Xinika Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) Been extensively testing my Sin in the new Arena mode over the weekend with mixed results. A direct heads up for anyone stepping into arena: You will be pushed to your utmost limits. Your finesse with this class will need to be spot on or you will fall. Arena is far more intense than Warzones. A simple mistake can cost you the entire game. Sins are no exception. We have to play out heart out to perform in comparison to other top tiered classes / teams. Warzones are far more forgiving than Arena. Darkness / KC + Utility + Decent Sustained Damage + Good Mitigation - Not good for actual Tanking - Suffers to Smash Damage Deception / Infiltration + Good Opening Burst + Low Slash is great for swaps / setups + Less A/E Damage Taken - Bad Sustained Damage - Low Survivability - Very easy to shutdown / kite - Lack of Utility Madness / Balance + Sever Force useful as a root for peels - Bad Damage - Horrendous Survivability - Very easy to shutdown - Stupendous Ramp-up time - Lack of Utility Sins are middle-pack tier in Arena. They are not bad and they are not that impressive. However, even being at middle of the pack, they will require the player to truly perform at a top notch level. Arena is a multitude of awareness, on-the-go strat, execution and mentality. It will take a while to accurately fit in since you'll no longer be sitting at the node guarding. Another thing I want to talk about is the USELESSNESS of Phase Walk. Phase Walk is good for saving you maybe like, once ever so often and it's pitiful at that because there's the chance it puts you out of LOS of your healer / guard. Something needs to be done. I never thought I'd be saying this, but I believe we have the worst 51 ability out of all other ACs. It was good for node guarding - but those node guarding days are over. Darkness at pure tank-for-tank levels is also utter trash. The spike issues in PvE are afflicting it in PvP. It can drop faster than a sage. Not to mention, I'm forced to run this spec in DPS gear for optimal levels of play against the best teams. I'm truth, I become some weird damage-debuffing-peeling-utility hybrid. Don't get me wrong, it's super cool, but also depressing that Darkness can frankly keep up or outdo Deception in sustainability. Deception is surprisingly not as good as we hyped it up to be. Lot of this is due to the Guard mechanic. Our opener burst is fine, but we quickly drop behind and when that happens, if we're not low slashing and setting up CCs otherwise - we become a gimped marauder. Like I said, to play a Sin at top notch levels in Arena is going to require a lot of the player. It's far more demanding on what you, as an Assassin / Shadow have to do compared to some of the other classes like Marauders. As far as Madness goes, I have not had too much extensive testing with it but from the tests gathered I don't think I need anything more to convince me otherwise. The spec is absolutely garbage and should be avoided at all costs. Keep in mind Phase Walk is bugged on the PTS. I usually avoid abusing that bug (no CD), so please do not base any P. Walk logic off this unintentional effect. Edited August 29, 2013 by Xinika
Evolixe Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 Decent post, Although I don't think we're any more vulnerable to stuns as many other classes and it should stay that way. With what we can do, there needs to be some backlash. You can't be amazing at everything since that would just be plainly OP.
Xinika Posted August 19, 2013 Author Posted August 19, 2013 Decent post, Although I don't think we're any more vulnerable to stuns as many other classes and it should stay that way. With what we can do, there needs to be some backlash. You can't be amazing at everything since that would just be plainly OP. I actually agree with what you're saying. I'd just like to see another melee class perform on the idealized level as Smash Mara. As it stands, they are durable, carry the MS buff, have consistent burst and CC to top it off.
cycao Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 Played around 10 games specced full madness...Would. Not. Recommend.
MasterFeign Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 Played around 10 games specced full madness...Would. Not. Recommend. I was going to try that for the sake of it as well. Looks like I won't need to, haha. But yeah I agree on the assessment, I've played a few days on the PTS so far, I've mostly been playing deception or tankassin with dps gear. With varying results (mostly due to team make up and skill and ally gear).
XyriusSES Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 I'm curious as to see which specs you were playing/testing for each listed stance you mentioned, if you wouldn't mind.
ekimmak Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 I actually agree with what you're saying. I'd just like to see another melee class perform on the idealized level as Smash Mara. As it stands, they are durable, carry the MS buff, have consistent burst and CC to top it off. So, you want another melee class to be dull and overplayed, with an overabundance of threads demanding for its nerf?
Evolixe Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 Tbh if they're going to change anything I'm afraid they'll change something about us that I like how it is right now. And we don't really need anything major. Hence I'd rather advocate no, or very small changes to the class.
Xinika Posted August 19, 2013 Author Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) So, you want another melee class to be dull and overplayed, with an overabundance of threads demanding for its nerf? No, no no no - just another melee class that compete against Warrior Dominance. very small changes to the class. It's all we're most likely to receive. Edited August 19, 2013 by Xinika
Evolixe Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 No, no no no - just another melee class that compete against Warrior Dominance. I think we could agree that it's a better idea to tone down warriors than to "buff" everyone up to their level.
