Falmair Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 My only question is , How do you WIN , a MMO anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPryde Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Noone here claims that there are no restrictions for F2P and preferred players. There are a lot of restrictions, some silly, some reasonable. The restrictions are in place to do two things: 1. allow F2P players to enjoy the class stories (which is absolutely possible without paying a cent) 2. give those players a reason to spend money in order to enjoy the whole endgame, where class stories are void. The system works as intended and the cartel shop is offering no item, that will give you an advantage over other players, with two small exceptions, which might be arguable.... 1. The permission to wear artifact equipment. This one can be paid for in credits, which revokes the "P2W"-argument 2. The expansion... you cannot access lvl 51+ content without paying this. But you can access the whole game for free and that should be enough even for the most greedy person. Someone who is not willing to pay at all, also is not entitled to get it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Which is why they should rename "Free to Play" to "Glorified demo, please pay us money to be able to play the parts that make a MMO a MMO" it's not a demo it's way more than a demo would ever offer it's more than a lot of single player games even offer, 8 story lines with missions and side missions all of it for free Edited July 23, 2013 by Never_Hesitate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNahash Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Which is why they should rename "Free to Play" to "Glorified demo, please pay us money to be able to play the parts that make a MMO a MMO" which is why the people who enjoyed that "Glorified demo" should pay so that the MMO we enjoy stays alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RahaylaCora Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 No, I bet not one person has beaten the story in a F2P account without paying for anything, weather it be for a sub or cartel coins. You lose once more. I played 2 characters to the end. I subscribed for playing new characters, plus no restrictions and supporting the game. I still haven't bought any Cartel Coins in 8 months of gaming (F2P and subscriber). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockmks Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Noone here claims that there are no restrictions for F2P and preferred players. There are a lot of restrictions, some silly, some reasonable. The restrictions are in place to do two things: No i think its for a different reason.. From the changes in each every patch since f2p, well, its not that hard to see that bioware literally did change their business model to freemium+microtransactions. Look at the new content!! I think the restrictions are first and foremost a way to justify value for a subscription to existing customers, and to their discredit, not have to do any additional work to create that perceived value. I find it hard to see how bioware would still perceive tor (internally at the business discussions) as a sub first game with with a ftp "option". The output of new content (and the way its been priced and sold) tells a different story. Bioware do run the cartel market.. Dont get me wrong i have no problems with biowares approach to get paid.. i quite enjoy certain aspects of it. I always get the urge to say something when people go around thinking all sorts of strange other things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaranth Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 And here is why it is pay to win: Free to Play can't use best armor untill they have paid a subscription (that alone is pay to win but I will continue), they have a very limited credit limit, They cannot go into operations to get the best gear (that they can't even wear,) subbed players level up faster. Free players also do not have rest experience - making those who pay level up faster (or win faster.) They have a limited number of skills to use due to the quickbar restriction. Those who pay can craft faster, leaving those who haven't paid in the dust with crafting. So based on your examples of why TOR is P2W, let's look at some of the other freemium MMOs you mentioned in this thread: LOTRO is P2W because F2P players have a 2 gold limit, they only get a couple of trait slots, and cannot earn rest XP. Rift is P2W because subscribers get 15% more currency and daily XP/reputation boosts. Tera is P2W because subscribers get daily XP, gold, and reputation boosts. Aion is P2W because F2P players can only gather/extract a limited number of times each day, and their instance cooldowns are much longer. Subscribers will always get benefits that F2P players don't get; otherwise there would be no point in subscribing. Now you can argue that TOR has more restrictions than other games (and I would actually agree with you on that), but having restrictions doesn't make it P2W. Otherwise every freemium MMO would be P2W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 wouldn't p2w only apply to f2p (and probably b2p as well) games? any p2p game is also p2w, since you have to pay to access the game, right? there seems to be some suggesting here that swtor is not f2p, it's freemium, which is different because in a f2p game, it's free to play, and in this game, you have to pay a subscription for the complete swtor experience. maybe there needs to be a different term that requires you to pay a subscription, and pay for items from a cash shop on top of that to gain access to all elements of the game. maybe shop to win (s2w)? since we're moving from games focused on gameplay to games focused on shopping. so, p2w = pay to win. the more you spend, the better you do in-game b2p = buy to play, a box cost for the game and you don't have to pay monthly for access to content. p2p = pay to play, subscription gives you access to all content f2p = free to play, you get access to the game download and all gameplay content for free; there is typically an extra charge for cosmetic items in a cash shop freemium = limited free to play. you have to pay a subscription to gain access to all gamplay content. the game can get extra income