Why do people equate arenas with mmo skill?

[DarthRaika]

While I believe arenas do require skill to be the best I don't see this as mmo skill.

 

The main things required to be the best in mmo play (outside of gear,premading,etc.) are awareness, targeting, timing, proper movement, and to a lesser extent reaction time. All of these get harder as the number of players goes up. In other words the skill gap gets bigger as more players enter a match. Positioning, not being a tab target, timing cds to burst down healers at the right time, tactical escapes and quickly getting back in the fight, etc. are all more important in larger matches than in smaller ones. Smaller matches are usually just 1 group fighting another group and just mixed together.

 

In matches with larger numbers of players then even a marked player can basically remain invisible while killing the other team. In small matches this is not the case. Now sure some people will come in and say they do in SWTOR and I say to them that I do as well. What I am talking about though is when the other team is better than yours by a fair margin. That is when skill matters. Skill doesn't matter when your team is better anyway or if the other team isn't trying to pressure you.

 

One thing that many people don't realize is that 1 player can actually make more of a difference in 20 v 20 than the player can in 4v4 or 8v8. Rift was great for demonstrating this. My rogue and mage got into many 15v15 or 20v20 matches where my team was down by a fair margin and I helped turn the match around. I knew others that did this too. However, if I joined a 5v5 match where my team was far worse then it was much harder for me to turn it around since my team would drop near instantly or if I went healer spec then they just wouldn't kill anyone.

 

Watch streams of 4v4. Positioning and awareness are not needed. You are only fighting 4 people. Now a high level of skill is required to be the best no doubt. It is just this skill is related more to fighting games than to mmo play. Sure it sounds fun and I will likely start looking into making my own team once 2.4 goes live but I just don't want more mmo's heading this way when I think they should be heading more towards 15+ v 15+ matches.

 

This is why I found guild wars 2 boring pretty quickly. The matches with both sides having decent teams were very skill based due to no gear disparity and dodges/etc. but the lack of skills and more fighting game type tactics got boring pretty fast for me when it was often 5v5. I improved that type of play and got to where I was pretty good at gw2 but it just didn't feel like mmo play. Also, if I am looking for that type of fun I go play one of my fps games.

 

It is just like how dueling is skillbased but this skill says little about your mmo skill. I have known many good duelists who I would never want on my team.

Edited August 18, 2013 by DarthRaika

[Zunayson]

The way 20 v 20 seems like you can make a difference is because you're not much of a target, so you can stay alive to destroy people easier.

[Gren-Aluren]

Not much different then two groups fighting over a node. It just gets rid of all the strategic elements to get to that point in the match. Considering the poor 8v8 map design there really only was one or two strats anyway.

 

Casuals want instant action. They don't care about the 1% of people who take PvP seriously.

 

Watch streams of 4v4. Positioning and awareness are not needed. You are only fighting 4 people. Now a high level of skill is required to be the best no doubt. It is just this skill is related more to fighting games than to mmo play. Sure it sounds fun and I will likely start looking into making my own team once 2.4 goes live but I just don't want more mmo's heading this way when I think they should be heading more towards 15+ v 15+ matches.

 

I watched a lot of streams. Positioning is important and it was very apparent. People were getting knocked into pits which made a huge difference. I seen a team who fought near posts and one of the team's healers utilized the post to LoS every time he was targeted. Picking where you will fight will make a huge difference making an ability like Smuggle priceless in arenas.

 

There wasn't much movement after the battle started but in time I believe more teams will use movement to push the fight on parts of the terrain that are more advantageous.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[foxmob]

The way 20 v 20 seems like you can make a difference is because you're not much of a target, so you can stay alive to destroy people easier.

 

you could say that about entire ACs. I don't disagree. just sayin....

[DarthRaika]

Not much different then two groups fighting over a node. It just gets rid of all the strategic elements to get to that point in the match. Considering the poor 8v8 map design there really only was one or two strats anyway.