Xinika Posted August 19, 2013 Author Posted August 19, 2013 I think we could agree that it's a better idea to tone down warriors than to "buff" everyone up to their level. Doesn't need to be buffed up to their level. Doesn't change the fact that our DPS specs still need buffs.
Evolixe Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 I honestly can't think of anything I would wish to be tuned up for PvP right now. I mean, I kill with utility and control, not so much with damage. Your video shows the same, not so much the damage as the low health lowslashes/stuns/switches with cc. etc etc.
ekimmak Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 (edited) No, no no no - just another melee class that compete against Warrior Dominance. RAGE dominance. From what I see of the forums, Annihilation suffers from lack of burst, Carnage is way too RNG dependent to be reliable (and is only kept around for the massive speed boost), vengeance is just too greatly outperformed by rage, and immortal has issues with holding threat on large groups (which is a PVE concern rather than PVP, but let it slide for now). Rage? They complain that they don't have any ST sustainability. I really think that they have bigger problems than that (Mainly the spec being extremely dull to play and skewed heavily towards weak target dominance). So yeah. Every spec has some issue that makes them less than optimal. It's when you start comparing the classes, things get a little confusing (and biased). edit: And besides, if someone is going to compete with Rage for PVP dominance, I really don't think it should be Assassins. These people have stealth, for crying out loud! At least with warriors, you can see it coming and prepare for when they enter 30m. What little PVP I've done in the last few months has not warmed me to giving stealth classes any edges, and that's being said by someone with a scoundrel, operative and assassin. Edited August 19, 2013 by ekimmak
Evolixe Posted August 19, 2013 Posted August 19, 2013 Keep in mind Phase Walk is bugged on the PTS. I usually avoid abusing that bug (no CD), so please do not base any P. Walk logic off this unintentional effect. Didn't even see this; Anyways, it shouldve been fixed like 3 days ago, the second day of pts being up it was fixed. Maybe they broke it again tho but I don't think so.
MasterFeign Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 I'm curious as to see which specs you were playing/testing for each listed stance you mentioned, if you wouldn't mind. When I was playing deception (note: I'm not the best in this spec, although it is fun): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bcZfrcRzGbRrbdzZcM.3 My tank stance dps gear skill tree is: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200rcroddfdGdkZcMZf.3 Regardless of spec, my gear stays the same, I use the following two things in all my gear: Apptitude 28x and Adept Enhancement 28x As well as overkill augments. I use a shield as well modded with the above mentioned, and power/strength related implants and earpiece.
Evolixe Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 Power Strength? I hope not. And using resolve augments you can skip 1 crit mod in full conq, just saying
MasterFeign Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 Power Strength? I hope not. And using resolve augments you can skip 1 crit mod in full conq, just saying Opps, I meant power/surge (they both start with S!). I decided not to use resolve augments because darkness wasn't a very "critty" spec (as it's intended for tanking. Instead just going for raw power. That being said, yes my crit rating does suffer (especially when I'm in deception stance). However it's not too bad, generally because I still get the usual crits with recklessness and the burst is enough to 1 vs 1 someone, without doing way too much voltaic slashes.
lordnathanial Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 So lets assume you are a slightly above average deception spec'd assassin...am I going to get completely rolled in Arenas? I have been debating trying out darkness for a bit of added survivability and am curious. Thanks in advance.
MasterFeign Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 If you pop force shroud at te wrong time or your initial burst gets healed, you'll be in a bit of a bad place. But being in stealth and another person stunning the tank does help. It's not so much the healing that can't be undone, but the guarding/taunting that becomes a nuisance. Say you have 1 tank jugg and 2 smash juggs, that's 3 taunts and 2 smashes. That stuff hurts.
lordnathanial Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 If you pop force shroud at te wrong time or your initial burst gets healed, you'll be in a bit of a bad place. But being in stealth and another person stunning the tank does help. It's not so much the healing that can't be undone, but the guarding/taunting that becomes a nuisance. Say you have 1 tank jugg and 2 smash juggs, that's 3 taunts and 2 smashes. That stuff hurts. That makes sense. Speaking of force shroud when do you fire yours off. I have been saving mine mostly for force cloak. Wont arena also call for better coordinated attacking as well? I see in this video and most of them I've watched where the teams are focusing and switching quickly between people to attack
cycao Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 That makes sense. Speaking of force shroud when do you fire yours off. I have been saving mine mostly for force cloak. Wont arena also call for better coordinated attacking as well? I see in this video and most of them I've watched where the teams are focusing and switching quickly between people to attack Yes arenas are all about focus fire and switching targets accordingly.
Pumpp Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 XInika, The problem is you are kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth here. On one hand stating Sin's have to play near flawless in order to stay competitive and to be on our toes at all times. However, your video shows a 95% win rate or roundabouts. I doubt seriously anyone will listen to your suggestions with that kind of win rate. If you, as an elite player, were unable to put up those kind of numbers then I would think Bioware would have to pay attention to your analysis. Now I completely agree with the problems you have listed but like I said, your team/personal win rate is working against you.
