Commando Rep 3 Questions Discussion

[cashogy_reborn]

So im sat here thinking. no one mentioned the overal lack of aoe healing made available in combat medic spec. All 3 raid groups in our guild is either running dual sage, or sage scoundrel setups for 8 mans purely because having a commando takes too high a toll on other healer when all he is really viable for is tank healing or solo target healing.

 

I realise it shouldn't be as good as the sage aoe however at least make them a bit more viable.....

 

Well I think that allowing Trauma Probe to be put on multiple targets would help w/ the AOE healing. And with better ammo management, it would be a little easier to heal multiple people at once. There are things we can do to make our single target healing better that will carry over to improving our ability to heal group wide.

[Stavroz]

Well I think that allowing Trauma Probe to be put on multiple targets would help w/ the AOE healing. And with better ammo management, it would be a little easier to heal multiple people at once. There are things we can do to make our single target healing better that will carry over to improving our ability to heal group wide.

 

How bout giving bacta infusion a secondary effect like all friendly targets within 10 of target healed receive 50% of the effect of bacta infusion.

In addition give kolto bomb 1 extra tick.

Would this solve group healing?

[oaceen]

How bout giving bacta infusion a secondary effect like all friendly targets within 10 of target healed receive 50% of the effect of bacta infusion.

In addition give kolto bomb 1 extra tick.

Would this solve group healing?

 

honestly, allowing trauma probe to go on multiple targets would be way more than we would ever need for aoe healing (imo)

 

 

 

the only change i would like for bacta infusion is allowing it to build 3 charges like hammershot

 

and get rid of the stupid 'charge' for bonus healing/damage. just take away the bonus from supercharge and make the cell give a flat 3% at all times, whether it's charged or not, and the ability to build charges while supercharged.

that way, we don't have peaks and troughs in healing efficiency and can use supercharge whenever we want really.

 

other balances could be changed to it i suppose (like duration or whatever), but it's really clear that the super charge thing was a late addition to the class since it doesn't really mesh well with the other mechanics.

Edited August 31, 2013 by oaceen

[Gnimish]

Frontline medic. Is utterly useless. If anything this needs to be addressed. Im okay with are aoe healing being weaker if our single target healing was better. It is better than sage or scroundel. But you can replace a commandos single target healing with a sage, but you can't replace a sages aoe healing with a commando. Doesn't seem right. With so many fights that are aoe damage heavy is single target healing really that important? I find raiding that a dps are dying way more then tanks, yes is probably dps fault but also sucks as a commando. You can heal that dps back up and hope your tank doesnt take some spike damage and kill your ammo which will kill your healing for next 30 seconds. For pvp we are just way way to easy to shut down. if you got a dps on your tank and a dps on you specially if they are smashers and you are to close together. you cant even come close to keeping yourself and tank alive. then once your tank is dead. you are just done for, least thats what happened in arenas when i was testing. way to intruppetable . some of my thoughts.

 

 

On dps i am happy where gunnery is, only thing i find about gunnery is how boring it can be, spamming grav round for curtain of fire proc while HIB and demo are on CD. I really like assualt playstyle just seems to be lacking compared to gunnery.

[windogie]

Trauma probe as a multi target would still be weaker than slow release medpack and bubble simply just on the way it works it ticks just about as much as slow release medpack but only works when being hit where as if the enemy stops hitting the target slow release medpack still ticks because it is a HoT. It is weaker than bubble because bubble is a absorb not a heal and can absorb up to 8k up front damage while the healer piles on heals elsewhere. All in all I think it would be a step closer to operative and sorc healing but would probably result in a nerf to trauma probe. Also the effectiveness of us as AOE healers is diminished by how our energy system works.

[Gyronamics]

Trauma probe is not a heal.

 

It causes incoming damage to be weakened due to its reactive healing but will not heal someone up or prevent damage from happening.

 

Technically if someone is taking extremely weak damage it can heal someone up but it's unlikely since said damage would have to be weaker than a default attack.

 

It is more easily classified as a shield and frankly it should be multi target but is unlikely to be allowed since that would break the game!1!!1 by allowing sage bubble, scoundrel SRM and commando trauma probe to all be stacked on multiple players.

 

Instead of the current situation where merely bubble and srm can be stacked and commando is the useless bugger who can't deal with multiple players as well because of the limit on his ability.

 

Mind you anyone recall the "justification" for commandos having NO interrupt at all on game release.

 

A similar turn on trauma probe being single target would be welcome.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Gyronamics

[cashogy_reborn]

 

Mind you anyone recall the "justification" for commandos having NO interrupt at all on game release.