 

Casuals want instant action. They don't care about the 1% of people who take PvP seriously.

 

 

 

I watched a lot of streams. Positioning is important and it was very apparent. People were getting knocked into pits which made a huge difference. I seen a team who fought near posts and one of the team's healers utilized the post to LoS every time he was targeted. Picking where you will fight will make a huge difference making an ability like Smuggle priceless in arenas.

 

There wasn't much movement after the battle started but in time I believe more teams will use movement to push the fight on parts of the terrain that are more advantageous.

 

Saying it was not needed was wrong of me and not what I meant. I meant it isn't needed as much. Knockbacks, etc. don't change due to the number of people in a match and so I wasn't including that in my positioning statement. By positioning I mainly meant being in the center of the action while not being a tab target and also being able to attack at full force while not being killed yourself even when marked. When it is 4v4 you aren't really too worried about avoiding being targeted. Also, los is very important for some classes in 4v4 but it is just as important in larger matches and really it is even harder to do in larger matches.

[Deviltreh]

While I believe arenas do require skill to be the best I don't see this as mmo skill.

 

The main things required to be the best in mmo play (outside of gear,premading,etc.) are awareness, targeting, timing, proper movement, and to a lesser extent reaction time. All of these get harder as the number of players goes up. In other words the skill gap gets bigger as more players enter a match. Positioning, not being a tab target, timing cds to burst down healers at the right time, tactical escapes and quickly getting back in the fight, etc. are all more important in larger matches than in smaller ones. Smaller matches are usually just 1 group fighting another group and just mixed together.

 

In matches with larger numbers of players then even a marked player can basically remain invisible while killing the other team. In small matches this is not the case. Now sure some people will come in and say they do in SWTOR and I say to them that I do as well. What I am talking about though is when the other team is better than yours by a fair margin. That is when skill matters. Skill doesn't matter when your team is better anyway or if the other team isn't trying to pressure you.

 

One thing that many people don't realize is that 1 player can actually make more of a difference in 20 v 20 than the player can in 4v4 or 8v8. Rift was great for demonstrating this. My rogue and mage got into many 15v15 or 20v20 matches where my team was down by a fair margin and I helped turn the match around. I knew others that did this too. However, if I joined a 5v5 match where my team was far worse then it was much harder for me to turn it around since my team would drop near instantly or if I went healer spec then they just wouldn't kill anyone.

 

Watch streams of 4v4. Positioning and awareness are not needed. You are only fighting 4 people. Now a high level of skill is required to be the best no doubt. It is just this skill is related more to fighting games than to mmo play. Sure it sounds fun and I will likely start looking into making my own team once 2.4 goes live but I just don't want more mmo's heading this way when I think they should be heading more towards 15+ v 15+ matches.

 

This is why I found guild wars 2 boring pretty quickly. The matches with both sides having decent teams were very skill based due to no gear disparity and dodges/etc. but the lack of skills and more fighting game type tactics got boring pretty fast for me when it was often 5v5. I improved that type of play and got to where I was pretty good at gw2 but it just didn't feel like mmo play. Also, if I am looking for that type of fun I go play one of my fps games.

 

It is just like how dueling is skillbased but this skill says little about your mmo skill. I have known many good duelists who I would never want on my team.

Skill in RBGS = everyone bursting the right target at the same time. That is basicly PvE compared with 3v3 arenas....

 

Ofcourse you have no idea about rated battlegrounds because you gibber about 15v15 or 20v20.

 

l2p noob

Edited August 18, 2013 by Deviltreh

[DarthRaika]

The way 20 v 20 seems like you can make a difference is because you're not much of a target, so you can stay alive to destroy people easier.

 

I have played mmos for many years and I used to be very hardcore (gear up fast/make best premades/lead pvp guild/etc.). I am not being ignorant. In Rift if my mage entered a match he had a 1 over his head instantly. I had many guardian friends and they all told me that. So it wasn't that I wasn't much of a target. I had friends who would joke about the Raika trains they would see in warfronts. That sounds like bragging and now I won't be taken seriously but that isn't what it is about. I don't play hardcore anymore and I look at that time not as something to brag about but as something that made my rl suffer.

