Jump to content

Class Balancing in PvP


Azarai

Recommended Posts

The last time we saw class balancing was in April with the release of the large patch you all made us purchase (cause lets face it, it's hard to call what we got an 'expansion') and now we as a community are speculating, or more like praying, that we see a rebalance in the so-called PvP patch slated for 2.4. Prior to that, it was the ungodly 1.3 that introduced to PvP bubble stuns and smashtards, which again went on for MONTHS until 2.0 hit (smash is still completely over-performing). The true question in all this is why when there are obvious exploits/complete lack of class balance and broken game mechanics does it take the developers to get off their backsides and pull themselves away from re-skinning things for the CM to do some balancing?

 

It is absolutely hysterical that we have only had 2 major re-balances in the nearly 2 years of this game with very few minor tweaks inbetween. This is a call for developers to listen to your community, stop hiding behind Eric and Amber with their "we'll pass this along to so-and-so" responses we get, and do something to actually fix this pandemic. Healers, specifically operatives, are out of control. PT's/VG's are an absolute joke with their overnerfs, Op concealment/Scoundrel scrapper is extremely underwhelming, Balance Shadows/Madness Sins are as far as I see on Po5 an extinct species, along with other specs that need addressing and HAVE NEEDED IT FOR MONTHS!!! There is no way this game will continue to survive and keep their subs, especially on the PvP side, with such a blatant lack of attention to something so important.

 

Class balancing needs to be done more often, and with Arenas on the horizon will only be exacerbated if you all continue to ignore it the way you do now. People will play Arenas, find the 'perfect comp' and we'll have the same cookie-cutter teams that we already see in Ranked. If you all are in anyway thinking of a future for this game, it begins with making sure that the classes get tweaked to keep them from over/under performing and to not let them do so for such dramatically long times. Stun bubbles for well over 6 months? That's acceptable to you all as a development team? It's a slap in the face and it's about time we as a community start to demand attention to areas that need them in areas of importance. Sorry but making sure a mask doesn't clip into a hood or fixing a stupid jump animation shouldn't take priority over class balancing. These issues at a MINIMUM should be looked at every couple of weeks with larger balancing occurring at the very least every 2 months, not what we're seeing now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last time we saw class balancing was in April with the release of the large patch you all made us purchase (cause lets face it, it's hard to call what we got an 'expansion') and now we as a community are speculating, or more like praying, that we see a rebalance in the so-called PvP patch slated for 2.4. Prior to that, it was the ungodly 1.3 that introduced to PvP bubble stuns and smashtards, which again went on for MONTHS until 2.0 hit (smash is still completely over-performing). The true question in all this is why when there are obvious exploits/complete lack of class balance and broken game mechanics does it take the developers to get off their backsides and pull themselves away from re-skinning things for the CM to do some balancing?

 

It is absolutely hysterical that we have only had 2 major re-balances in the nearly 2 years of this game with very few minor tweaks inbetween. This is a call for developers to listen to your community, stop hiding behind Eric and Amber with their "we'll pass this along to so-and-so" responses we get, and do something to actually fix this pandemic. Healers, specifically operatives, are out of control. PT's/VG's are an absolute joke with their overnerfs, Op concealment/Scoundrel scrapper is extremely underwhelming, Balance Shadows/Madness Sins are as far as I see on Po5 an extinct species, along with other specs that need addressing and HAVE NEEDED IT FOR MONTHS!!! There is no way this game will continue to survive and keep their subs, especially on the PvP side, with such a blatant lack of attention to something so important.

 

Class balancing needs to be done more often, and with Arenas on the horizon will only be exacerbated if you all continue to ignore it the way you do now. People will play Arenas, find the 'perfect comp' and we'll have the same cookie-cutter teams that we already see in Ranked. If you all are in anyway thinking of a future for this game, it begins with making sure that the classes get tweaked to keep them from over/under performing and to not let them do so for such dramatically long times. Stun bubbles for well over 6 months? That's acceptable to you all as a development team? It's a slap in the face and it's about time we as a community start to demand attention to areas that need them in areas of importance. Sorry but making sure a mask doesn't clip into a hood or fixing a stupid jump animation shouldn't take priority over class balancing. These issues at a MINIMUM should be looked at every couple of weeks with larger balancing occurring at the very least every 2 months, not what we're seeing now.

 

I agree.

 

I wonder if a petition on change.org will do anything? lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They need SMALL tweaks to coefficients, quiet nerfs to certain skills (small percentages at a time), and tiny adjustments to resource costs. Things that change the status que without majorly revamping the system. A bi-weekly schedule like you said would help a lot with that IMHO.