through cosmetic purchases in a cash shop. there could be a charge to download the game or not with this model trial = very limited free to play. people are expected to pay a subscription after playing enough to see if they like the game. s2w = shop to win, the new more complicated model that obfuscates your choices. limited content for free players, but more than a trial. gameplay content is available to subscribers. the cash shop goes beyond cosmetic, to the point where subscribers are expected to buy additional items in order to get the full experience of game content. direct tie-in from cash shop to in-game economy. pushes as close to p2w as possible without crossing the line. when they do cross the line lots of people complain on the forums and they step back for 3 or 4 weeks and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tekkons Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) so, p2w = pay to win. the more you spend, the better you do in-game ... s2w = shop to win, the new more complicated model that obfuscates your choices. limited content for free players, but more than a trial. gameplay content is available to subscribers. the cash shop goes beyond cosmetic, to the point where subscribers are expected to buy additional items in order to get the full experience of game content. direct tie-in from cash shop to in-game economy. pushes as close to p2w as possible without crossing the line. when they do cross the line lots of people complain on the forums and they step back for 3 or 4 weeks and try again. +1 I dont agree with the op and p2w is exactly the above. SW:TOR is more than fair with its price models where you can easily level your toon without paying a single buck. I was free to play before i subbed and im not forced to spend hundreds or even thousands more bucke on every single char to compete with guys who do. As satisfactory validation to my my sub they even give me a monthly amount of cash shop credits (with which i bought some more inventory and bank slots). Of course you can get millions out of buying cash shop packs, but that does not give you any advantage over someone who played his toon for even a little while (ingame money is really so easy to gain in SW:TOR that this is no real issue.) Edited July 23, 2013 by Tekkons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) Again, go look at the restriction page before saying that these restrictions don't exist. Again, explain to me how my statement in any way, shape or form indicates that I believe "these restrictions do not exist"........ Did you perhaps intend to reply to someone else and just chose my quote instead? I pointed out, in pretty clear terms, that pay to win is not a label you can give the current system. Pay to easy, maybe, pay to access, sure...not pay to win. I'm going to start calling my local gas station pay to win. Might as well...it's becoming the popular meme now. If you want to argue there are too many restrictions on free players, I'll engage in that conversation. If you want to say it is the definition of pay to win I will make you a peanut butter and mayo sandwich.....and then explain why it is pay to win as well. Edited July 23, 2013 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Which is why they should rename "Free to Play" to "Glorified demo, please pay us money to be able to play the parts that make a MMO a MMO" I don't think that long a title would go over well with their marketing folks. It is more than a demo though, as you do get the complete single player experience from the original game (which while it isn't Mass Effect, isn't bad either). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dfrac Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The Cartel Market isn't - the restrictions are. You pay $15 a month and are entitled to post your opinion, no matter how stupid. Good for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 If someone wants to establish that TOR is P2W, first they need to establish that it's possible to win something. How does one "win" PvE? One doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 If someone wants to establish that TOR is P2W, first they need to establish that it's possible to win something. How does one "win" PvE? One doesn't. I win every time I launch swtor.exe. Boo-yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I win every time I launch swtor.exe. Boo-yeah! Who's in this competition with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 If someone wants to establish that TOR is P2W, first they need to establish that it's possible to win something. How does one "win" PvE? One doesn't. people can create whatever definition for both p2w and "win" that they want. if someone wants to consider this game p2w, bioware had given them fair reason to do so. if someone wants to consider this game not p2w, they are well within reason. people here are too focused on finding differences and flaws and getting upset that other people disagree with them. if you don't understand someone else's perspective, that doesn't make the other person dumb. it just means you don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 If someone wants to establish that TOR is P2W, first they need to establish that it's possible to win something. How does one "win" PvE? One doesn't. The typical usage (properly) of P2W is simply character advancement via paying extra money (and usually that being your only option). In that sense, 'winning' is simply getting a better character. While you CAN do a little of that in the CM, it's to such a minor degree I don't think it's even worth complaining about. Much better to complain about all the restrictions on an MMO for the F2P aspect - which really doesn't give you an MMO for free, but more a single player BioWare game (as intended). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I win every time I launch swtor.exe. Boo-yeah! that's a good post. it's like playing the change machine instead of the slots. if you get 4 quarters every time you put a dollar in, you win every time and there is a pretty good chance you'll leave with more money that people playing the slots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) The typical usage (properly) of P2W is simply character advancement via paying extra money (and usually that being your only option). In that sense, 'winning' is simply getting a better character. While you CAN do a little of that in the CM, it's to such a minor degree I don't think it's even worth complaining about. Much better to complain about all the restrictions on an MMO for the F2P aspect - which really doesn't give you an MMO for free, but more a single player BioWare game (as intended). There is one small actual P2W aspect in TOR. It is possible to buy an Expertise crystal in the CM, is it not? But as I said, it's not possible to win PvE, so the term "P2W" cannot even apply to PvE. people can create whatever definition for both p2w and "win" that they want. People can also create whatever definition of "nutrition" that they want, but that won't mean Diet Coke is nutritive. Edited July 23, 2013 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 There is one small actual P2W aspect in TOR. It is possible to buy an Expertise crystal in the CM, is it not? I believe there's a couple armor sets with mods installed, but don't think they're max level. Again, not even worth complaining about and the only thing related to the standard "P2W" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Who's in this competition with you? I am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 (edited) People can also create whatever definition of "nutrition" that they want, but that won't mean Diet Coke is nutritive. that's true. and people do that. in real life, different people have come to different conclusions as to what should be considered nutritious and not, often based on things like location, availability, and income. the problem that creates is that sometimes people can't communicate when there isn't a set standard for a term like that. so authoritative bodies are developed to help clarify those standards. http://www.nutrition.gov/about-us you and andryah are not authoritative sources. the world does not revolve around you, no matter how much you want it too and no matter how hard you believe it does. if i have a definition of p2w that you disagree with, that doesn't make me wrong. nobody cares what you think any more than they care what i think. what you fail to understand does not make me dumb. if there is something you don't understand, it's because you don't understand. Edited July 23, 2013 by curtkram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuuuuucky Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 There is one small actual P2W aspect in TOR. It is possible to buy an Expertise crystal in the CM, is it not? But as I said, it's not possible to win PvE, so the term "P2W" cannot even apply to PvE. People can also create whatever definition of "nutrition" that they want, but that won't mean Diet Coke is nutritive. Oh i would like to see how the community will react if Bioware will release stims and buffs that give you an advatage. You know so casuals have better chances of clearing the NiM modes and in the same time they can make them harder for those progression guilds that don't want to use those BiS stims and buffs. Bioware should give it a try. This would also be a good training for their PR guys as they could try to write more awesome blog posts that explain that this is no P2W. I would guess that it is even ok to sell the best gear and make modifications and stuff available via cc so you can optimize you stats with real money. No need for crafters. You can sell everything in the GTN of course. As nothing that is PvE content can be P2W we should also add grade 8 space ship parts to cm only. And why bother with PvP sell the best stuff in the cm. PvP is secondary content anyways so why always the headaches with new gear. Just give everyone the best gear for money and all that is left is skill. I see great times for BW so much money to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 that's a good post. it's like playing the change machine instead of the slots. if you get 4 quarters every time you put a dollar in, you win every time and there is a pretty good chance you'll leave with more money that people playing the slots. Hey, 4 is better than 1, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basreia Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Pay To Win in mmorpgs means you need to pay real money to advance your character. For example, if a game came out and I wanted to advance my character to the next level, or pay money to have all my skills automatically attuned to that level to, that would be pay to win and my character would then instantly be that level or have that skill. Or if there were certain items that were only available in the cash shop and you could NOT get them in game and they had a really significant difference and it was best in game because it was a "cash shop" item therefore it should be better, that would be pay to win. Having less quickbar slots isn't pay to win. Having a little bit less xp than a subscriber isn't pay to win. Being able to buy xp boosts because you want to level your character up a little faster isn't pay to win. Only having able to run a set number of instances or warzones a week isn't pay to win. I think you are getting confused as to what pay to win really means. Restrictions are not the same thing as a pay to win system. They are giving you the option to play the game for free and giving you a taste of the game at first hand. If you really like it, subscribe and support it If you really like it but are strapped for money somehow, then play free. If you don't like it, don't play it. But don't come on the forums and complain about how you hate it (not saying YOU are, just in general) Free restrictions aren't that big of a problem for a person to have fun with themselves and play this great game. It' just the model we have right now in MMORPGS. Long last your fun and I hope you are being happy and helpful in the game. I understand your frustrations you may have and can see why you would think restrictions are pay to win because the person who pays gets no subscriptions and in the end they get to do more than they other person, but that is not pay to win. The person paying gets more benefits than the one not paying sure, but not to the extent to where it affects anything significantly of their play style and/or character. And that is how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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