 

Yes you can hide easier from 1 or 2 players but no you are not less of a target. In matches like that you are just as likely to have 2-3 people attacking you as you are to have 1 attacking you in these current 8v8 matches no matter who you are. In even matches without a ph you would be changing position constantly and staying hidden.

 

In even 5v5 matches my awareness required was very low to play near to the top of my abilities. However, in 15v15 I found that if I did my best to watch all players on the screen I would increase my effectiveness by a large amount.

 

Take swtor for example, I play at around 80-90% of my ability most of the time while spending more time watching tv than I do playing many of the matches that I play. I often even read the news or ibd on my 2nd monitor lol. I rarely rotate my camera and I still do better than most players most matches even without any datacrons and lacking gear.

 

In Rift that was not the case. If I didn't pay attention and rotate my camera all the time and watch what was going on I was around 50-60% as effective. Sure there are many beyond horrible players in all mmos and so I would still do pretty well but it was a very noticeable drop off. Saving cds and built up skills for that healer who drops below 50% for a couple seconds out of 20 enemies required a lot more awareness than the just spam attacks against 1 player that is usually what ppl do in swtor.

 

Again though, I am not saying arenas don't require skill as I think they will require a lot of skill I just don't see this as what mmo skill is and I worry that more games are going towards arena type play instead of larger numbers. If I am in the minority then my opinion doesn't matter I just am putting it out there.

[DarthRaika]

Skill in RBGS = everyone bursting the right target at the same time. That is basicly PvE compared with 3v3 arenas....

 

Ofcourse you have no idea about rated battlegrounds because you gibber about 15v15 or 20v20.

 

l2p noob

 

Lol at you. I have played mmos for many years and I know many types of gameplay. I also did rated in swtor early on and found it to be mostly a joke and once the level cap was raised I quit since I play rather casually now and don't gear up any of my 8 chars too much. You know nothing about me and I seriously doubt you are better than me. BTW I don't think rated in swtor was about skill and it seems most of the hardcores on this forum agree that swtor is a very easy to play game.

[Crawelc]

SWtoR has a lower skill cap than Uno. Arenas lowered the bar to pure tdm. Regs at least have a chance of getting one of the old maps now. So regs>rateds in terms of skill required. PVP+PVE>PVP cause the plus sign is in there.

[Ryvirath]

Herderp? I haven't seen a player come anywhere near any skill cap for any class. If skill cap is perfect execution, the best I've seen and played is around 80%. Just being the best at a class is pretty easy. Similarly being the best in the game isn't that hard. Actually reaching the much talked about 'skill cap' is so hypothetical it's impossible. You might have one game ever at the top of your class on perfect form that you could call skill capped. It's certainly not a state you exist in.

[Altheran]

While it's true that things like awareness becomes more difficult when the number of players increases, positioning and individual actions matter much less.

 

When it comes to mass PvP, what matters the most is output. Maximum AoE pressure and few single target bursts it's all what's needed to do mass murder, and the side who is annihilating the other side faster wins.

[Zunayson]

SWtoR has a lower skill cap than Uno. Arenas lowered the bar to pure tdm. Regs at least have a chance of getting one of the old maps now. So regs>rateds in terms of skill required. PVP+PVE>PVP cause the plus sign is in there.

 

Only if PVE is a positive real number.

 

So if you like... hate pve then PvP + PvE < PvP

 

 

Anyways, Arenas definitely takes more skill for killing than it does into objective based combat - a player in a 20v20 is only 5% of the team - not a huge asset. In 4v4, where there's 1 healer, 1 tank (usually), each player makes a substantial difference.

