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Is Crit still nerfed or is it more useful after the latest update?


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Posted

I've finally hit all 69s for my item mods (with a few 72s) but admittedly feel a little concerned about my critical chance being at about 15%. Power and strength look great from the sacrifice but as I resume the process of gearing up with 72s and eventually 75s, do I still have it right to not stack any crit for my combat sentinel?

 

Also...

 

Semi-related. It seems I can't get two people to ever agree about power vs strength so I'm currently at a 50/50 mix on my augs of each. I know there's not a huge difference to go all the way with one over the other so how do you guys feel about the split I'm doing?

Posted

For combat, no crit. For watchman, no crit. Also for focus, no crit. Basically, yeah, don't use it. Yet. Crit will become useful soon, especially for Focus, but it's still point-for-point behind power.

 

The power vs strength question is a more interesting one, since it's basically a question of what you're augmenting for. I can't actually speak to watchman, but I can say that strength augments are superior for both Focus and Combat, but only by a *tiny* hair. With Combat in full 72s, full strength vs full power augments is a difference of about 2 DPS, and with Focus it's a difference of about 7 DPS. It really has very, very little effect. Go with whichever you prefer.

Posted
Cool thanks KBN. I figured that such a small difference was probably the culprit behind nobody unanimously agreeing about one over the other. Will stick to non-crit mods and enhancements as well.
Posted
For combat, no crit. For watchman, no crit. Also for focus, no crit. Basically, yeah, don't use it. Yet. Crit will become useful soon, especially for Focus, but it's still point-for-point behind power.

 

The power vs strength question is a more interesting one, since it's basically a question of what you're augmenting for. I can't actually speak to watchman, but I can say that strength augments are superior for both Focus and Combat, but only by a *tiny* hair. With Combat in full 72s, full strength vs full power augments is a difference of about 2 DPS, and with Focus it's a difference of about 7 DPS. It really has very, very little effect. Go with whichever you prefer.

 

I am doing in every parse more with full power augments vs full strenght augments @ combat.

 

Also a little crit (395 rating) is superior to 0 crit rating for watchman. I read that from gorband's guide and it increased my dps by a good amount when switching between specs.

Posted
I am doing in every parse more with full power augments vs full strenght augments @ combat.

 

Also a little crit (395 rating) is superior to 0 crit rating for watchman. I read that from gorband's guide and it increased my dps by a good amount when switching between specs.

 

I agree on the Power vs Str issue. For a long time I steadfastly held to the math that Str was better but was just not getting near some of my friends so I switched and the difference was night and day. The issue with adding that crit into the mix, at least in my opinion, is there is no reason a Sentinel should only play Combat or Watchman. You should respec based on the fight and that means making sacrifices in terms of min/maxing for an individual set. Thats my two cents.

Posted
I am doing in every parse more with full power augments vs full strenght augments @ combat.

 

Also a little crit (395 rating) is superior to 0 crit rating for watchman. I read that from gorband's guide and it increased my dps by a good amount when switching between specs.

 

When last I checked oofalong's watchman spreadsheet, even in full 72s, 0 crit was still dramatically better than any-non-zero crit, even for watchman. You might occasionally get better results out of a crit build, but it will (on average) be lower than a power build. I also have spreadsheets in my hand for combat and focus, neither of which want any crit whatsoever.

Posted
When last I checked oofalong's watchman spreadsheet, even in full 72s, 0 crit was still dramatically better than any-non-zero crit, even for watchman. You might occasionally get better results out of a crit build, but it will (on average) be lower than a power build. I also have spreadsheets in my hand for combat and focus, neither of which want any crit whatsoever.

 

 

 

http://suckafish.enjin.com/forum/m/2482819/viewthread/6886226-31-vs-31a-theoritic-approach-to-perfection

 

 

think someone pulling off 2,8k at bosses is a trustable source

Posted
I am doing in every parse more with full power augments vs full strenght augments @ combat.

 

Also a little crit (395 rating) is superior to 0 crit rating for watchman. I read that from gorband's guide and it increased my dps by a good amount when switching between specs.

 

First off, I would not say 395 is a little crit rating; it is really quite a bit. It either means a ~30% reduction in Power.

 

When last I checked oofalong's watchman spreadsheet, even in full 72s, 0 crit was still dramatically better than any-non-zero crit, even for watchman. You might occasionally get better results out of a crit build, but it will (on average) be lower than a power build. I also have spreadsheets in my hand for combat and focus, neither of which want any crit whatsoever.

 

My model shows that each point of crit reduces DPS by ~0.125. For example with two Eviscerating crystals (Crit Rating of 82) and all else Power, I calculate less than 0.5% difference in DPS. I also recognize I may not do a great job of calculating resource procs from Burning Focus/Bloodlust.

Posted
I agree on the Power vs Str issue. For a long time I steadfastly held to the math that Str was better but was just not getting near some of my friends so I switched and the difference was night and day.

