Suggested balance changes

[akabane_k]

Oh I agree, the pre 2.0 Assault Plastique was amazing for burst, and I wrecked fools in one one rotation if I got lucky with crits, I was just trying to think of a way to make Incendiary Round more useful. But Assault/Pyro Mandos/Mercs required more skill than our PT cousins, and we got (RIDICULOUSLY) caught in the nerf-bat crossfire (again). The day Assault was nerfed on the PTS was a sad day indeed.

 

make incendiary round have the same stats(#targets,costs) as corrosive grenade, its stupid that the aoe dot costs 10 and the single target costs 25

 

and make HIB crit increase based on how many dots are on the target, maybe 10-15% per dot.

Edited July 20, 2013 by akabane_k

[ArchangelLBC]

1 - The point of swapping is that today I basically take the 2 points with Alacrity because it is better than 2% Endurance, but Alacrity has little to do with a DoT spec. I do take the anti-pushback because I use both Full Auto and Charged Bolts extensively. Basically, it would give me two points back that are not a waste. Right now, I take all 3 Tier 1 talents in the Gunnery Tree.

 

2 - I prefer to keep the DoT. The reason is 2 fold. First, I like the DoTs because it makes it hard to revanish. Now, you can argue that other DoTs work just fine. Plasma Cell is too short really and Incendiary Round is EXPENSIVE. I tend not to use it unless I am going for a kill or I need an instant with some pop. Now the real reason I want to keep the DoT is the synergy with Burnout. That is how I kill healers. If I can work them to 30%, they basically have to stand still and max heal. If I have done things right and they don't have a helper, I own them. It is not as pretty as the big up front damage as Gunnery, but its sneaky and it works.

 

I think that this is the point that people underestimate Assault with...it works really well to finish people off.

 

 

Sorry chief but pure burst is what kills people in PVP. You can actually keep the DoT, but the initial hit needs to be as hard as it originally used to be. I don't know that I agree that it's the worst top tier talent in the game, but it's gotta be up there. The fact that the optimal build in PVE doesn't take it at ALL is a pretty damning fact against it.

 

And yes I understand why you take steadied aim. Just, if they're switched they can't remove the pushback reduction to grav round just because it's in the assault tree all of a sudden.

[namkcas]

I am happy for a harder initial hit on AP which is why I suggested a combo with Sticky Grenade. But I do NOT want the DoT to go away. If 10% is too small, make it bigger - but do NOT eliminate the DoT. Trying to play Assault like you do Gunnery is the biggest mistake I see in WZs.

[cashogy_reborn]

I am happy for a harder initial hit on AP which is why I suggested a combo with Sticky Grenade. But I do NOT want the DoT to go away. If 10% is too small, make it bigger - but do NOT eliminate the DoT. Trying to play Assault like you do Gunnery is the biggest mistake I see in WZs.

 

did you play assault before 2.0?

[namkcas]

Yes I did.

 

I don't try to compare eras....I work on am I being successful or not.

[cashogy_reborn]

Yes I did.

 

I don't try to compare eras....I work on am I being successful or not.

 

it sounds like you didnt.

 

Assault Plastique had >40% of its damage moved from the main detonation to a 12s DoT. in total, its the same amount of damage. for PvE, it makes no difference whether its got a DoT or not; 7k damage is 7k damage, it really doesnt matter if it applies all at once or over 12s.

 

in PvP tho, it makes a world of difference. especially when your likely going to have that DoT cleansed off (unless youre playing scrubs) and its going to do pathetic damage.

 

assault has enough DoTs. it needs some burst in order to be competitive. the change to assault plastique is part of why the spec is so bad now.

Edited July 20, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[oaceen]

Assault Plastique had >40% of its damage moved from the main detonation to a 12s DoT. in total, its the same amount of damage. for PvE, it makes no difference whether its got a DoT or not; 7k damage is 7k damage, it really doesnt matter if it applies all at once or over 12s.

