This is why you don't follow stealthies to the offnode

[JP_Legatus]

http://www.twitch.tv/plajje/c/2731540

 

Forgive the language, I have a natural potty mouth and this was an abnormal day I make a sudden angry outburst because I see the defender walking over and I immediately know what has happened.

 

The basic rundown:

I had already done a whirlwind-cap attempt on this guy about 60s-70s earlier and he broke it, preventing the cap. I knew his breaker was on cd since the breakers are 90-120s and the whirlwind is a 60s cd. I see his team leave and after coming out of the box immediately go back to that guy who has no business guarding on a commando with no breaker and no help. It's almost a guaranteed cap, until... along comes the happy-go-lucky marauder who is "helping" me get the other door. I don't have anything against this particular marauder, but I needed a good example of why this type of play is bad. Not only did he bring extra defense, he actually broke the whirlwind as well. I know, nobody is perfect and everyone makes mistakes now and again. But there just isn't any reason for the marauder to be there.

 

TLDR - leave the offnode cap attempts to the stealthies. PLEASE. You aren't helping by going over there on your sniper or marauder or juggernaut or whatever non-stealth class you're playing. You're MUCH, MUCH more helpful by staying in the big battle and trying to catch leavers exiting the main fight.

Edited August 11, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[platinumruggo]

Wow that's pretty messed up, gotta love good ol helpers though.

[SajPl]

You know why I hate stealth heroes ? Because the stealth heroes go to the off-nodes in Novarre and Alderaan, leaving you outnumbered at mid and in both warzones the off-nodes are harder to hold since the enemy can reinforce them faster, thus they are easier to loose thus you quite often end up loosing it anyway.

The better type of stealth hero is the one that keeps going to the off-node, looses the 1 on 1 to the defender and keeps doing it for the whole game:rak_01::rak_01:.

[Zunayson]

You know why I hate stealth heroes ? Because the stealth heroes go to the off-nodes in Novarre and Alderaan, leaving you outnumbered at mid and in both warzones the off-nodes are harder to hold since the enemy can reinforce them faster, thus they are easier to loose thus you quite often end up loosing it anyway.

The better type of stealth hero is the one that keeps going to the off-node, looses the 1 on 1 to the defender and keeps doing it for the whole game:rak_01::rak_01:.

 

so, you don't want to:

• control an offnode, giving you the small boost of points you need to win
  
• Divert the enemy's attention to the offnode, making you outnumber them at mid, and capping mid
  
• Win.
  

 

Edited August 11, 2013 by Zunayson

[JP_Legatus]

You know why I hate stealth heroes ? Because the stealth heroes go to the off-nodes in Novarre and Alderaan, leaving you outnumbered at mid and in both warzones the off-nodes are harder to hold since the enemy can reinforce them faster, thus they are easier to loose thus you quite often end up loosing it anyway.

The better type of stealth hero is the one that keeps going to the off-node, looses the 1 on 1 to the defender and keeps doing it for the whole game:rak_01::rak_01:.

 

0/10 troll points

 

Not only is the strategic value wrong, the logic is wrong as well. Mid is the fastest node to reinforce in civil thus if you are going to be attacking one at all, it should be the side nodes since you are more likely to SUCCEED IN GETTING IT. I realize this is a recent change but it's only novarre that is easier for the defending team to reinforce and even then, you're still much more likely to get 1 mistake from 1 guy at an offnode than 7 people all making mistakes at the same time in mid, regardless of how long you can hold it. You can always make a run at mid later when everyone is at the off node.

 

Regardless of whether you are winning or losing in mid there is only 2 outcomes of this scenario:

1. The defender calls for help and the defending team sends at least 1 guy to the offnode; no loss of manpower

2. The defender doesn't call for help in which case eventually you get the node

 

If either of these scenarios doesn't work out as described then somebody did something ELSE that was wrong, not related to the plan to go to the offnode which is a strategically sound plan.

 

Also idk why I am up this late it'd really be nice if I could sleep

Edited August 11, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Pathlight-]

0/10 troll points

 

Not only is the strategic value wrong, the logic is wrong as well. Mid is the fastest node to reinforce in civil thus if you are going to be attacking one at all, it should be the side nodes since you are more likely to SUCCEED IN GETTING IT. I realize this is a recent change but it's only novarre that is easier for the defending team to reinforce and even then, you're still much more likely to get 1 mistake from 1 guy at an offnode than 7 people all making mistakes at the same time in mid, regardless of how long you can hold it. You can always make a run at mid later when everyone is at the off node.

 

Regardless of whether you are winning or losing in mid there is only 2 outcomes of this scenario:

1. The defender calls for help and the defending team sends at least 1 guy to the offnode; no loss of manpower

2. The defender doesn't call for help in which case eventually you get the node

 

If either of these scenarios doesn't work out as described then somebody did something ELSE that was wrong, not related to the plan to go to the offnode which is a strategically sound plan.

