Tanking with Darkness - A PvE Guide to Darkness Assassins

[Solar_Breeze]

I don't know what spec you used when clearing Styrak NIM but I changed mine for that fight seemed to work really well due to the short term high damage parts of the fight. Our stats are basically near enough identical.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/assassin#1122123212110023322-100030223-220

Edited July 14, 2013 by Solar_Breeze

[insaneric]

Interesting spec, I'll have to try it out sometime. I ran the same as I usually do, considered taking the point in spike from out of stealth but we got a strategy working fine without it so kept it the same. We didn't have trouble with damage (burst or sustained).

 

Grats on your world first.

[Solar_Breeze]

Cheers,

 

Yeh that was very customized for that fight with the people we had, made it so that I could take every spin phase if needed.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Solar_Breeze

[Maestrodomus]

I prefer to use Shock>Wither>Discharge because it allows you to build stacks quicker considering Shock has a shorter c/d than Wither.

[insaneric]

I prefer to use Shock>Wither>Discharge because it allows you to build stacks quicker considering Shock has a shorter c/d than Wither.

Is this regarding your opening or your rotation priorities?

 

In terms of opening it's better to delay the shock for a couple of reasons:

1. You want to get your debuffs from wither and discharge on the target asap.

2. Better threat with wither, you don't want dps to be pulling off you.

You will probably get your 2nd shock in at the same time with my method if the energize procs off your first thrash.

 

 

In terms of rotation it doesn't build stacks quicker.

 

Assuming both methods get no procs and discharge is removed as it can replace a non procing thrash with no effect.

Yours: shock>wither>thrash>thrash>shock>lightning (shock still on cd)

>wither>shock>thrash>thrash>thrash>shock>lightning (repeat this line)

Mine: wither>shock>thrash>thrash>thrash>shock>lightning (repeat)

It's the same basic rotation.

 

When you introduce energize procs it works against you as you want to activate the set cooldown first so that if it energize procs you can ignore more of the cooldown.

Yours: Shock>Wither>Thrash (energize procs: CD on wither 7.5s, CD on Shock 0s)

Mine: Wither>Shock>Thrash (energize procs: CD on wither 6s, CD on Shock 0s)

 

Prioritizing shock over discharge debuff refreshing would give you stacks quicker but is not worth the trade off for the boss not having the 5% accuracy loss (note that this is not the same as using discharge on cooldown).

[Maestrodomus]

Yeah, I guess it works out to be the same. That being said, I don't think the added threat really means that much. A pull and Shock to open will lock them up 95% of the time with a taunt in waiting if someone goes on a crit streak.

[insaneric]

Getting the debuffs up is the more important part, the threat is just an added bonus. Also if you ever play with some of the top dps you'll need every ounce of threat u can get then starting the fight.

[Maestrodomus]

Holding threat is not a problem with even the tops of dps unless you're not paying attention; you rarely even need a taunt.

[insaneric]

Holding threat is not a problem with even the tops of dps unless you're not paying attention; you rarely even need a taunt.

 

I'm sorry but this isn't true, initial dps for top players is around 5.5k sometimes spiking up to 8.5k. There's nothing you can do to hold aggro against this without taunts.

[mastirkal]

As I've always done it with my tanking partner, I pull first and get one rotation, he taunts I give him 1-2 seconds after his taunt fades and taunt back, 7-8 seconds later he does the same. Wince wash and repeat until an established agro table is present.

 

This obviously doesn't work with WT and TfB 1st Phase. These fights ask you to be on top of your taunting and threat rotation.

[insaneric]

As I've always done it with my tanking partner, I pull first and get one rotation, he taunts I give him 1-2 seconds after his taunt fades and taunt back, 7-8 seconds later he does the same. Wince wash and repeat until an established agro table is present.

 

This obviously doesn't work with WT and TfB 1st Phase. These fights ask you to be on top of your taunting and threat rotation.

 

This is a good strategy, I sometimes do it my other tank depending on the fight.

 

I'd recommend anyone trying/doing anything similar to this let the healers know (in advance and when u taunt) so they can react to their best.