 

i don't know if that's really true. damage was reduced by at 40% initially, but quite a large portion of the original damage was added as a dot, which is quite a bit more, especially if you factor in that the dot gets an additional benefit from burnout and is unmitigated by armor

 

it was ~3.5k on the tooltip before the change for me in arkanian gear, then ~2.5k + ~2k dot after

 

 

 

that's not to say it couldn't be tweaked.

i sort of have to stand behind it. it was sort of my suggestion anyway (for reference, i did make others, such as having a chance to reset HIB, trigger/reset plasma cell itself, or be an AOE)

 

but when i said AP offers no synergy with the tree (which was completely true before, so simply rolling back the changes aren't going to be helpful imo), and i said 'it doesn't even burn the target,' what i had envisioned was maybe a 3-6s dot that applied that was in addition to the blast

 

i like the dot. i liked that it's a 12s dot but after the change to plasma cell, i think it's a bit unnecessary.

 

so my suggestion: make it a 6s dot instead of 12. damage could be tweaked around (original blast damage or just all of the 12s dot's damage over 6s instead), but all of its damage over 6s instead of 12 would give it a bit more burst while also keeping the burn component

[Gyronamics]

AP had no obvious synergy as you say but what it was was a powerful semi-instant attack which relied on nothing, an opener, a finisher, a last second gift for someone running round a corner.

 

2 GCD later you see a 5k yellow text appear through a wall as they find out they didn't get away, often since people try to get away on extreme low health it's the last thing they do see.

 

Most of my time as Assault in PVP pre-2.0 was covering people with grenades on CD for the simple reason that it was damage in the bank, once you let them go that's damage already done albeit on a delay and no amount of cleansing will remove them.

 

Some shields can cheese them but they are cheap attacks which are expensive to waste a shield on.

 

So yeah, changing it to a miserable spike plus a really really drawn out DoT doesn't help kill a target. Metrics be dammed, we can all see the lack of play of Assault Commando in PVP.

[ArchangelLBC]

And extra synergy or not, a talent you don't take in PVE might as well have no synergy with the rest of the tree.

[cashogy_reborn]

i don't know if that's really true. damage was reduced by at 40% initially, but quite a large portion of the original damage was added as a dot, which is quite a bit more, especially if you factor in that the dot gets an additional benefit from burnout and is unmitigated by armor

 

it was ~3.5k on the tooltip before the change for me in arkanian gear, then ~2.5k + ~2k dot after

 

 

 

that's not to say it couldn't be tweaked.

i sort of have to stand behind it. it was sort of my suggestion anyway (for reference, i did make others, such as having a chance to reset HIB, trigger/reset plasma cell itself, or be an AOE)

 

but when i said AP offers no synergy with the tree (which was completely true before, so simply rolling back the changes aren't going to be helpful imo), and i said 'it doesn't even burn the target,' what i had envisioned was maybe a 3-6s dot that applied that was in addition to the blast

 

i like the dot. i liked that it's a 12s dot but after the change to plasma cell, i think it's a bit unnecessary.

 

so my suggestion: make it a 6s dot instead of 12. damage could be tweaked around (original blast damage or just all of the 12s dot's damage over 6s instead), but all of its damage over 6s instead of 12 would give it a bit more burst while also keeping the burn component

 

on PTS pre nerf, with fully min/maxd power/surge PvP gear, my assault plastique was ~4k base damage. on crits, it would break 7k easy and near 8k on low armor targets. post nerf, 2.5k and in at least an hour of attempting, i did not get one main detonation greater than 5k.

 

what i said is 100% true. the DoT spreads the burst out over 12s. which is trash for PvP, and its likely going to be cleansed further reducing damage output.

 

 

whoa, wait a sec. where you the guy on the PTS forum that suggested AP needed more synergy and should be a DoT? the same guy that multiple people told to g t f o b/c that made absolutely no sense, the thread was then buried without even breaking 2 pages iirc.

 

and btw, it had synergy with the tree. it was a delayed burst, which was perfect for using while setting up HIB. apply DoT -> AP -> charged bolts -> HIB. pre 2.0 i would level people with that combo, and for the brief time on PTS when i could do it properly it was doing close to 20k damage, all applying at the same time.