 

 

IIRC, they said that we didnt have an interrupt b/c we had the best damage output in the game.... LOL

[ToMyMa]

IIRC, they said that we didnt have an interrupt b/c we had the best damage output in the game.... LOL

 

*coughheal2fullcough*

[Gyronamics]

I think the trauma probe limit is a good angle to look at for combat medics.

[oaceen]

I think the trauma probe limit is a good angle to look at for combat medics.

 

cashogy already said healing is not a concern

[Gyronamics]

Then I'm one of those rebels who wants to have a different opinion

[SpaniardInfinity]

Trauma probe is not a heal.

 

It causes incoming damage to be weakened due to its reactive healing but will not heal someone up or prevent damage from happening.

 

Technically if someone is taking extremely weak damage it can heal someone up but it's unlikely since said damage would have to be weaker than a default attack.

 

It is more easily classified as a shield and frankly it should be multi target but is unlikely to be allowed since that would break the game!1!!1 by allowing sage bubble, scoundrel SRM and commando trauma probe to all be stacked on multiple players.

 

Instead of the current situation where merely bubble and srm can be stacked and commando is the useless bugger who can't deal with multiple players as well because of the limit on his ability.

 

Mind you anyone recall the "justification" for commandos having NO interrupt at all on game release.

 

A similar turn on trauma probe being single target would be welcome.

 

I love using Trauma Probe as a yard stick for figuring out what kind of damage a mob or a player is dealing.

 

Significantly outpacing/completely ignoring it? High DPS

Outpacing but not by much? Average DPS, only a problem if you ignore it too long.

Can't break even on it? Look at him, he thinks he's people!

 

But yeah. Trauma Probe having a 1 player limit made sense at launch. It cost nothing and didn't really do enough healing to be worthy of a cost, anyway. Then they made it worth 2-ammo (1/6 of the resource) and kept the cap and healing done. The thing still heals for less than a Hammershot on each tick in PVP and in my mutt PVE gear it just barely does more than Hammershot (neglecting crits). Probe Medic was a great talent to add, but it still doesn't make Trauma Probe some big heal. To be honest, if it weren't for the fact that there is literally nothing better in the tree to take, I probably wouldn't take it at all. Having it around is mostly placebo.

 

And then there is Frontline Medic, which should just be changed to "Increases the number of Trauma Probes that may be active at one time by 1/2" and then swapped with Probe Medic in the tree. As it stands right now, the talent is absolutely worthless in PVE and situationally useful in PVP, but only in a 1v1 or at most 1v2 -- beyond that the damage just eclipses Frontline Medic.

 

With the exception of Potent Medicine and Preventive Medicine, everything above Tier 5 in the Combat Medic tree is lackluster and has zero synergy. Bacta Infusion is a great skill, but like pretty much every ability Commando has, the cooldown diminishes its value. You should never not take it, but it leaves something to be desired.

Edited September 1, 2013 by SpaniardInfinity

[oaceen]

Then I'm one of those rebels who wants to have a different opinion

 

i don't think you're a rebel in that, honestly.

[cashogy_reborn]

cashogy already said healing is not a concern

 

Please point me to the post where I said that.....

[PhatMcMuffins]

I don't remember Cashogy ever saying healing isn't a concern. I certainly hope it is. Both merc and mando need to commit one question each to it, IMO. Gunnery/arsenal works well. I know pyro is a fluff damage dealer that's all but a joke, but our "specialty" tree in CM/Bodygaurd needs serious help.

[oaceen]

I don't remember Cashogy ever saying healing isn't a concern.

 

starts here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6694482#post6694482 and continues for a few more posts.

 

relevant parts quoted below.

 

When I ask our questions they will have nothing to do with class survivability. That isnt our major performance problem; its energy management, general utility/cooldown lengths, and Assault.

not healing?

What about healing?

 

 

so by 'not a concern' i should have clarified 'not a top concern' ie: that it wasn't going to be one the top 3 questions, unless maybe as referenced in ammo management along with gunnery. the salient point is i don't think he's going to ask about trauma probe, so we should probably see if odawgg will ask about it

Edited September 2, 2013 by oaceen

[cashogy_reborn]

starts here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6694482#post6694482 and continues for a few more posts.

 

relevant parts quoted below.

 

 

 

 

so by 'not a concern' i should have clarified 'not a top concern' ie: that it wasn't going to be one the top 3 questions.

 

And how exactly is healing left out of utility and energy management?

 

Your reply said "not healing?", so I asked "What about healing?" b/c you seemed to be looking for something specific. To which you never replied.....

 

*NOWHERE* have I said that Combat Medic is fine. You are either stupid, ignorant, or just have blind hatred for me. I do not appreciate you attempting to put words into my mouth, or your attempts to extrapolate details from my posts which I have no intention of conveying.