 

Just like this:

 

Guardian and Juggernauts continue to overperform in Focus and Rage specs. Force Sweep and Smash have had their damage lowered by 4%.

Commando and Mercenary healing continues to underperform compared to similarly-skilled healers with other classes. Medical Probe and Rapid Scan have had their healing increased by 5%.

 

With small tweaks like this, no one can really complain, since 4% isn't a lot (except it is a decent chunk in auto-crit situations). Tiny healing increases don't drastically change rotations or power levels. Plus, people can look forward to two weeks later when the changes are revisited.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They need SMALL tweaks to coefficients, quiet nerfs to certain skills (small percentages at a time), and tiny adjustments to resource costs. Things that change the status que without majorly revamping the system. A bi-weekly schedule like you said would help a lot with that IMHO.

 

Just like this:

 

Guardian and Juggernauts continue to overperform in Focus and Rage specs. Force Sweep and Smash have had their damage lowered by 4%.

Commando and Mercenary healing continues to underperform compared to similarly-skilled healers with other classes. Medical Probe and Rapid Scan have had their healing increased by 5%.

 

With small tweaks like this, no one can really complain, since 4% isn't a lot (except it is a decent chunk in auto-crit situations). Tiny healing increases don't drastically change rotations or power levels. Plus, people can look forward to two weeks later when the changes are revisited.

 

Things like this go a long way, small regular tweaks, bumps, and adjustments that can help lower/raise performances of classes/specs that need them. On the other hand, I think BW just loves to have knee-jerk reactions and try and do complete class overhauls and either over-inflate them, such as the case with ops/scoundrel heals or the forum favorite rage/focus, and completely put into shambles other classes, like Assault/Pyro spec for example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Easy fixes- scoundrel/op healer now has a cooldown on their roll as well as a longer cooldown on their dot removal.

 

PT- increase in dot damage, defensive cooldown on the assault side, add a healer debuff, and change retaliation back.

 

mara- increase dot damage, produce a 3 minute cooldown on when sprint can activate all players, take away a dcd

 

merc- gets dcd and healer debuff on assault side

 

sorc/shadow increase dot damage, add cc ability in that tree

 

sniper decrease dcd or increase dcd cooldown, decrease damage by 5% across the board

 

Warrior- take away auto crit on smash

 

call it a day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tottally agree with this but i dont think that is going to happen in our "pvp patch" we have 2 operations that i dont know why they are there in the first place also if we look back our "balance"its clearly that either the devs doesnt care or dont notice all the feedback for the pvp comunity

For example take watchman ( i use that spec either for pvp and pve couse its awesome :p) it has been useless for pvp since almost ever and after tons of feedback the devs didnt fix the problem so watchman is still useless , stun bubble was asking for nerf and they did !! after almost a year in the game same goes for smash , now all the jedi knights/ sith warriors are smashers (except for some awesome pvpers that are staying combat or watchman) that no one can deny that they are op and they got "nerfed" but at the same time they got buffs that didnt fix the real problem and like that it goes , sadly we need to admit that this game is pve focused and pvp is only an adition to the game, until the devs really starts to hearing us the pvp comunity and actually doing stuff for pvp ( balance, more wz , dailyes and twieks) we have suck it up and try to survive and pray for the pvp envyroment that we want

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The right approach is the pessimistic approach. Do not expect anything good and maybe, just maybe you will be suddenly surprized. It took them 6 month to fix bubble stuns, I expect operative healing to be fixed somehwere mid 2014 if the game will still have any subs by then.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Easy fixes- scoundrel/op healer now has a cooldown on their roll as well as a longer cooldown on their dot removal.

 

PT- increase in dot damage, defensive cooldown on the assault side, add a healer debuff, and change retaliation back.

 

mara- increase dot damage, produce a 3 minute cooldown on when sprint can activate all players, take away a dcd

 

merc- gets dcd and healer debuff on assault side

 

sorc/shadow increase dot damage, add cc ability in that tree

 

sniper decrease dcd or increase dcd cooldown, decrease damage by 5% across the board

 

Warrior- take away auto crit on smash

 

call it a day.

 

worst suggestions ever

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I agree that the SWTOR dev team does need to take a better/longer/more thorough look at class balancing in PvP (and PVE for that matter), the class-imbalance argument is one that exists in every single computer PvP environment and will never go away.

Although there are some realistic concerns around over and underpowered classes or abilities, the majority of complaints come from a slanted perspective.

Also, whenever the developers work to fix something, once it is implemented you then have thousands of gamers trying to find the breaks in the fix or the new FotM or min/max spec. Developers will always be on the backfoot and losing the balancing-war.

I saw a quote once (think it was a forum sig, I apologise if I am stealing it from someone here) which really said it well for me.