 

the DoT needs to be removed. assault already has 2 go-to DoT and a 3rd AOE DoT. the spec's strength pre 2.0 was its burst. a DoT on AP is killing the burst potential. any DoT at all is crap for 2 reasons: 1) it takes away from the burst you can generate w/ AP -> CB -> HIB, which was a killer combo, and 2) it IS GOING TO BE CLEANSED IN PVP BY ANY COMPETENT PLAYER THAT CAN.

 

when i encounter an assault/pyro player i laugh. i eat their first rotation, which honestly isnt that much damage, wait for AP/TD to detonate and then use cleanse. BAM ive just eliminated the DoT from AP/TD, along with either the IM or PC/CGC DoT. there goes a huge portion of your damage, and possibly forces you to waste a GCD re-applying a DoT to set up HIB again.

 

there was absolutely no reason to change AP in the first place. it needs to be changed back.

[namkcas]

it sounds like you didnt.

 

Assault Plastique had >40% of its damage moved from the main detonation to a 12s DoT. in total, its the same amount of damage. for PvE, it makes no difference whether its got a DoT or not; 7k damage is 7k damage, it really doesnt matter if it applies all at once or over 12s.

 

in PvP tho, it makes a world of difference. especially when your likely going to have that DoT cleansed off (unless youre playing scrubs) and its going to do pathetic damage.

 

assault has enough DoTs. it needs some burst in order to be competitive. the change to assault plastique is part of why the spec is so bad now.

 

If you want to play a DoT spec, then play a DoT spec...Assault.

 

If you want to play a DD spec, then play a DD spec...Gunnery.

 

Again, you are trying to compare what used to be to what is today. That means no more than if I am balanced against a class in another game. What matters is if I am balanced against today's classes in SWTOR. That is ALL that matters. Yes DoT specs - Balance Sages, Leathality Operatives, Madness Shadows, etc etc etc...all of the challenge of DoT cleansing. Yes, Bioware made the DD specs much more viable in 2.0 for PvP....awesome.

 

The fact you want something and want to stamp your feet about it does not make it correct. You want a big instant boom....Gunnery is over there. For AP, in the way that Assault is shaped what I want is more synergy. I get it with Burnout and want more - like Grav Round/Demo Round. I am reasonably happy with the way the spec works, would like it to be a bit stronger/more efficient/more focused. You are not....that's fine...and it does not make you right.

[oaceen]

AP had no obvious synergy as you say but what it was was a powerful semi-instant attack which relied on nothing, an opener, a finisher, a last second gift for someone running round a corner.

i know. for PVP, it was amazing in that regard.

 

the original thread that i think spawned the change was mostly in regards to vanguard, saying that it was more beneficial to pick up talents in shield specialist and tactics, even with the damage boost that AP got in the initial round of 2.0 testing.

 

my point now is that simply rolling back the changes doesn't really solve anything, since the original claim would still stand (IMO)

 

So yeah, changing it to a miserable spike plus a really really drawn out DoT doesn't help kill a target. Metrics be dammed, we can all see the lack of play of Assault Commando in PVP.

i don't disagree with this at all. i think something should be changed to make it better.

 

And extra synergy or not, a talent you don't take in PVE might as well have no synergy with the rest of the tree.

i'm not sure i understand your point.

 

could you elaborate please?

 

on PTS pre nerf, with fully min/maxd power/surge PvP gear, my assault plastique was ~4k base damage. on crits, it would break 7k easy and near 8k on low armor targets. post nerf, 2.5k and in at least an hour of attempting, i did not get one main detonation greater than 5k.

 

what i said is 100% true. the DoT spreads the burst out over 12s. which is trash for PvP, and its likely going to be cleansed further reducing damage output.

the initial burst was reduced by about 40%.

so that is true, however, a 2k dot was added in addition to that. it does more damage now, just over 12s instead of all at once.

 

i'm not defending the change, i'm just making a clarification.