 

The problem is the difference should not be night and day.

 

Power contributes 0.23 to bonus damage, while Strength contributes 0.20. However, Strength is buffed by the Sith Inquisitor | Jedi Consular buff by 5%. Thus, the comparison becomes 0.23 vs. 0.21 (1.05 * 0.20 = 0.21). The increase in bonus damage is thus 0.02 per point of power. Considering Power Augments provide an extra 448 (32 * 14 = 448) Power, the increase to Bonus Damage is 8.96 (448 * 0.02 = 8.96). Our class buff boosts these both by 5% so we end up with a total of 9.408 more bonus damage from Power augments.

 

Next, Strength also increases crit %. These 448 points in strength contribute 1% to crit chance. Specifically from 2,349 strength to 2,797 based on full 72 gear and Nano-Infused Stim.

 

Thus, the true comparison becomes 9.408 more Bonus Damage vs. 1% more crit. My math shows Strength to be ever so slightly better even at the next tier of gear.

 

To be clear, my math shows a difference of 0.5% in favor of Strength, hence I recommended it. I admit I could be wrong, but I would not expect anymore than +/- 2% difference. I would not consider this a night and day difference. Any observed difference greater than this, I believe stems from luckier crits.

Posted
First off, I would not say 395 is a little crit rating; it is really quite a bit. It either means a ~30% reduction in Power.

 

Augelebt mixed sth. up, Gorband suggests 395 for Surge and Accuracy which is in line with what everyone says. In his guide on Suckafish's website he suggests 139 Crit, but in later posts in the same thread he states that more testing is needed. The last crit rating he used was 59. I asked him with how much crit he actually did the current NiM content, I will gladly post his answer here as soon as I get it.

Posted
I don't do calculations. I equip it go to the dummy and test it. I did 1id each comparing power to strength and I was always higher dpswise when using power, also on the dummy 5/5 parses. (middle tree)
Posted
Augelebt mixed sth. up, Gorband suggests 395 for Surge and Accuracy which is in line with what everyone says. In his guide on Suckafish's website he suggests 139 Crit, but in later posts in the same thread he states that more testing is needed. The last crit rating he used was 59. I asked him with how much crit he actually did the current NiM content, I will gladly post his answer here as soon as I get it.

 

Crit vs power is one of those questions that is *very* easily answered via theory crafting and very hard to answer definitively via testing. Honestly, if the spreadsheets are saying "no crit", then that's what you should go with. You're definitely going to see better results with high crit from time to time, but it's all RNG.

Posted
The problem is the difference should not be night and day.

 

Power contributes 0.23 to bonus damage, while Strength contributes 0.20. However, Strength is buffed by the Sith Inquisitor | Jedi Consular buff by 5%. Thus, the comparison becomes 0.23 vs. 0.21 (1.05 * 0.20 = 0.21). The increase in bonus damage is thus 0.02 per point of power. Considering Power Augments provide an extra 448 (32 * 14 = 448) Power, the increase to Bonus Damage is 8.96 (448 * 0.02 = 8.96). Our class buff boosts these both by 5% so we end up with a total of 9.408 more bonus damage from Power augments.

 

Next, Strength also increases crit %. These 448 points in strength contribute 1% to crit chance. Specifically from 2,349 strength to 2,797 based on full 72 gear and Nano-Infused Stim.

 

Thus, the true comparison becomes 9.408 more Bonus Damage vs. 1% more crit. My math shows Strength to be ever so slightly better even at the next tier of gear.

 

To be clear, my math shows a difference of 0.5% in favor of Strength, hence I recommended it. I admit I could be wrong, but I would not expect anymore than +/- 2% difference. I would not consider this a night and day difference. Any observed difference greater than this, I believe stems from luckier crits.

 

Perhaps I should have used less suggestive language as you may have read too much into my post. The difference ended up being about 50 DPS on average but it was a consistent change whereas my parses with pure str were much more variable. I apologize for over-stating the affect.

Posted
Crit vs power is one of those questions that is *very* easily answered via theory crafting and very hard to answer definitively via testing. Honestly, if the spreadsheets are saying "no crit", then that's what you should go with. You're definitely going to see better results with high crit from time to time, but it's all RNG.

 

I agree - and I disagree ;-) You should go power all the way for the best average DPS, no doubt about that. But if your raid group is very tight on DPS in an encounter it may make sense to gamble with crit and hope for that lucky try with very high DPS via crit luck that helps you beat a boss you couldn't have beaten with "steady" DPS. Now you could argue, the best lucky try is all power and crit luck, but higher crit plus crit luck beats that in my experience.

 

Mind you that this argument is heavily dependent on the other three DPS you're playing with and whether they are more the steady type themselves (e.g. Marksmen) or proc and thus luck dependent (Sages and such)...