 

Also idk why I am up this late it'd really be nice if I could sleep

 

This. SajPl has no idea what he's talking about.

[Smuglebunny]

This is getting offtopic.

 

If you aren't stealth, and you see stealth going for the off node, DONT follow them. That's all.

 

IF you are stealth and you cant reliably solo gank the node, don't try more than once...or twice..

[JudgeNot]

This is getting offtopic.

 

If you aren't stealth, and you see stealth going for the off node, DONT follow them. That's all.

 

IF you are stealth and you cant reliably solo gank the node, don't try more than once...or twice..

 

This right here is the problem. As I play both a stealth and couple other classes, I can see why someone would go and help you even if they are not stealth. The key part is you should only attempt a cap once, then if unsuccessful, get back to the main fight. Unfortunately, quite often a stealth will perpetually try to cap a node and never succeed frustrating the rest of the group. I can't say what happened in your particular instance but I bet it wasn't the first attempt and the mara got irritated. Also, sometimes you ignorant people forget it's a PUG, meaning not everyone is experienced and worse yet NO ONE is on TS/Vent/Mumble communicating with each other. If you really want to blame someone, I'd focus fire BW for failing at RWZs, which in case you have forgotten, is still in "pre season." Most these threads with people QQing are really just frustration for a lack of competitive pvp, which unfortunately, can only be fixed by BW. You can yell at people all day long but noobs or w/e you want to call them will ALWAYS be in PUGs trying to gear up.

[DariusCalera]

 

Regardless of whether you are winning or losing in mid there is only 2 outcomes of this scenario:

1. The defender calls for help and the defending team sends at least 1 guy to the offnode; no loss of manpower

2. The defender doesn't call for help in which case eventually you get the node

 

Or, heaven forbid, the person defending the node isn't a noob and positions themselves so that even if you CC him/her for 8 seconds that they can eat the CC without using their breaker and still keep you from capping the node.

[JP_Legatus]

Or, heaven forbid, the person defending the node isn't a noob and positions themselves so that even if you CC him/her for 8 seconds that they can eat the CC without using their breaker and still keep you from capping the node.

 

There's no scenario where the defender doesn't call for assistance and I don't eventually cap the node. Capping nodes is always a race against time in favor of the attacking party. Yes I said attacking party. The reason it SEEMS like defending favors the defending party is because:

1. good defenders can delay for a really long time under the right circumstances

2. help usually arrives before "timer" runs out

 

In any case, if help doesn't eventually arrive the defender will run out of cooldowns to use, especially if they are defending improperly or the attacker is particularly good. It may take upward of several minutes if the defender is playing right, but the "timer" or in otherwords his cooldowns will eventually run out.

The other side of this coin is that while a defender will be blowing cooldowns on delaying the cap (which he should) he won't have any left to fight with, so even if you screw up the cap several times the defender has the disadvantage of playing without a breaker, without shroud, without combat stealth, or w/e that he would normally have in a duel.

 

TLDR: the defender has to call for help or lose the node. And that's without assuming there could be another stealthy nearby on the attacker team that the defender doesn't know about.

Edited August 11, 2013 by JP_Legatus

[Gren-Aluren]

Can't tell you how many times I've missed a cap because someone attacked someone I flash banged. The worst time was when I forced two enemies to use their stun breaker and then flashed both of them. Along comes someone who attacks them when I'm 3 seconds into a cap on Hypergate.

[falcon_Xtreme]

There's no scenario where the defender doesn't call for assistance and I don't eventually cap the node. Capping nodes is always a race against time in favor of the attacking party. Yes I said attacking party. The reason it SEEMS like defending favors the defending party is because:

1. good defenders can delay for a really long time under the right circumstances

2. help usually arrives before "timer" runs out

 

In any case, if help doesn't eventually arrive the defender will run out of cooldowns to use, especially if they are defending improperly or the attacker is particularly good. It may take upward of several minutes if the defender is playing right, but the "timer" or in otherwords his cooldowns will eventually run out.

The other side of this coin is that while a defender will be blowing cooldowns on delaying the cap (which he should) he won't have any left to fight with, so even if you screw up the cap several times the defender has the disadvantage of playing without a breaker, without shroud, without combat stealth, or w/e that he would normally have in a duel.

 

TLDR: the defender has to call for help or lose the node. And that's without assuming there could be another stealthy nearby on the attacker team that the defender doesn't know about.

 

i like the way you think.

 

its this type of logic that won us a stalemate civil war just the other night. we were losing by 10-20 points with one side node each it was going to be a loss. i knew their one powertech defender had used all his cd's holding me off the last 3-4 times attempts. ( to his credit he called incs) . i called for our solo defender to join me in the dps, with no resolve fills so i could unload my scoundrel rotation. he came under the tunnel, we burst him down, we went to cap they over rotated we got mid. we win.