 

whoa, wait a sec. where you the guy on the PTS forum that suggested AP needed more synergy and should be a DoT? the same guy that multiple people told to g t f o b/c that made absolutely no sense, the thread was then buried without even breaking 2 pages iirc.

no one disagreed with my statement because i never suggested anything. i just made an assertion that it provided no synergy.

 

you may be confusing me a lot of people, or maybe you thought i was defending the change as you do now, simply because i'm clarifying things.

 

and btw, it had synergy with the tree. it was a delayed burst, which was perfect for using while setting up HIB. apply DoT -> AP -> charged bolts -> HIB. pre 2.0 i would level people with that combo, and for the brief time on PTS when i could do it properly it was doing close to 20k damage, all applying at the same time.

this has absolutely nothing to do with the synergy i was talking about.

 

what i said was: it doesn't really do anything for the rotation aside from provide a filler attack. it doesn't have a chance to reset HIB, it has 0% chance to proc plasma cell, it isn't buffed by rain of fire. other than a 30% critical multiplier, it receives no benefit (this was before AP was boosted 6% with hyper barrels)

i brought up charged bolts as a contrast: it got a +21% damage buff, +6% crit chance, +30% crit muliplier, had a chance to trigger plasma cell and reset HIB.

 

the DoT needs to be removed. assault already has 2 go-to DoT and a 3rd AOE DoT. the spec's strength pre 2.0 was its burst. a DoT on AP is killing the burst potential. any DoT at all is crap for 2 reasons: 1) it takes away from the burst you can generate w/ AP -> CB -> HIB, which was a killer combo, and 2) it IS GOING TO BE CLEANSED IN PVP BY ANY COMPETENT PLAYER THAT CAN.

my suggestion in my previous post was basically to restore the original burst, take the remaining damage that was boosted, and add it as a 6s dot

i don't see why that's a bad thing, unless you still disagree that the overall damage was increased.

 

when i encounter an assault/pyro player i laugh. i eat their first rotation, which honestly isnt that much damage, wait for AP/TD to detonate and then use cleanse. BAM ive just eliminated the DoT from AP/TD, along with either the IM or PC/CGC DoT. there goes a huge portion of your damage, and possibly forces you to waste a GCD re-applying a DoT to set up HIB again.

i do too. assault in pvp and in pve is garbage right now.

i'm not saying it's a good change. not everything is black and white. just because i have a dissenting opinion, does mean that i completely disagree with everything you say and only agree 100% with everything in contrast to that.

 

there was absolutely no reason to change AP in the first place. it needs to be changed back.

there was a reason. i wasn't the only person who posted in that thread.

i don't agree with the implementation of the change either, but simply changing it back is not going to solve anything since people had a problem before. that is the only real point i'm trying to make right now.

Edited July 21, 2013 by oaceen

[LordKantner]

Idk if this is added or not to the suggestions (So many versions at this point), but perhaps Assault spec could use those weak dots that gunslingers can spec into for shrap bomb and other periodic effects. That way even if you are facing a good pvper that cleanses often, your dots will still be viable for a few seconds in that weak form before they can cleanse again.

[Gyronamics]

If you want to play a DoT spec, then play a DoT spec...Assault.

 

If you want to play a DD spec, then play a DD spec...Gunnery.

 

No, Assault really isn't a DoT spec.

 

Balance Sage is a DoT spec, Dirty Fighting is a DoT spec, Watchman is a DoT spec.

 

I can see all of those doing real meaningful damage with their DoT attacks.

 

Assault is a Ranged damage spec which does long pitiful DoT which exists to buff ranged damage and provide a debuff for HiB.

 

That's the most disgraceful thing about it, the DoT it does is expensive, weak and the major damage is ranged damage.

 

Which makes it a single target hard caster just like the tree next to it which does it more easily and requires no external buffs to prop it up.

 

 

Lets play a game of spot the DoT: http://www.torparse.com/a/308048/time/1372123954/1372124258/0/Overview

 

I'd say that's about 13% from fire DoT and... oh... 82% from Charged Bolts, High Impact Bolt and Hammer Shots.

 

The other 5% is misc damage.