[kwestone]

I'm sorry but this isn't true, initial dps for top players is around 5.5k sometimes spiking up to 8.5k. There's nothing you can do to hold aggro against this without taunts.

 

I agree. My DPS will pull off my assassin or jugg if I'm not opening with a full taunt-fluffed high threat rotation. Even guarded they still pull if I am sleepwalking. Once threat has been established it is not an issue.

[Hockaday]

This is considered the best spec for Tank Sins. 39/3/4

[Hockaday]

I agree. My DPS will pull off my assassin or jugg if I'm not opening with a full taunt-fluffed high threat rotation. Even guarded they still pull if I am sleepwalking. Once threat has been established it is not an issue.

 

This depends, do you consider wither a taunt? I don't. I rarely open with a taunt, though sometimes players will burst before even 2gcds which requires a taunt.

[Hockaday]

I'm sorry but this isn't true, initial dps for top players is around 5.5k sometimes spiking up to 8.5k. There's nothing you can do to hold aggro against this without taunts.

 

This is incorrect, while taunts may be required at the opening of a fight due to dps not waiting a few moments to pop their cds, during a fight a taunt is rarely needed.

[THoK-Zeus]

@Insaneeric: I have some questions about your spreadsheet for sin tanks. It looks like your are calculating with an average accuracy from 90% for m/r dmg for defense rating. Then i dont see the accuracy debuff from discharge in your calculations and any kinetic bulwark calculations in your spreadsheet aswell.

 

For Nim tfb numbers: I've got more or less the same numbers for the 2 fights you alrdy have in your spreadsheet. Would be nice if you update your spreadsheet, so there are the right stats numbers (practically no defense rating) for tfb nim fight (for sin tanks).

 

To your start rotation:

Another Rotation would be to wait with your first use of discharge and instead use thrash to increase the probability of a faster energize proc for a faster force lightning. The reason for that would be that the only time where you can lose aggro is the start of the fight until the point you use your first force lightning with recklessness (which will hit for about 18k threat). If you use thrash one gcd earlier you will get faster to that point and increase the probability to not lose aggro.

The first 10 seconds it shouldnt normally make a difference if you have used discharge or not.

Edited July 21, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[insaneric]

This is considered the best spec for Tank Sins. 39/3/4

I'd much rather have the CDR on force speed (interrupt and cc break) than 3% damage on thrash. This is an opinion, but u I would definitely recommend it as there's so many uses.

This depends, do you consider wither a taunt? I don't. I rarely open with a taunt, though sometimes players will burst before even 2gcds which requires a taunt.

What kwestone meant by "opening with a full taunt-fluffed high threat rotation" is having a taunt near the start not straight away.

I don't consider wither a taunt and the only time I'll risk losing aggro in the first 2 gcds is if dps pull the boss or if I get a fake gcd bug.

This is incorrect, while taunts may be required at the opening of a fight due to dps not waiting a few moments to pop their cds, during a fight a taunt is rarely needed.

This is talking about the opening of a fight, so it correct.

[insaneric]

@Insaneeric: I have some questions about your spreadsheet for sin tanks. It looks like your are calculating with an average accuracy from 90% for m/r dmg for defense rating. Then i dont see the accuracy debuff from discharge in your calculations and any kinetic bulwark calculations in your spreadsheet aswell.

 

For Nim tfb numbers: I've got more or less the same numbers for the 2 fights you alrdy have in your spreadsheet. Would be nice if you update your spreadsheet, so there are the right stats numbers (practically no defense rating) for tfb nim fight (for sin tanks).

 

To your start rotation:

Another Rotation would be to wait with your first use of discharge and instead use thrash to increase the probability of a faster energize proc for a faster force lightning. The reason for that would be that the only time where you can lose aggro is the start of the fight until the point you use your first force lightning with recklessness (which will hit for about 18k threat). If you use thrash one gcd earlier you will get faster to that point and increase the probability to not lose aggro.

The first 10 seconds it shouldnt normally make a difference if you have used discharge or not.