And I am probably paraphrasing here

 

Scissors are OP.

Rock is fine.

Regards, Paper.

Edited by Ashenti
Link to comment
Share on other sites

worst suggestions ever

 

Uhoh was your easy mode class gonna get nerfed. (not that any classes are hard, but some are much easier than the others). I assume that was it, mainly because you didn't point out any specific point in which to object to, nor did you discuss any pros or cons of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uhoh was your easy mode class gonna get nerfed. (not that any classes are hard, but some are much easier than the others). I assume that was it, mainly because you didn't point out any specific point in which to object to, nor did you discuss any pros or cons of that.

 

op- roll is not the problem, their easymode energy management is. srm needs to cost more energy and emp needs to cost like 1-2 energy, just not free. dodge is their ONLY good cd...nerfing that is not a good idea. maybe lessen the amount of healing done by srm too but nothing too severe. energy is the main thing with them. (btw harder energy regen will make rolling less frequent)

 

pt- easy, rollback all 2.0 changes. increasing dot damage will literally do nothing, pyro should be a burst class as it was intended to be. maybe nerf CGC by 25-30% from pre 2.0, but 50 is too much. as for AP, i think they had a solid buff for them in the early PTS of 2.0 but then they nerfed them again before it could get out. so bring that back. as for tanks i dont know anything about pt tanks so no clue. also give pyro back the cd reduction skill as ap is tanky enough and doesnt need it

 

mara- only op spec is smash, and its only op because of their cds. carnage is not op and annih is way under powered. for annhi i'd say yeah boost damage done by dots, give them their self heals back to pre 1.4 (i think that was the nerf?), and give them SOME sort of dot protection or else make overcharge saber have no cd and cost 1/0 rage. as for the cd situation with smash id say take away their undying rage related skills in the smash tree so that they get a 90s cd on undying and give that 30s reduction to annih. your 3 min cd on predation is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

 

your sorc/shadow i dont even understand what you were trying to say here, i think you were talking about madness tree? i have no idea how to fix that they messed up big time there, but that's definitely not all that sorcs/sins need

 

no auto crit on smash would almost break the spec...do you want even longer ttk?

 

for sniper vs merc/sorc dps im not really sure if its the sniper that's op or the sorc/merc that is under powered compared to it...in an ideal world id like them both buffed to be on par with the sniper and maybe that would lower ttk...but the healer/tank issue is a different discussion. 5% decrease in damage is stupid though...engi is definitely not op and probably a little UP, MM is probably just right and lethality maybe a little op, but it's more due to the ability to not be ccd and interrupted that makes them strong, and if you take that away...well that's all the class has

 

mercs dont need another dcd, the pyro tree is dead but so is the pt pyro tree, both arsenal and pyro need the cd reduction talent for reflexive shield. and i have no idea how to fix heal mercs

 

whew

Edited by OldSpiceSwag
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prior to that, it was the ungodly 1.3 that introduced to PvP bubble stuns and smashtards, which again went on for MONTHS until 2.0 hit (smash is still completely over-performing).

 

Smash was OP straight out of the gates, my guardian was smashing way before 1.3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys keep forgetting two issues that need attention:

 

1. Respecc during WZs

To allow respecc in WZs is probably the poorest decision ever by BW.

Respecc should not be allowed in WZs. Exception: At the very start, before the gates open the first time.

 

1. Guard

Guard has to be toned down for PvP.

My suggestion: Let expertise generally boost dmg applied to guarded players by factor 1.33.

This would equal to guarded players suffering 66% of the dmg (before boosting), instead of only 50%. Because it would go over expertise, it would not affect PvE.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You guys keep forgetting two issues that need attention:

 

1. Respecc during WZs

To allow respecc in WZs is probably the poorest decision ever by BW.

Respecc should not be allowed in WZs. Exception: At the very start, before the gates open the first time.

 

1. Guard

Guard has to be toned down for PvP.

My suggestion: Let expertise generally boost dmg applied to guarded players by factor 1.33.

This would equal to guarded players suffering 66% of the dmg (before boosting), instead of only 50%. Because it would go over expertise, it would not affect PvE.

 

that is a different discussion

Link to comment
Share on other sites

no auto crit on smash would almost break the spec...do you want even longer ttk?

 

No it won't.

 

Just raising the crit chance to around 50~60% like how Force Potency does to sorc/sages should be enough. In this case, this change even helps 'balance' Focus/Rage in a secondary form as well, since in order to crit almost consistently (presumably around 80~85% chance) the spec would need to invest in crit chance as well, so the base chance is boosted to 20~25% --- bam.. no more "entire spec built on auto-crit that just dumps all gearing options to power and surge, so it consistentl deals mega-sized, guaranteed crit"

 

This way the average damage will probably be lowered from around 8k crits to maybe around 6.5~7k (it's still a goddamned heavy hit!), since power and surge needs to be diverted to crit chance. However all the other attacks will have a much higher crit chance. The power itself also has a chance to fail to crit.