 

Now with a straight face, repeat that you regard Assault as a DoT class.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Gyronamics

[cashogy_reborn]

No, Assault really isn't a DoT spec.

 

Balance Sage is a DoT spec, Dirty Fighting is a DoT spec, Watchman is a DoT spec.

 

I can see all of those doing real meaningful damage with their DoT attacks.

 

Assault is a Ranged damage spec which does long pitiful DoT which exists to buff ranged damage and provide a debuff for HiB.

 

That's the most disgraceful thing about it, the DoT it does is expensive, weak and the major damage is ranged damage.

 

Which makes it a single target hard caster just like the tree next to it which does it more easily and requires no external buffs to prop it up.

 

 

Lets play a game of spot the DoT: http://www.torparse.com/a/308048/time/1372123954/1372124258/0/Overview

 

I'd say that's about 13% from fire DoT and... oh... 82% from Charged Bolts, High Impact Bolt and Hammer Shots.

 

The other 5% is misc damage.

 

Now with a straight face, repeat that you regard Assault as a DoT class.

 

this, assault is not a DoT class at all.

 

between people crying for a nerf to VG, and one random dude asking for better "synergy", bioware absolutely ruined the spec.

 

*snip*

 

im not disagreeing with you b/c you have a dissenting opinion; im disagreeing with you because you are wrong.

 

Idk if this is added or not to the suggestions (So many versions at this point), but perhaps Assault spec could use those weak dots that gunslingers can spec into for shrap bomb and other periodic effects. That way even if you are facing a good pvper that cleanses often, your dots will still be viable for a few seconds in that weak form before they can cleanse again.

 

that doesnt really address the core problem tho, which is that assault is not a DoT spec. pre 2.0, the DoTs were set-up only for the most part. i rarely used Incendiary Missile on my pyro merc, bc i could get the DoT proc from Rapid Shots.

 

the problem right now is that Assault is not a DoT spec, but it has 4 DoTs. all of which are nothing to write home about in terms of damage. it needs a shift away from the DoTs, and back to the burst damage that made it good pre 2.0

 

Assault was a burst damage spec. now its a nothing spec.

Edited July 22, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[SpaniardInfinity]

you make some good points about field triage. what if an internal cooldown was added? something like this: "This effect cannot occur more than once every 12s". im gonna add that to the OP i think.

 

i always forget that EMP doenst work w/ TO. it should be made to as a baseline, it is a casted ability after all.

 

the frontline medic chance i proposed has a 100% chance w/ 2 points (1 pt gives you 50%, but who would leave 1 pt in there?)

 

the kolto pods is also something i like.

 

An internal cooldown could work on it, at least so you cannot do so more than once every other AMP. But I still think its not the right place for this kind of buff. I think its too powerful for any of the healers to have their biggest heal immune to interruption the majority of the time. A better mechanic would be to make AMP instant somehow, but with all the other great suggestions you make (especially lowering the cooldowns of both Tech Override and Reactive Shield), I don't think it would be necessary.

 

As for Frontline Medic, I was just thinking from a leveling perspective rather than from end-game. You would never leave 1 point there at end-game, but it might make leveling a bit easier if you put just one point there for the self-healing, extra Trauma Probe, and ammo regeneration. That would allow you to put points elsewhere (since Probe Medic really isn't worth taking until you can fully invest 3 point in it).

Edited July 22, 2013 by SpaniardInfinity

[ArchangelLBC]

i'm not sure i understand your point.

 

could you elaborate please?

 

Currently, the best PVE assault spec skips AP entirely, putting only 33 points into the assault tree. At that point it doesn't really matter what, if any, synergy the ability has with the tree, and AP as it currently is is more useful in PVE than PVP in a lot of respects.

 

 

Everyone else is right though. There are several DoT specs in the game. Assault can't really said to be one of them. Like everything else that is commando it seems to have been designed for a completely different game =/

[oaceen]

Currently, the best PVE assault spec skips AP entirely, putting only 33 points into the assault tree. At that point it doesn't really matter what, if any, synergy the ability has with the tree, and AP as it currently is is more useful in PVE than PVP in a lot of respects.