 

Your correct about not having discharge (also wither) in the calculation's, I'll add it in when I get a chance, thanks for spotting it. I've treated bulwark as a flat 1%, while in reality it'll average out higher than this it avoids calculations showing a much higher value than it is at your squishiest point.

 

For NiM TFB numbers I should be able to analyse the other bosses from last night's run and put them in soon.

 

I don't think this should be an issue, if you're using taunt after discharge, the boss will targeting you for 6s which is enough for 3thrashes (0procs) when after this you can AoE taunt to get top threat (built off of dps's burst) then you can drop your high threat combo (recklessness + wither and harnessed darkness force lightning) to secure the lead.

[THoK-Zeus]

Your correct about not having discharge (also wither) in the calculation's, I'll add it in when I get a chance, thanks for spotting it. I've treated bulwark as a flat 1%, while in reality it'll average out higher than this it avoids calculations showing a much higher value than it is at your squishiest point.

 

For NiM TFB numbers I should be able to analyse the other bosses from last night's run and put them in soon.

 

I don't think this should be an issue, if you're using taunt after discharge, the boss will targeting you for 6s which is enough for 3thrashes (0procs) when after this you can AoE taunt to get top threat (built off of dps's burst) then you can drop your high threat combo (recklessness + wither and harnessed darkness force lightning) to secure the lead.

 

I was thinking about using this rotation for bosses where you can't afford it to waste your taunts (especially your aoe taunt), for example nim thrasher fight when you are jumping up to the snipers and need the aoe taunt therefore,and shouldnt lose threat to thrasher.

Edited July 21, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[Hockaday]

I'd much rather have the CDR on force speed (interrupt and cc break) than 3% damage on thrash. This is an opinion, but u I would definitely recommend it as there's so many uses.

 

 

Most have found the Reduction on those abilities rather pointless, and in practice so have I. I can't remember a time they would have come in handy. While thrash adds to your threat. I'd rather have the threat myself.

[THoK-Zeus]

Most have found the Reduction on those abilities rather pointless, and in practice so have I. I can't remember a time they would have come in handy. While thrash adds to your threat. I'd rather have the threat myself.

 

The reduction for force speed is a must for kiting sunder (dont think you can do it in nim without a reduction in force Speed cd as you will be ensnared all the time), its very good for kephess to get to the next laser, for Operations Chief on nim to reach it in time, for Titan 6 as its way better to have double force speed force for Huge Grenade/Launch, Dash'rode when sth turns wrong, Olok for adds and Boss (for example kiting the droid circles away from the mdps and then take the spawning olok), the writing horror nim when you have to run to the next position after a burrow and shortly after that the jealous male spawns far away from you, Dread Guards nim on last phase its important to kite kel sara as much as possible and run away from raid as much as possible, you will use your force speed on cooldown probably, terror from beyond where you can double speed back to your position when you have to place another healing circle near healers.

 

Interrupts are needed for op9-adds so you can Interrupt all the stuff.

Stunbreaker is so useful for Titan as you have 4 sec cd on it and not 34 sec when you mess up with the stun.

 

That's reasons for 10 out of the 12 bosses in tfb/sv to have the reduction time for the abilities (probably there are more reasons).

Edited July 22, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[insaneric]

I was thinking about using this rotation for bosses where you can't afford it to waste your taunts (especially your aoe taunt), for example nim thrasher fight when you are jumping up to the snipers and need the aoe taunt therefore,and shouldnt lose threat to thrasher.

This seems a reasonable point to use it..

For NiM Thrasher but I've been doing the same rotation just changing my taunt to a different spot.

I use the initial taunt until just before popping recklessness. If there's some lucky crits (eg. merc with tracer + heatseeker) I may drop aggro to them. Taunting back straight away has given me enough threat to hold on all the times so far but it's possible if they keep getting lucky it could pull it back..