 

...

 

.... the irony here being I don't fear one-trick ponies much.. so I don't really care if smash/sweeps are nerfed or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No it won't.

 

Just raising the crit chance to around 50~60% like how Force Potency does to sorc/sages should be enough. In this case, this change even helps 'balance' Focus/Rage in a secondary form as well, since in order to crit almost consistently (presumably around 80~85% chance) the spec would need to invest in crit chance as well, so the base chance is boosted to 20~25% --- bam.. no more "entire spec built on auto-crit that just dumps all gearing options to power and surge, so it consistentl deals mega-sized, guaranteed crit"

 

This way the average damage will probably be lowered from around 8k crits to maybe around 6.5~7k (it's still a gosh darned heavy hit!), since power and surge needs to be diverted to crit chance. However all the other attacks will have a much higher crit chance. The power itself also has a chance to fail to crit.

 

...

 

.... the irony here being I don't fear one-trick ponies much.. so I don't really care if smash/sweeps are nerfed or not.

 

the spec is built around ONE move. EVERYTHING about the spec goes into smashing. if you take away the consistent big hit, you break the spec. examples: see pyro pts. now imagine in 2.0 if the only nerf to pyro pts was that the proc for a free rail shot was upped from a rate of 6 seconds to 20 seconds. that would totally break the class.

 

it would definitely break the class and finalize melee's death

Link to comment
Share on other sites

:) Just bring back the slight delay in the smash / sweep animation from where the damage hit after the animation was over . Use to love tripping smashers up when they would ask why did it miss, still easy to make the miss now, but before it was much easier.

 

Also bring back the animation for force push for inq, and conq. It was fun being able to time my hold the line to avoid the skill. Add meaningful animation that if used right people can dodge or use certain skills to avoid them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that is a different discussion

 

Yes and no. Before individually rebalancing classes, it would be good to check whether getting rid of respecc in WZs and generally nerfing guard (in PvP only) is not already close to a much better balance. Of course, operative's energy management would still need to be looked at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mind getting a major rebalance 1-2 times a year. What I don't want is class balance every other month which leads to a revolving door or nerfs/buffs and fotm classes.

 

With a 'PvP' patch coming I would expect some balance changes since it will have been 6 months since the last change. My only concern is arenas and if they will take into account balance because of this and I think they should still be balancing towards 8v8 and not scaled back 4v4.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i presume you are a smasher?

 

I agree, buff the oher ttrees, auto crit on smash must be taken away. Maybe then all the smash monkeys will think of adding some crit to the gear ;)

 

Because there is a single class in pvp that wants crit on their gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't mind getting a major rebalance 1-2 times a year. What I don't want is class balance every other month which leads to a revolving door or nerfs/buffs and fotm classes.

 

With a 'PvP' patch coming I would expect some balance changes since it will have been 6 months since the last change. My only concern is arenas and if they will take into account balance because of this and I think they should still be balancing towards 8v8 and not scaled back 4v4.

 

I agree with balancing toward 8v8 but I do think I would rather have more frequent, yet much smaller balancing done. Seems like each time there are drastic changes and it obliterates some specs for far too long.

 

Because there is a single class in pvp that wants crit on their gear.

LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with balancing toward 8v8 but I do think I would rather have more frequent, yet much smaller balancing done. Seems like each time there are drastic changes and it obliterates some specs for far too long.

 

Well I try to keep in mind that some changes that the PvP community really wants will drastically effect PvE (hey they pay to play the game as well). I would not be apposed to 'micro' changes, tweaks here and there but 2.0 has not brought anything that I would say is flat out 'broken'.

 

I say this as I play a spec which is one of the worst in the game so I keep a fairly open mind towards these things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I don't want is class balance every other month which leads to a revolving door or nerfs/buffs and fotm classes. .

 

We already have that now where there are best healers by far in pvp, best tanks by far in pvp, and best dps by far in pvp. What makes it worse is the fact that they remain that way for entirely too long because the development team obviously has no idea what it's doing, even not thinking about just making minor tweaks (not gutting like the love to do) by making small incremental changes to certain abilities to either lower/raise their effectiveness.

 

I would rather have a revolving door of once a month a new flavor come out rather than what we see now, where the most OP classes remain that way for half a year or longer due to just outright ignorance or lack of caring, which the latter seems the greater possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...