 

well, that's really the salient part of this whole discussion: AP should be viable for PVE and PVP. i think it's clear that bioware's goal is that full specs are more optimal than hybrid (they of course fail in this regard sometimes, such as the new vanguard dps and the hybrid sabo/dirty fighter that is still very much viable even after the nerf to independent anarchy).

 

i believe that the whole reason it was changed to begin with was the assertain that the old AP wasn't enough of a 'carrot' to go full assault, taking a bunch of skills in combat medic / gunnery / shield specialist / tactics instead for better dps. this was mostly a vanguard thread, but i think it fit commandos as well. i knew a lot who did the 1/12/33 build on PTS even before the AP change.

i think the old version and the current version of AP both suffer from that same problem; my reasoning that it had no synergy with the tree were just backing up the original claim.

 

simply adding a DoT wasn't really what i would have done if i were making the changes, but i think if it had gotten the damage boost from rain of fire, it would have been more than enough, but anything probably would have been enough: a boost from burnout, chance to trigger plasma cell, reset HIB, etc.

i added 'it doesn't even apply a burn' at the end of all of that sort of as an aside, or really 'it doesn't even [do this less significant thing]'

 

but anyways, another point i want to make is that all of this is meaningless without another important change: i also blame the way the skill tree is setup in that there's 2 wasted points in addition to getting AP, so that a change there would also need to be made, at least for PVE. i think there's a lot of PVP-centric skills in the tree, but as you said, the new AP is better for PVE than PVP, so it's still not entirely worth it there, even if those extra 2 points aren't completely 'wasted' (even if i think there needs to be some tweaks there as well)

 

 

 

 

 

 

also as another aside, i don't think it's fair to assume that i'm the sole reason AP was changed in the way it was. no dev replied to me or even commented in the thread as i recall, so we can't really say that they even read it. i would be arrogant to assume that it was my post that sparked the change, and i think it's a bit silly that anyone would solely blame me for 'ruining assault.'

i think it's safe to make an educated guess that the thread probably sparked something (or at least a similar thread/argument), but lots of people posted about that, and plasma cell was also changed at the same time, which is something no one was asking to be changed (unless it was mentioned in the closed beta forums).

 

 

that said, i think wording this question to the devs would be something like: it was argued on 2.0 testing that AP wasn't enough of a carrot to go full assault, leading to a lot of hybrid builds. the change, i think, was intended to be an answer to that. if that is so, do the devs feel it was a viable change, or does the original argument still hold true?

if that wasn't the reason, then what was the reasoning behind the change to AP (and plasma cell)?

Edited July 22, 2013 by oaceen

[Aliensorigin]

An internal cooldown could work on it, at least so you cannot do so more than once every other AMP. But I still think its not the right place for this kind of buff. I think its too powerful for any of the healers to have their biggest heal immune to interruption the majority of the time. A better mechanic would be to make AMP instant somehow, but with all the other great suggestions you make (especially lowering the cooldowns of both Tech Override and Reactive Shield), I don't think it would be necessary.

 

As for Frontline Medic, I was just thinking from a leveling perspective rather than from end-game. You would never leave 1 point there at end-game, but it might make leveling a bit easier if you put just one point there for the self-healing, extra Trauma Probe, and ammo regeneration. That would allow you to put points elsewhere (since Probe Medic really isn't worth taking until you can fully invest 3 point in it).

 

While I agree after using AMP, MP is now instant would be a bit overpowered/asking to much, but MP does need to have either a proc make it better or change it a little bit, whether that's making is 100% immune to pushback, immune to interrupt yet still full cast time, shortened cast time by a little bit along with all those suggestions adding a a higher chance to crit on it by about 15%-20% is needed!

Edited July 22, 2013 by Aliensorigin

[cashogy_reborn]

While I agree after using AMP, MP is now instant would be a bit overpowered/asking to much, but MP does need to have either a proc make it better or change it a little bit, whether that's making is 100% immune to pushback, immune to interrupt yet still full cast time, shortened cast time by a little bit along with all those suggestions adding a a higher chance to crit on it by about 15%-20% is needed!

