are dominating. If that's the case I'm not sure how long a shelf-life arenas will have. Who wants to be pounded into dust while being unable to kill anyone?

 

I was wondering how the solo-ranked queue worked. Does it produce better matches?

[Przemo_No]

Thanks, Xinika.

I actually tried to access the Arenas on PTS, but after some 30 minutes with no luck, I gave up.

It seems that only groups or guilds can do it, there are no solo queuers. Pitiful, because on live servers there are plenty of them.

I am not the best neither the worst PVP player, I learned my skill hard way, but what you say on general notes, means the same as in your Sin/Shadow threads - our damage is not on par with other classes - what will unfortunately determine our fate in Arenas.

 

I care less if PW is fixed, it's almost useless anyway - and as you say - with node guarding gone, we simply HAVE to have better damage, just to survive.

Otherwise, forget it on intense arenas.

[Xinika]

I care less if PW is fixed, it's almost useless anyway - and as you say - with node guarding gone, we simply HAVE to have better damage, just to survive.

Otherwise, forget it on intense arenas.

I knew this was going to happen too. Our opening burst is now so meaningless that the tank spec can produce comparable sustained damage with good pressure, more utility and an extra guard if needed. Deception may work in the lower tiers, but the higher tiers easily shows the problem with accurate guard swaps, peels and CCs working against you.

 

Also, concerning the PTS - Not a lot of casuals or solo-inspired players will be available there. It consists mainly of guilds and groups trying to get in on the action and build on their teams for a 2.4 headstart. When 2.4 comes on live, it will be much more available to the masses.

 

Who wants to be pounded into dust while being unable to kill anyone?

 

I was wondering how the solo-ranked queue worked. Does it produce better matches?

Solo-ranked queue still needs some work, but it is performing as it should for a PTS addition. It's basically an all-out PuG fest so the control concerning the groups are basically up to who queues. I think it should work more like a FP q-system, but that would drastically reduce who can actually get in to play.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Xinika

[Vaerah]

Deception is surprisingly not as good as we hyped it up to be.

 

I am not surprised at all. There's a reason why a well played tank spec + DPS gear sin / shadow is priority to take over any deception. The former does more overall damage, more guarding, higher survivability and utility (pull anyone?) than deception. Deception if good for reg WZs against bads and to gank level 25 noobs on Tatooine. That's it. Unless you want to struggle twice as much to almost achieve the average AC performance of course.

[Grue_Hunter]

Been extensively testing my Sin in the new Arena mode over the weekend with mixed results. A direct heads up for anyone stepping into arena: You will be pushed to your utmost limits. Your finesse with this class will need to be spot on or you will fall. Arena is far more intense than Warzones. A simple mistake can cost you the entire game. Sins are no exception. We have to play out heart out to perform in comparison to other top tiered classes / teams. Warzones are far more forgiving than Arena.

 

Darkness / KC

+ Utility

+ Decent Sustained Damage

+ Good Mitigation

- Not good for actual Tanking

- Suffers to Smash Damage

Deception / Infiltration

+ Good Opening Burst

+ Low Slash is great for swaps / setups

+ Less A/E Damage Taken

- Bad Sustained Damage

- Low Survivability

- Very easy to shutdown / kite

- Lack of Utility

 

Madness / Balance

+ Sever Force useful as a root for peels

- Bad Damage

- Horrendous Survivability

- Very easy to shutdown

- Stupendous Ramp-up time

- Lack of Utility

 

Sins are middle-pack tier in Arena. They are not bad and they are not that impressive. However, even being at middle of the pack, they will require the player to truly perform at a top notch level. Arena is a multitude of awareness, on-the-go strat, execution and mentality. It will take a while to accurately fit in since you'll no longer be sitting at the node guarding.

 

Another thing I want to talk about is the USELESSNESS of Phase Walk. Phase Walk is good for saving you maybe like, once ever so often and it's pitiful at that because there's the chance it puts you out of LOS of your healer / guard. Something needs to be done. I never thought I'd be saying this, but I believe we have the worst 51 ability out of all other ACs. It was good for node guarding - but those node guarding days are over.

 

Darkness at pure tank-for-tank levels is also utter trash. The spike issues in PvE are afflicting it in PvP. It can drop faster than a sage. Not to mention, I'm forced to run this spec in DPS gear for optimal levels of play against the best teams. I'm truth, I become some weird damage-debuffing-peeling-utility hybrid. Don't get me wrong, it's super cool, but also depressing that Darkness can frankly keep up or outdo Deception in sustainability.