 

I have been highly outspoken about how Combat Medic needs its skill tree streamlined and to have the useless boxes removed/changed, among other things. It *will* be a part of the questions I ask; I have been very, very clear about that. To what extent, I dont know yet. That depends on the Merc questions/responses.

 

I have also been clear about the fact I will not ask for increases in either damage or healing output. That is simply encouraging a dev response along the lines of "you have heal to full".

 

 

When I post things, I mean exactly what I post, and nothing more. Oh, and really good job not reading the entire rest of the post which you quoted... http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6696016&postcount=107

 

What about healing?

 

If I ask a question having to with healing output, the devs are almost guaranteed to respond "this is intended b/c Mando/Merc has exceptional RDPS off-damage ability. Which is true.

 

Commando healing has the most unforgiving energy management of the 3 healing ACs. It also has the same problem with mobility and utility cd length that the DPS specs have.

 

 

 

Im not going to be asking for an increase in output of either DPS or Heals. I understand why our DPS output is slightly less than Sents/Slingers. And I think the devs reasoning holds true for us even moreso than with Sorc/Sage; our off-healing in DPS spec is actually good (Kolto Bomb is awesome). Likewise, our HPS is slightly lower b/c we have exceptional off-damage ability (in comparison w/ the other healing specs anyways). This also means I wont be asking for new offensive/defensive cooldowns either. As much as I would like an offensive cooldown (I have no idea why we dont have one to begin with, but w/e), I dont want to give devs ammo to say "your damage is fine, l2p".

 

Our biggest problems are a lot of the general mechanics of the class. Energy management is just generally lacking and dependent on RNG in most cases, our most important utility cooldowns are on unreasonably long cooldowns (TO and RP >60s for no discernable reason).

 

However, I think I already made that clear so I really dont feel like typing it all out again. After the Mercenary questions are responded to, I will start to work on the actual rough drafts for our questions. That about 4 weeks away tho I think.

 

If you have a problem with me, this is not the thread to hash it out in. I will not respond to this topic within this thread again.

Edited September 2, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[Gyronamics]

No one has mentioned anything drastically new, this is all about looking at what we have and deciding on issues good enough to make a question out of.

 

 

We have 6 questions across the forum, I'm pretty sure something about healing can be mentioned in there.

[oaceen]

And how exactly is healing left out of utility and energy management?

 

Your reply said "not healing?", so I asked "What about healing?" b/c you seemed to be looking for something specific. To which you never replied.....

i did... and you replied to that. i saw the conversation was going nowhere, so i dropped it.

 

*NOWHERE* have I said that Combat Medic is fine. You are either stupid, ignorant, or just have blind hatred for me.

i find this statement very ironic. i think if you look at my post history of replies to you, you will find that i've been nothing but patient with you, despite the fact that you have felt the need to call me stupid, moronic, and generally insult my intelligence and turn to ad hominem debates rather than focus on the discussion, even when i'm not talking to you and even in threads where i have not posted. (i know that this discussion i mentioned you, so i'm not talking about this one).

 

i've never once called you any of the above derogatories, insulted your intelligence, talked down to you, or made derogatory statements about your character when we find that we've disagreed on something, so i don't know where you're getting the assumption that i have some blind hatred to you, unless you're projecting.

I do not appreciate you attempting to put words into my mouth, or your attempts to extrapolate details from my posts which I have no intention of conveying.

that is a fair point, however my assessment of your statements and their implications isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. i should have realized that your general hostility towards me was only towards me though, and shouldn't have guessed that you really believed it.

 

if you're open to asking a question about healing, then good. i'll retract my warning to gyronamics not to bother with discussing trauma probe, and this discussion can stop, trauma probe discussion can continue.

 

If you have a problem with me, this is not the thread to hash it out in. I will not respond to this topic within this thread again.

i didn't bring it up, but yes, i agree. however, here we are.

 

We have 6 questions across the forum, I'm pretty sure something about healing can be mentioned in there.

i agree, so i'm not overly worried about it, and the merc questions will go up soon.

Edited September 2, 2013 by oaceen

[ToMyMa]

Where can I buy some popcorn? This is highly amusing

 

 

 

 

 

I'm the freakin' combo breaker! Deal with it!

[Pilgrim_Grey]

I don't know that there is anything wrong about asking questions for more damage or healing output if we can argue for them well. If we made a good case for them, then it's on the devs if they want to give a bad response along the lines of "heal to full."

 

That said, I don't know that the issues Commando healing has is with output, per se. Surely, Ops and Scoundrels can put up big numbers more easily, but I think the issue there is more with them being too strong. The focus on resource use (ammo or whatever) is probably the better way to go with this.