 

making it uninterruptable on the proc rather than instant might work. i was just thinking about having a more reliable way to get our big heal out. in competitive situations casting even 1 heal can be difficult.

[Aliensorigin]

making it uninterruptable on the proc rather than instant might work. i was just thinking about having a more reliable way to get our big heal out. in competitive situations casting even 1 heal can be difficult.

 

Yeah I completely agree, but having an instant (now surge stacking) 9-10k heal every 12 seconds if it crits would be a bit overboard but hey, I normally couble medical probe and bacta infusion together to get out a very nice 12-14k heal, but the amount of times it gets interrupted it feels like my 18 second cd heal and KB are all I have left to keep people alive, and just another thing, scoundrel get a none cd heal I think that can be used at the expense of a stack of upper hand (correct me if I'm wrong) would it be worth while having bacta infusion on a 0 secon cooldown yet uses like 10 supercharged stacks, or is that asking a little too much?

Edited July 22, 2013 by Aliensorigin

[SpaniardInfinity]

While I agree after using AMP, MP is now instant would be a bit overpowered/asking to much, but MP does need to have either a proc make it better or change it a little bit, whether that's making is 100% immune to pushback, immune to interrupt yet still full cast time, shortened cast time by a little bit along with all those suggestions adding a a higher chance to crit on it by about 15%-20% is needed!

 

I would love it so much if Field Triage could stack twice and for each stack you have your critical chance is increased by 10%. But immunity to interrupt on MP with Field Triage and your Bacta Infusion change are awesome. The interrupt immunity would give time for the attacker to knock you back or CC you, and you could get out of the knockback by using Hold the Line if you see it coming. The Bacta Infusion change would also make a world of difference since it would give you more mobility and put your burst healing on a more reasonable cooldown. It wouldn't need an internal cooldown, either, since it's dependent on how fast you can build charges (usually going to take 3-4 GCDs minimum) if you spend them all on Bacta Infusion. But I definitely agree that something should be done to Bacta Infusion. It has its uses, but it is depressing when AMP hits harder than it.

Edited July 22, 2013 by SpaniardInfinity

[ArchangelLBC]

well, that's really the salient part of this whole discussion: AP should be viable for PVE and PVP. i think it's clear that bioware's goal is that full specs are more optimal than hybrid (they of course fail in this regard sometimes, such as the new vanguard dps and the hybrid sabo/dirty fighter that is still very much viable even after the nerf to independent anarchy).

 

i believe that the whole reason it was changed to begin with was the assertain that the old AP wasn't enough of a 'carrot' to go full assault, taking a bunch of skills in combat medic / gunnery / shield specialist / tactics instead for better dps. this was mostly a vanguard thread, but i think it fit commandos as well. i knew a lot who did the 1/12/33 build on PTS even before the AP change.

i think the old version and the current version of AP both suffer from that same problem; my reasoning that it had no synergy with the tree were just backing up the original claim.

 

simply adding a DoT wasn't really what i would have done if i were making the changes, but i think if it had gotten the damage boost from rain of fire, it would have been more than enough, but anything probably would have been enough: a boost from burnout, chance to trigger plasma cell, reset HIB, etc.

i added 'it doesn't even apply a burn' at the end of all of that sort of as an aside, or really 'it doesn't even [do this less significant thing]'

 

but anyways, another point i want to make is that all of this is meaningless without another important change: i also blame the way the skill tree is setup in that there's 2 wasted points in addition to getting AP, so that a change there would also need to be made, at least for PVE. i think there's a lot of PVP-centric skills in the tree, but as you said, the new AP is better for PVE than PVP, so it's still not entirely worth it there, even if those extra 2 points aren't completely 'wasted' (even if i think there needs to be some tweaks there as well)

 

 

 

 

 

 

also as another aside, i don't think it's fair to assume that i'm the sole reason AP was changed in the way it was. no dev replied to me or even commented in the thread as i recall, so we can't really say that they even read it. i would be arrogant to assume that it was my post that sparked the change, and i think it's a bit silly that anyone would solely blame me for 'ruining assault.'

i think it's safe to make an educated guess that the thread probably sparked something (or at least a similar thread/argument), but lots of people posted about that, and plasma cell was also changed at the same time, which is something no one was asking to be changed (unless it was mentioned in the closed beta forums).