 

as for the op and the vid.. yeah dude that frustrates the crap outta me too, the foul language was completely understandable, and tbh in the low end of the nerdrage scale

Edited August 12, 2013 by falcon_Xtreme

[Joesixxpack]

Argghh!

 

When there's a ninja on the team I know is good at their craft I say at start "Do not follow the stealth"

Maybe I shouldn't, because it seems 1 or 2 always do then wait for a mezz to break with their basic attack.

[Raansu]

This **** is a huge pet peeve of mine. I hate it when I play my stealther and people follow me. I get even more pissed when they start attacking the player I mez'd...I've lost count of how many times I've missed out on a stealth cap because someone wanted to "help" me. Not only are they not stealthed thus bringing in more defenders, but nine times out of ten they break the mez of the enemy player.

 

Of course its not always bad. If that marauder had any brains he would of lept to the guy running towards the door and rooted him/choked him.

[SajPl]

so, you don't want to:

• control an offnode, giving you the small boost of points you need to win
  
• Divert the enemy's attention to the offnode, making you outnumber them at mid, and capping mid
  
• Win.
  

 

 

So you go to the offnode leaving your team outnumbered at mid?

So you go to the offnode giving the enemy an easier time taking your default node because your team is outnumbered mid and might not be able to send help if it is being attacked?

So you let your team get wiped at mid because you have left them outnumbered so they can quickly divert their attention to the offnode and kill you?

:rak_02:

Edited August 12, 2013 by SajPl

[MerriwxOne]

O man...I feel your pain my stealthy brethren, but because this will happen again and again I'd like to offer you some advice. We don't want you get a heart attack so....

1. Use him/her as bait

a. If they are killing the enemy...GREAT....cap

b. If they are losing, and can keep the attention long enough still...cap

c. If they are losing, and get destroyed...don't help...sit back watch them die, and when they say..."hey... why didn't you help me"...you can then hit them with any wisdom of why you don't follow STEALTH.

 

2. If #1 is C. Wait until the enemy fills confident that he has defended his node, Inc call canceled(hopefully), has no DEF CD's, and kill him and take it.

 

Usually in PUG games 1. b or c happens often.

[Twin]

So you go to the offnode leaving your team outnumbered at mid?

So you go to the offnode giving the enemy an easier time taking your default node because your team is outnumbered mid and might not be able to send help if it is being attacked?

So you let your team get wiped at mid because you have left them outnumbered so they can quickly divert their attention to the offnode and kill you?

:rak_02:

 

Get real. More often then not the opposite team sends 2+ from start to their node in PUGs. If they dont, a good stealther often caps the node. If they have 2 defenders, a good stealther can keep em busy for quite a while possibly attracting another player(s) to come eliminate the threat in which case they will be outnumbered at mid.

 

It's quite easy:

• One defender, stealther caps the node or in a worst case senario, dies and joins the fight at mid.
  
• The 1 defender usually calls for help, and often more then 1 player respond, leaving their team outnumbered at mid.
  
• If two defenders, stealther keeps them busy and in a worst case scenario you have equal numbers at mid.
  

 

In the end, as long as the stealther either caps or is keeping 2+ players busy at their node, it's positive. If he fails and dies against a solo guard, he will shortly be at mid again. If the team manages to lose mid during that small timeframe, it's certinatly not the stealthers fault.

[Joesixxpack]

So you go to the offnode leaving your team outnumbered at mid?

So you go to the offnode giving the enemy an easier time taking your default node because your team is outnumbered mid and might not be able to send help if it is being attacked?

So you let your team get wiped at mid because you have left them outnumbered so they can quickly divert their attention to the offnode and kill you?

:rak_02:

 

Varies by match conditions, that guy's thoughts make sense for some, yours for others. There aren't any 100% principles with this stuff.

[sithBracer]

So you go to the offnode leaving your team outnumbered at mid?

 

One person leaving should not affect the outcome of mid, especially if he leaves for a purpose. I have held off and have been held off from capping when outnumbered many times. Capping takes a certain amount of seconds while stopping a cap is instant. The defenders have the advantage. If the other teams kills you fast enough to cap before the stealther can do anything on the offnode, then your team has a lot more problems than one person leaving.

 

In reality he will either cap the node causing half the team to leave the middle or cause the offnode defender to call out which will usually result in 2 or 3 of the other team leaving the middle. Either way the advantage is yours.

 

 

So you go to the offnode giving the enemy an easier time taking your default node because your team is outnumbered mid and might not be able to send help if it is being attacked?

 

So you let your team get wiped at mid because you have left them outnumbered so they can quickly divert their attention to the offnode and kill you?

:rak_02:

 

If your team cannot defend 1 man down for a few minutes then you have a lot more problems than one person leaving.

[Mesagoe]

I totally agree with this thread.