 

Objective based combat takes utility and makes it very useful to win. Arenas is definitely more of a DPS race, but it takes more skill in an arena to do the DPS race itself, than to do a DPS race in a larger scale combat, like 8v8s.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Zunayson

[Zunayson]

double post Edited August 18, 2013 by Zunayson

[DarthRaika]

My point relates to type of skill. The way I see MMO skill is as I described above. Arenas require more skill than objective type matches in certain ways. I am not arguing otherwise. This is the same as fps games require more skill in certain ways. You can be great at fps and suck at mmos or vice versa.

 

I like the idea of arenas and I will play them myself. My main question was why do people seem to think it is the end all of mmo skill? To me this is the same type of BS as when someone says fps games are the true test of skill. It is almost like a football player telling a basketball player that football requires way more skill.

 

This isn't meant to be a qq thread either as I support the addition of arenas it is just over the years since arenas became big in wow I see more and more people thinking that only arenas require skill. Along the same lines I always see people that suck in warzones tell people to fight them 1v1 which means little in relation to mmo skill.

[theUndead]

My point relates to type of skill. The way I see MMO skill is as I described above. Arenas require more skill than objective type matches in certain ways. I am not arguing otherwise. This is the same as fps games require more skill in certain ways. You can be great at fps and suck at mmos or vice versa.

 

I like the idea of arenas and I will play them myself. My main question was why do people seem to think it is the end all of mmo skill? To me this is the same type of BS as when someone says fps games are the true test of skill. It is almost like a football player telling a basketball player that football requires way more skill.

 

This isn't meant to be a qq thread either as I support the addition of arenas it is just over the years since arenas became big in wow I see more and more people thinking that only arenas require skill. Along the same lines I always see people that suck in warzones tell people to fight them 1v1 which means little in relation to mmo skill.

 

Would you mind actually defining mmo skill then? Is the fact I am competent in NIM raiding a trait in this "mmo skill"? You keep bringing up this "skill" in such a way that makes it sound that if you not do certain things you not being skillful at all. I don't understand and would like an explanation because as far as I can see I may not be the best but I do have some skills which could be referred to as mmo skill.

[Warshades]

He is talking about chaotic structure vs percision structure.

 

MMO is massive, its chaotic, its large scale. The objective being bringing harmony to chaos.

 

Arenas are more FPS being that they are predictable, and therefor its about precision timing, execution, communication.

 

so MMO skill relates to how you function as a part of greater goal while Arena skills relate to how precise you can achieve those skills in with a much smaller goal.

 

Better way of putting it.....Arenas are like playing with face cards, and trying to match 4 kings. MMO Skills is like playing with the full deck, much harder to pull out 4 kings.

[iDraxter]

He is talking about chaotic structure vs percision structure.

 

MMO is massive, its chaotic, its large scale. The objective being bringing harmony to chaos.

 

Arenas are more FPS being that they are predictable, and therefor its about precision timing, execution, communication.

 

so MMO skill relates to how you function as a part of greater goal while Arena skills relate to how precise you can achieve those skills in with a much smaller goal.

 

Better way of putting it.....Arenas are like playing with face cards, and trying to match 4 kings. MMO Skills is like playing with the full deck, much harder to pull out 4 kings.

So what? I`m tired of loosing because off bads that don`t play the objective, i`ll take the precision structure everytime atleast if i lose I`ll know they outplayed us, got a series of crits or some great CC chains but not because of some noob(s) screwing up.

Edited August 18, 2013 by iDraxter

[DariusCalera]

While it's true that things like awareness becomes more difficult when the number of players increases, positioning and individual actions matter much less.

 

When it comes to mass PvP, what matters the most is output. Maximum AoE pressure and few single target bursts it's all what's needed to do mass murder, and the side who is annihilating the other side faster wins.

 

It all matters even more in 4v4 matches. In 8v8 if you lose a guy, or two, the other can pick up the slack a bit till they get back. In the 4v4 losing a single player will be much more noticeable and harder to recover from.