 

 

that said, i think wording this question to the devs would be something like: it was argued on 2.0 testing that AP wasn't enough of a carrot to go full assault, leading to a lot of hybrid builds. the change, i think, was intended to be an answer to that. if that is so, do the devs feel it was a viable change, or does the original argument still hold true?

if that wasn't the reason, then what was the reasoning behind the change to AP (and plasma cell)?

 

The salient point is indeed that AP isn't a good enough ability to make people go full assault. The original change might have been designed to make it more attractive, but if so they failed miserably (I'm not saying you were the source of the idea btw). I also agree that a certain amount of synergy should exist within the tree or the ability should be so stand alone incredible it doesn't need direct synergy, but synergy or no, once it's more optimal to leave it alone, that ability needs to be buffed.

[Aliensorigin]

I would love it so much if Field Triage could stack twice and for each stack you have your critical chance is increased by 10%. But immunity to interrupt on MP with Field Triage and your Bacta Infusion change are awesome. The interrupt immunity would give time for the attacker to knock you back or CC you, and you could get out of the knockback by using Hold the Line if you see it coming. The Bacta Infusion change would also make a world of difference since it would give you more mobility and put your burst healing on a more reasonable cooldown. It wouldn't need an internal cooldown, either, since it's dependent on how fast you can build charges (usually going to take 3-4 GCDs minimum) if you spend them all on Bacta Infusion. But I definitely agree that something should be done to Bacta Infusion. It has its uses, but it is depressing when AMP hits harder than it.

 

A problem building supercharged stacks though, needing 30 for the supercharged cells to become available, I dunno about others but I would probably use it as a bacta infusion proc more then I would use supercharged cells!

 

To fix that, maybe link a few skill between TP and BI and make every activation of 1 tick of a TP have a 10%/20%/30% chance to build a stack of (insert name here) which will stack up till 2-3 charges, and make bacta infusion use one if those stacks so that supercharged stacks can be left for supercharged cells, along with the buff for TP said many time, the one of making it able to be used on 2+ targets!

 

Or if someone else thinks of something similar/better!

Edited July 22, 2013 by Aliensorigin

[cashogy_reborn]

A problem building supercharged stacks though, needing 30 for the supercharged cells to become available, I dunno about others but I would probably use it as a bacta infusion proc more then I would use supercharged cells!

 

To fix that, maybe link a few skill between TP and BI and make every activation of 1 tick of a TP have a 10%/20%/30% chance to build a stack of (insert name here) which will stack up till 2-3 charges, and make bacta infusion use one if those stacks so that supercharged stacks can be left for supercharged cells, along with the buff for TP said many time, the one of making it able to be used on 2+ targets!

 

Or if someone else thinks of something similar/better!

 

that is an interesting mechanic idea.

 

what about something like this: "Healing done by Trauma Probe has a 100% chance to grant "Rapid Bacta Deployment", which allows the use of Bacta Infusion. Using Bacta Infusion consumes the "Rapid Bacta Deployment". "Rapid Bacta Deployment" can stack up to 3 times. This effect cannot occur more than once every 10s."

 

it would be separate from Supercharge, which is good imo. it also means that it would take 30s to build the 3 stacks, which is multiple Trauma Probes. but after 30s, you could potentially have banked 3 "ohsh**" heals.

 

im not a huge fan of RNG chance procs; id rather have a set internal cooldown that guarantees the proc effect.

 

i think this should be in addition to it being a 18s cooldown tho. having stacks of "rapid bacta deployment" would circumvent the cooldown; ie if you have stacks available, no cooldown. but with 0 stacks, still an 18s base cooldown.

Edited July 22, 2013 by cashogy_reborn