Posted

^what he said

While you can go to the dummy and get higher parses with crit, crit puts you into a more rng-dependant situation, same for strength since what makes it better is the added crit chance, while strength is mathematically better it will make your numbers fluctuate more so you will get more consistent numbers with power instead of strength.

 

In the end, our gear tier is too low right now which means that it is pretty much a choice between wanting to gamble or getting consistent numbers, and the difference will not be huge, when the gear tier gets higher the budget will probably allow you to get enough crit so that it wont be a gamble anymore

Posted (edited)
I agree - and I disagree ;-) You should go power all the way for the best average DPS, no doubt about that. But if your raid group is very tight on DPS in an encounter it may make sense to gamble with crit and hope for that lucky try with very high DPS via crit luck that helps you beat a boss you couldn't have beaten with "steady" DPS. Now you could argue, the best lucky try is all power and crit luck, but higher crit plus crit luck beats that in my experience.

 

This is true. However, there are no fights currently in the game which are that tight. Not since Dread Guard was nerfed. TfB is the closest, but because it's also one of the longest (second to NiM Styrak), it falls under the "better average is better" category.

 

It's also worth remembering that a full power build that gets lucky is going to have a lot more DPS than a full crit build that gets lucky, since you can still hit unusually high crit rates even going full power. :-)

Edited by KeyboardNinja
Posted

I don't know if you theory crafters got it right with watchman, I'm seeing significant dps loss replacing crit mods with power, although I could do with a few more bits I'm finding 24% crit to be a nice sweet spot. If I replace one piece with power mods and drop down to 22% I seem to lose around 50 DPS on average off my parses despite the numbers saying power should be better.

 

I have a feeling the actual skill tree comes into play here with Juyo mastery and it's 3% more likely to crit with burn effects per tick, going by what the tooltip says I'm assuming this is actually based on what your current crit chance is... not a static 3% crit added per tick?

Posted

KNJ does indeed have, as was stated above, "Ninja senses":

 

Hey Sorcs!

 

(...)

 

The Critical Rating stat is currently adjusted to a level that grants a critical chance with which we are not completely satisfied, and this means that some specializations lacking a built-in auto-crit are at a disadvantage, while specializations like Madness and Corruption that gain utilities and advantages when they critically hit are at an even bigger disadvantage. We will be working to rectify this issue with the Critical Rating stat in the future, and that should alleviate some issues for Madness, Corruption, and many other specializations within the game.

 

 

That's part of an answer to one of the three Class Rep's questions regarding Sages/Sorcerers.

 

I do hope that the actual return of Crit Percentage for points spent in Crit Rating will be increased to a level that makes balancing Crit and Power the same challenge it used to be. Determining the ideal ratio of Crit and Power should not only be class specific but should depend on the specc you play, maybe even depend on your build (e.g. Insight yes/no or 2/3 and such). It just adds another level of expertise and individualization to the game imo...

Posted
I don't know if you theory crafters got it right with watchman, I'm seeing significant dps loss replacing crit mods with power, although I could do with a few more bits I'm finding 24% crit to be a nice sweet spot. If I replace one piece with power mods and drop down to 22% I seem to lose around 50 DPS on average off my parses despite the numbers saying power should be better.

 

I have a feeling the actual skill tree comes into play here with Juyo mastery and it's 3% more likely to crit with burn effects per tick, going by what the tooltip says I'm assuming this is actually based on what your current crit chance is... not a static 3% crit added per tick?

 

I am not sure of your current gear, but 24% force crit rating should be achievable with 0 crit rating. While it may be that a modest amount of crit helps, I would suggest the the 50 DPS variance you observe is due to one of the following factors:

 

  • More favorable crits - as in more MH crits on Master Strike and Merciless Slash
  • More opportune procs of Cauterize
  • Better play

 

In other words, it is incredibly difficult to draw conclusions on a sample size of 5-10 parses when there are so many other variables in play.

 

 

Juyo forms boosts the DoT crit rate by 3% per stack of Juyo. Thus, with 6 stacks you will have +18% to your DoT crits; this is in addition to your base force crit chance of ~24%. In other words, your effective DoT crit chance should be somewhere around 42% ignoring Zen.

Posted
KNJ does indeed have, as was stated above, "Ninja senses":

 

 

 

That's part of an answer to one of the three Class Rep's questions regarding Sages/Sorcerers.

 

I do hope that the actual return of Crit Percentage for points spent in Crit Rating will be increased to a level that makes balancing Crit and Power the same challenge it used to be. Determining the ideal ratio of Crit and Power should not only be class specific but should depend on the specc you play, maybe even depend on your build (e.g. Insight yes/no or 2/3 and such). It just adds another level of expertise and individualization to the game imo...

 

To be honest that's gonna happen on its own given some time as our gear gets better and better. I think the reason they said that was because a lot of people don't realise this and they simply wanted to assure people that crit will be worth using again soon. I highly doubt they will actually change the returns from crit, as again, they don't have to.

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