 

Deception is surprisingly not as good as we hyped it up to be. Lot of this is due to the Guard mechanic. Our opener burst is fine, but we quickly drop behind and when that happens, if we're not low slashing and setting up CCs otherwise - we become a gimped marauder. Like I said, to play a Sin at top notch levels in Arena is going to require a lot of the player. It's far more demanding on what you, as an Assassin / Shadow have to do compared to some of the other classes like Marauders.

 

As far as Madness goes, I have not had too much extensive testing with it but from the tests gathered I don't think I need anything more to convince me otherwise. The spec is absolutely garbage and should be avoided at all costs.

 

Keep in mind Phase Walk is bugged on the PTS. I usually avoid abusing that bug (no CD), so please do not base any P. Walk logic off this unintentional effect.

 

You are bang on for many of the points. I'll only add a couple of points.

 

To be honest, the only time I've really used Phase Walk in wzs has been for the "Shadow's Shelter" when in KC build (to help out the healers). (Oddly, it seems to boost the healers' stats but it doesn't seem to really show up for the Shadow when the final tally is done at the end. )

 

But you are right, PW has been a not-very-useful skill addition for shadow/assassins. And, yes, you are right about the KC build not being suitable for actual tanking, since the dreaded 1.3 nerf the KC/Darkness builds have been more "crowd control" (and pretty weak at that).

[Xinika]

Update:

[Stavroz]

 

Darkness / KC

+ Utility

+ Decent Sustained Damage

+ Good Mitigation

- Not good for actual Tanking

- Suffers to Smash Damage

 

If you are taking too much smash and other AE dmg then you are playing the wrong talent spec.

 

Part of the problem with tank shadows is that full tank is a terrible spec for high end pvp.

 

Its actually pretty ridiculous that the best talent spec for tanking is a hybrid 23/21/2 spec.

Now if you don't know the spec you are prob wondering why would i put 21 points into a dps tree.

 

Simple...the tree gives your tank more survivabilty then the tank tree.

 

The talent Masked assault in infiltration tree makes Black out give you 25% less dmg (like battle readiness in tank tree) for 8 Seconds.

 

It also gives you the same effect when exiting stealth so you take 25% less dmg for 8 seconds after exiting stealth. Further more when comming out of stealth not only do you get 8 seconds of reduced dmg it also resets the Black out so you can then use it again.

 

Basically this turns your Vanish into a defensive cooldown when taking too much gaurd dmg.

Use black out and take 25% less dmg for 8 seconds. Then vanish and you will immedietly be taken out of stealth by guard dmg but now you are taking again 25% less dmg for another 8 seconds and you black out is reset at which point you then can use it again b/c it has been reset.

 

That is 24 seconds straight of 25% less dmg, if you choose to use it like that...or of cource you can use the cool downs more strategically.

 

 

Next in the Infiltration tree is Fade.

 

Fade reduced the cooldown of black out by 15 seconds so black out now is on a 45sec cooldown.

 

In addition fade makes you take 30% less AE dmg so where you were eating 7k smashes in the Full tank spec you are now eating 5-6k smashes. Big difference.

 

Now having said all this the shadow is still a bit weak.

Why?

 

Well while we can pop cooldowns that can give us large periods of taking 25% less dmg our base mitigation is trash.

 

34% in full conq. So even though we can pop a lot of 25% less dmg cooldowns (black out and battle readiness) our dmg mitigation only goes up to 59% while under these effects.

 

Considering Vanguards and Guardians run around as default at about 52% mitigation our survivabilety is pretty laughable in comparison. So basically we have to use defensive cooldowns to get 7% more mitigation then the other 2 tanks at default.

 

This is the real problem with shadows.

 

Our base armour needs to be raised to 40% as default with top tier pvp gear.

[leijae]

I played maybe 15 or 20 matches of Solo on the PTS the first weekend it was out. At first i started off as full infil spec, decided to try balance, immediately regretted that decision. for the last 10 games i went full KC and out left over points into infil.

 

What i noticed is exactly the same as Shin'arika pointed out. For Solo's, KC is best. KS in DPS gear (and I wore a shield gen, but occasionally switch to focus gen). I can say that as KC with dps gear we won most of the matches. You can go back and watch my stream twitch.tv/leijae and try to find it.... I'm not going to. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Vaerah]

I played maybe 15 or 20 matches of Solo on the PTS the first weekend it was out. At first i started off as full infil spec, decided to try balance, immediately regretted that decision. for the last 10 games i went full KC and out left over points into infil.