[Hockaday]

The reduction for force speed is a must for kiting sunder (dont think you can do it in nim without a reduction in force Speed cd as you will be ensnared all the time), its very good for kephess to get to the next laser, for Operations Chief on nim to reach it in time, for Titan 6 as its way better to have double force speed force for Huge Grenade/Launch, Dash'rode when sth turns wrong, Olok for adds and Boss (for example kiting the droid circles away from the mdps and then take the spawning olok), the writing horror nim when you have to run to the next position after a burrow and shortly after that the jealous male spawns far away from you, Dread Guards nim on last phase its important to kite kel sara as much as possible and run away from raid as much as possible, you will use your force speed on cooldown probably, terror from beyond where you can double speed back to your position when you have to place another healing circle near healers.

 

Interrupts are needed for op9-adds so you can Interrupt all the stuff.

Stunbreaker is so useful for Titan as you have 4 sec cd on it and not 34 sec when you mess up with the stun.

 

That's reasons for 10 out of the 12 bosses in tfb/sv to have the reduction time for the abilities (probably there are more reasons).

 

I admit I haven't done NM, but in the other modes you don't need force speed at -all- to kite sunder. Can practically RP walk it. Maybe the number crunchers will change their mind, so maybe put an asterisk for NM content? Sub NM it's for sure not needed.

 

As for Titan and Op 9, I still don't see a real need for it. I'll have to revist that on NM, but currently, no real need. I do like the idea of them though, maybe I'll try it out again sometime.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Hockaday

[THoK-Zeus]

I admit I haven't done NM, but in the other modes you don't need force speed at -all- to kite sunder. Can practically RP walk it. Maybe the number crunchers will change their mind, so maybe put an asterisk for NM content? Sub NM it's for sure not needed.

 

As for Titan and Op 9, I still don't see a real need for it. I'll have to revist that on NM, but currently, no real need. I do like the idea of them though, maybe I'll try it out again sometime.

 

On HM/SM you can use force speed to place a phase walk under horic without getting hit by sunder. You have aswell the advantage that (with the reduced time on force speed), that the time between him casting his ensnare and your force speed cooldown (which frees you from the ensnare) is very short, so that you will get max. 1 hit.

Their may be no need to do it (to complete the encounter) but it is certainly waaaay more useful then a 0,6% increase in dmg.

 

@Insaneric: After having a closer look to the 2 ratios between m/r and f/t e/k dmg you alrdy posted, i see a big difference between the calculations i made: TWH: 0,662 DG: 0,516 Op9: 0,790 Kephess: 0,293 TFB: 0,824

Our twh-ratio is more or less the same, but i see a huge difference for the dg number (your 0,367 ratio to my 0,516). Both of these numbers indicate zero defense rating for sins at this fight, but the difference of the numbers is nevertheless really big. Are the numbers you are giving in your spreadsheet post-migation or pre-migation numbers?

 

Same goes for Titan and Op9. Thers no actual need to use the abilities but it's an advantage.

 

I give you another point of view: Thers no need to spec into wither and harnessed darkness as a sin tank you can still complete hm/sm sv without them. But nevertheless that would be a disadvantage, such as not having a reduced cooldown on force speed for sunder kiting.

 

Edit: @Insaneric: About the 2 numbers you alrdy posted for nim tfb: The calculations i did for the ratio between m/r and f/t e/k attacks (TWH: 0,662 DG: 0,516 Op9: 0,790 Kephess: 0,293 TFB: 0,824), have some difference to the values you posted. Our twh-ratio is more or less identical (0,677 to 0,662), but your m/r to f/t ratio differs a lot with my results (0,367 to 0,516). Both of the results indicate zero defense rating for sins at this fight but the difference in numbers is nevertheless really big. Are the numbers in your spreadsheet post-migation numbers or pre-migation numbers?

Edited July 22, 2013 by THoK-Zeus

[PyrusBlaze]

Seems like Dark Sin / Kin Shadow focuses more on damage than the other two tanks. AoE comes handy, but it's survival depends more on self heals than defense. I personally think the Tree needs a little bit more defensive skills. Or they would at least make Insulation for Dark Charge too but at a 7.5-15% rate. (Or maybe that's kind of OP)