 

Just wanted to put that out there, because I don't think it hurts to ask for things and make a case for it. Sometimes the devs aren't aware of issues that are out there, or don't get interested in them until the players make a good case for them.

[cashogy_reborn]

if you're open to asking a question about healing, then good. i'll retract my warning to gyronamics not to bother with discussing trauma probe, and this discussion can stop, trauma probe discussion can continue.

 

 

This is a news flash to only you.

 

I don't know that there is anything wrong about asking questions for more damage or healing output if we can argue for them well. If we made a good case for them, then it's on the devs if they want to give a bad response along the lines of "heal to full."

 

That said, I don't know that the issues Commando healing has is with output, per se. Surely, Ops and Scoundrels can put up big numbers more easily, but I think the issue there is more with them being too strong. The focus on resource use (ammo or whatever) is probably the better way to go with this.

 

Just wanted to put that out there, because I don't think it hurts to ask for things and make a case for it. Sometimes the devs aren't aware of issues that are out there, or don't get interested in them until the players make a good case for them.

 

I just dont think that straight output is the main problem. There are things that need to be addressed first, like you said: ammo management for one, mobility, utility, and the organization of the CM skill tree. If all of those things are addressed and we are still lacking in output, then we bring it up. But right now, there is just so much lacking on the healing front besides just the output that it is hard to really point to that as its primary weakness.

 

If I were asking questions before Mercs, there would be a question concerning the fact that Gunny and CM are very unforgiving in their ammo management if you want to get the most you can out of the specs, and there would be a question about the talent organization and utility/mobility of the CM tree (Frontline Medic would be a large part of that). The third question I would try to ask something about improving Assault.

 

There is a high chance of these questions changing dramatically based on the responses to the Merc questions, and even the Powertech questions (regarding Assault/Pyrotech).

 

 

 

But again, Ive said these things multiple things in this thread already. It might be a good idea to put this on hold until after the Merc questions are answered. The discussion in this thread seems to be repeating itself every few pages.

[oaceen]

I don't know that there is anything wrong about asking questions for more damage or healing output if we can argue for them well. If we made a good case for them, then it's on the devs if they want to give a bad response along the lines of "heal to full."

i think it could be reasonably asked about commando healing and how it is intended to pair up against the other two healing classes. it's a fairly open-ended question without any hopes or whatever built into it. how do they design the three to be balanced with each other, and why would someone want to take a commando (by their intended design) over another healing class.

 

and of course there's a lot of room for additional material like confusion over intended mechanics. for example, do they intend supercharge to be an 'oh crap' button to help get you out of a tight spot or is it intended as an integral part of the rotation? and if so, why do we have a peak of +5% outgoing healing then nothing as we charged up to 30 after, get to 3%, jump right over it to 5% again, etc.

and the trauma probe issue as well; it made sense that it had to be limited to one person at a time. now it doesn't, so was that an oversight or intended design choice?

 

i don't know if it's necessary to ask for specific changes aside from getting rid of frontline medic or something. just say 'hey devs. we hate this talent. can you get rid of it or find a way to make it useful (ie. fixing the trauma probe stacking issue might do that and fix both issues at once)?'

[PhatMcMuffins]

Correcting the major flaws the the skill tree and the mechanics of our tree skills is key, imo. If things like this are corrected, I believe our healing output will start to be on par.

 

The problem is both the class and spec mechanics work against CM/BG. They are too susceptible to being shut down and this stems from how the commando.mercenary works overall as well as the terrible makeup of the CM/BG tree

[oaceen]

Correcting the major flaws the the skill tree and the mechanics of our tree skills is key, imo.

hey are too susceptible to being shut down and this stems from how the commando.mercenary works overall as well as the terrible makeup of the CM/BG tree

 

completely agree with this. when the questions were first being discussed, i was thinking of a general 'skill tree' question where we point out the flaws in each tree.

 

for combat medic, having to waste 2 points on frontline medic (for pvp or pve) is a waste. having to waste 2 MORE points to get the same bonus to crit we got pre-2.0 (which touches upon a larger issue of why was special munitions changed from a 1-point skill to a 3-point skill) and losing our +2% inc/out heals doesn't really make sense imo

 

gunnery: lots of pvp-centric talents in the middle of the tree that need to be taken to get to the top. the reduction of the pushback talent from 2 to 3 points made it so that we have 70% pushback instead of 75%, which is apparently just enough to be a huge problem, losing the last time of full auto now whereas before we didn't

 

and assault in general is a mess, but i think it's not as bad now in light of the recent changes, but i'd still love to completely get rid of soldier's endurance and sweltering heat for some useful survivability/utility talents.