 

What i noticed is exactly the same as Shin'arika pointed out. For Solo's, KC is best. KS in DPS gear (and I wore a shield gen, but occasionally switch to focus gen). I can say that as KC with dps gear we won most of the matches. You can go back and watch my stream twitch.tv/leijae and try to find it.... I'm not going to. Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

Basically the same old, trite crap. Tank spec in DPS gear being more competitive and just better than any other spec playing in their related set of gear. Years go on, shadows are firmly stuck into the same 1 spec, 1 trick pony.

 

I quit WAR for this, I quit GW2 for this. Having to play the 1 "gods approved" certified spec that I don't like, in gear that is not even its own designated gear = terrible design.

[randiesel]

Basically the same old, trite crap. Tank spec in DPS gear being more competitive and just better than any other spec playing in their related set of gear. Years go on, shadows are firmly stuck into the same 1 spec, 1 trick pony.

 

I quit WAR for this, I quit GW2 for this. Having to play the 1 "gods approved" certified spec that I don't like, in gear that is not even its own designated gear = terrible design.

 

I can definitely agree with what you say, but the same could be said for other classes as well. Smash maras/juggs, lightning sorcs, infiltration shadows, medicine operatives, gunnery commandos, AS vanguards (pre-2.0). Everyone seemingly gravitates towards the most OP spec for pvp to give them whatever edge that the other specs don't have. A lot of times the OP spec is the one with the lower skill cap required, so that also is more enticing to a broader audience, since not everyone is able to play at the same skill level.

 

Seemingly, in MMOs this will always be the case since no MMO I've ever played has had perfect or even near-perfect class balance.

[Stavroz]

I can definitely agree with what you say, but the same could be said for other classes as well. Smash maras/juggs, lightning sorcs, infiltration shadows, medicine operatives, gunnery commandos, AS vanguards (pre-2.0). Everyone seemingly gravitates towards the most OP spec for pvp to give them whatever edge that the other specs don't have. A lot of times the OP spec is the one with the lower skill cap required, so that also is more enticing to a broader audience, since not everyone is able to play at the same skill level.

 

Seemingly, in MMOs this will always be the case since no MMO I've ever played has had perfect or even near-perfect class balance.

 

I agree with this however there is not having perfect balance and having terrible class balance and devs that are not in touch with their community.

 

BW devs simply have neglected many aspect of pvp and its very poor imo.

 

The game is not massively imbalanced but it has issues that have been outstanding for over a year for some classes that have not been addressed.

That is poor imo.

[randiesel]

Agreed.

 

Edit: I just read your sig. Former op/scoundrel dps here, gave me a good laugh

Edited September 6, 2013 by randiesel

[Vaerah]

I can definitely agree with what you say, but the same could be said for other classes as well. Smash maras/juggs, lightning sorcs, infiltration shadows, medicine operatives, gunnery commandos, AS vanguards (pre-2.0). Everyone seemingly gravitates towards the most OP spec for pvp to give them whatever edge that the other specs don't have. A lot of times the OP spec is the one with the lower skill cap required, so that also is more enticing to a broader audience, since not everyone is able to play at the same skill level.

 

Seemingly, in MMOs this will always be the case since no MMO I've ever played has had perfect or even near-perfect class balance.

 

Sure, but:

 

1) Smashers are OP, the other specs are "normal". Whereas we have 1 "ok" spec and the others downright suck. See a difference?

 

2) The developers explicitly wanted to kill hybrid specs. And what do we get? The best spec is a tank + inf hybrid, using hybrid gear (or DPS).

 

Fail, fail, FAIL on all the line.

[randiesel]

Sure, but:

 

1) Smashers are OP, the other specs are "normal". Whereas we have 1 "ok" spec and the others downright suck. See a difference?

 

2) The developers explicitly wanted to kill hybrid specs. And what do we get? The best spec is a tank + inf hybrid, using hybrid gear (or DPS).

 

Fail, fail, FAIL on all the line.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Only point I was making is that people gravitate to the OP specs because they are generally easy to play. Smash is easy to play and (IMO) has a lower skill cap than other specs I've played, but not everyone is able to play at a higher skill threshold, so they go for the easy win.

 

This game, at its core, is going to have a lot of players gravitate toward the Knight or Warrior class, as we can see with the size of their playerbase. That means much more diversity among the Knight/Warrior population, and likely some players are not as skilled as others.

 

Best example: Guardian who used to play on my server swore up and down he would never play smash spec. Kinda got a good laugh at the irony of seeing him in smash spec the first time it happened, but ultimately he went with the most efficient spec available, regardless if he was much better overall than 90% of other Guardians I've ever encountered.