Hiltingp Posted August 20, 2013 Posted August 20, 2013 Been extensively testing my Sin in the new Arena mode over the weekend with mixed results. A direct heads up for anyone stepping into arena: You will be pushed to your utmost limits. Your finesse with this class will need to be spot on or you will fall. Arena is far more intense than Warzones. A simple mistake can cost you the entire game. Sins are no exception. We have to play out heart out to perform in comparison to other top tiered classes / teams. Warzones are far more forgiving than Arena. Darkness / KC + Utility + Decent Sustained Damage + Good Mitigation - Not good for actual Tanking - Suffers to Smash Damage Deception / Infiltration + Good Opening Burst + Low Slash is great for swaps / setups + Less A/E Damage Taken - Bad Sustained Damage - Low Survivability in stuns - Very easy to shutdown / kite - Lack of Utility Madness / Balance + Sever Force useful as a root for peels - Bad Damage - Horrendous Survivability - Very easy to shutdown - Stupendous Ramp-up time - Lack of Utility Sins are middle-pack tier in Arena. They are not bad and they are not that impressive. However, even being at middle of the pack, they will require the player to truly perform at a top notch level. Arena is a multitude of awareness, on-the-go strat, execution and mentality. It will take a while to accurately fit in since you'll no longer be sitting at the node guarding. Another thing I want to talk about is the USELESSNESS of Phase Walk. Phase Walk is good for saving you maybe like, once ever so often and it's pitiful at that because there's the chance it puts you out of LOS of your healer / guard. Something needs to be done. I never thought I'd be saying this, but I believe we have the worst 51 ability out of all other ACs. It was good for node guarding - but those node guarding days are over. Darkness at pure tank-for-tank levels is also utter trash. The spike issues in PvE are afflicting it in PvP. It can drop faster than a sage. Not to mention, I'm forced to run this spec in DPS gear for optimal levels of play against the best teams. I'm truth, I become some weird damage-debuffing-peeling-utility hybrid. Don't get me wrong, it's super cool, but also depressing that Darkness can frankly keep up or outdo Deception in sustainability. Deception is surprisingly not as good as we hyped it up to be. Lot of this is due to the Guard mechanic. Our opener burst is fine, but we quickly drop behind and when that happens, if we're not low slashing and setting up CCs otherwise - we become a gimped marauder. Like I said, to play a Sin at top notch levels in Arena is going to require a lot of the player. It's far more demanding on what you, as an Assassin / Shadow have to do compared to some of the other classes like Marauders. As far as Madness goes, I have not had too much extensive testing with it but from the tests gathered I don't think I need anything more to convince me otherwise. The spec is absolutely garbage and should be avoided at all costs. Keep in mind Phase Walk is bugged on the PTS. I usually avoid abusing that bug (no CD), so please do not base any P. Walk logic off this unintentional effect. + Good Opening Burst + Low Slash is great for swaps / setups + Less A/E Damage Taken - Bad Sustained Damage - Low Survivability in stuns - Very easy to shutdown / kite - Lack of Utility Full deception sin is sustained damage, what are you talking about? Low survivability in stuns - thats like...every class is low surv in stuns? Except for jugger maybe? Its not really easy to kite a proper sin, maybe when sin is some kind of hybrid spec. Saying that dec sin lacks utility is just....poor knowledge of the class.
Xinika Posted August 20, 2013 Author Posted August 20, 2013 (edited) So lets assume you are a slightly above average deception spec'd assassin...am I going to get completely rolled in Arenas? I have been debating trying out darkness for a bit of added survivability and am curious. Thanks in advance. You will do *okay*, but eventually you'll realize the flaws of the spec and why it's not top tier. XInika, The problem is you are kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth here. On one hand stating Sin's have to play near flawless in order to stay competitive and to be on our toes at all times. However, your video shows a 95% win rate or roundabouts. I doubt seriously anyone will listen to your suggestions with that kind of win rate. If you, as an elite player, were unable to put up those kind of numbers then I would think Bioware would have to pay attention to your analysis. Now I completely agree with the problems you have listed but like I said, your team/personal win rate is working against you. Should I post videos of me constantly losing and play bad so I can convince the devs that the class needs buffs? The reason I post my videos in such format is to give other Sins / Shadows hope. I don't want to go the route of desperation for a buff. Full deception sin is sustained damage, what are you talking about? Low survivability in stuns - thats like...every class is low surv in stuns? Except for jugger maybe? Its not really easy to kite a proper sin, maybe when sin is some kind of hybrid spec. Saying that dec sin lacks utility is just....poor knowledge of the class. - Full Deception is sustained Damage in Arena? Oh please, do show. - Low survivability in stuns because of their light armor, they can easily get globaled compared to say sages (barrier), juggs, or maras who both have high mitigation. - It's not easy to kite a Deception sin? Lightning Sorc is a direct counter to the spec. Good Mercs will global D. Sins. - DECEPTION Sin lacks utility. DARKNESS has utility. Show me the 'utility' Deception Sin has - Low Slash? That's utility? Edited August 20, 2013 by Xinika
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