Abilities hitting through shroud breaks the current state of PvP

[funkiestj]

Did Pistols ask about this one at the cantina event? This is up there with not having a solution for RWZ disconnects (allow reconnects, LDO).

[funkiestj]

(bump)

The next shadow/assassin representative should have this issue as questions 1, 2 and 3. It is one thing to be damaged through shroud but to be CCed through shroud is obnoxious. You might as well make our CC break fail 5% of the time if you are trying to make the game less fun.

Edited August 13, 2013 by funkiestj

[Zunayson]

(bump)

The next shadow/assassin representative should have this issue as questions 1, 2 and 3. It is one thing to be damaged through shroud but to be CCed through shroud is obnoxious. You might as well make our CC break fail 5% of the time if you are trying to make the game less fun.

 

Honestly these games should do away with anything RNG. Let's be honest, there is exactly one fully optimal set up for stats no matter what.... you just have to find them.

 

No missing or crits or damage ranges. Would make it a lot better.

[Gren-Aluren]

Force Shroud tooltip:

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

100% resist means there is no chance a force or tech move hits you. that is the design behind Shroud and Resilience. someone above mentioned accuracy. accuracy has no influence whatsoever if you have full immunity to the move. 100% means 100%. Please fix this.

 

100% resistence increase is not the same as immunity. It's working as intended just people don't happen to understand how the two roll system seems to work apparently.

 

Resistance is the same as defense but only for the Force/Tech attack type. Accuracy decreases an opponents defense.

[funkiestj]

Honestly these games should do away with anything RNG. Let's be honest, there is exactly one fully optimal set up for stats no matter what.... you just have to find them.

 

No missing or crits or damage ranges. Would make it a lot better.

 

You're being sarcastic, right? I disagree with both the straight and sarcastic reading of your comment.

 

The question underlying all changes is "does this change (or set of changes) make the game more fun or less fun to play"?

 

Consider the following hypothetical change set:

1. 5% of the time hold the line fails (e.g. you can be rooted and snared)
   
2. 5% of the time your CC break fails
   
3. 5% of the time your mana restore fails
   
4. 5% of the time force barrier fails. Alternative: each tick of something has a 5% chance to get through FB (e.g. fire pit)
   
5. 5% of the time your taunt fails.
   

 

#5 is particularly illustrative as PTS had this behavior (not 5% but taunts could miss), it was deemed undesirable and fixed.

 

With the current force shroud set up, it is bad to burn a CC on someone that you know has force shroud up because 95% of time you are wasting the ability and lost 1 GCD you could have been dealing damage (or rooting) yet 5% of the time your bad decision is made into the best possible outcome. To me that simply is not "more fun" than the pre 1.4 behavior of shroud always working. You could make this same argument about Force Barrier if we gave it a 5% chance to fail.

 

There is an optimum amount of randomness -- it is fun to have the game be a little more like poker than like chess but too much randomness and it becomes roulette, which is the stupidest game around. Having damage, crit and shield rolls is fine.

Edited August 13, 2013 by funkiestj

[NoTomorrow]

You're being sarcastic, right? I disagree with both the straight and sarcastic reading of your comment.

 

The question underlying all changes is "does this change (or set of changes) make the game more fun or less fun to play"?

 

Consider the following hypothetical change set:

1. 5% of the time hold the line fails (e.g. you can be rooted and snared)
   
2. 5% of the time your CC break fails
   
3. 5% of the time your mana restore fails
   
4. 5% of the time force barrier fails. Alternative: each tick of something has a 5% chance to get through FB (e.g. fire pit)
   
5. 5% of the time your taunt fails.
   

 

#5 is particularly illustrative as PTS had this behavior (not 5% but taunts could miss), it was deemed undesirable and fixed.

 

With the current force shroud set up, it is bad to burn a CC on someone that you know has force shroud up because 95% of time you are wasting the ability and lost 1 GCD you could have been dealing damage (or rooting) yet 5% of the time your bad decision is made into the best possible outcome. To me that simply is not "more fun" than the pre 1.4 behavior of shroud always working. You could make this same argument about Force Barrier if we gave it a 5% chance to fail.

 

There is an optimum amount of randomness -- it is fun to have the game be a little more like poker than like chess but too much randomness and it becomes roulette, which is the stupidest game around. Having damage, crit and shield rolls is fine.

 

you are playing a game that has the most random element of all possible: damage spread and crits.

[Zunayson]

you are playing a game that has the most random element of all possible: damage spread and crits.

 

unfortunately even the new "realistic" FPS games bring in RNG. Stupid recoil. UNREAL TOURNAMENT 4LYFE

 

I heard once from a wise man that RNG, rock paper scissors, etc. were to cater to bads.

 

By the way, I was being completely legit. With taking out crit/surge/range, tooltips would show the average, and equipping critical/surge would just change your average damage by using the ever-famous

 

( critical ) * ( surge + 1 ) * ( Average damage )

 

What you'd see then is that there'd be one gear set that is most optimal. Currently, on average, there is a most optimal gear set, and it is the set that is most optimal with the proposed "average tooltip numbers" change.

 

I just don't like putting my competition at the mercy of a computer's pseudorandom number generator. I used to play FPS games and had a very reliable 5 kpm every time :S

Edited August 14, 2013 by Zunayson

[funkiestj]

By the way, I was being completely legit. With taking out crit/surge/range, tooltips would show the average, and equipping critical/surge would just change your average damage by using the ever-famous

 

...

 

I just don't like putting my competition at the mercy of a computer's pseudorandom number generator.

 

Thanks for clarifying. We disagree on the point of RNG. I think some RNG makes it fun. In any event, BW is not likely to change the crit and damage system.

[NogueiraA]

If there's 5% to hit, do not write a tooltip saying that you have 100% chance to resist.

 

I'm done with this game.

[Gren-Aluren]

It says it increases resistance by 100% not that you have 100% immunity. Melee and Ranged attacks still hit through Scoundrel's dodge ability because of Accuracy; which is the mirror to Shroud.

[NoTomorrow]

unfortunately even the new "realistic" FPS games bring in RNG. Stupid recoil. UNREAL TOURNAMENT 4LYFE

 

I heard once from a wise man that RNG, rock paper scissors, etc. were to cater to bads.

 

By the way, I was being completely legit. With taking out crit/surge/range, tooltips would show the average, and equipping critical/surge would just change your average damage by using the ever-famous

 

( critical ) * ( surge + 1 ) * ( Average damage )

 

What you'd see then is that there'd be one gear set that is most optimal. Currently, on average, there is a most optimal gear set, and it is the set that is most optimal with the proposed "average tooltip numbers" change.

 

I just don't like putting my competition at the mercy of a computer's pseudorandom number generator. I used to play FPS games and had a very reliable 5 kpm every time :S

 

competitive TF2 has got a server variable to allow for disabling damage spread and critical hits. So yes, when people play competive they do remove this. Hell, even shotgun pellets are no longer randomly distributed.

[Zunayson]

competitive TF2 has got a server variable to allow for disabling damage spread and critical hits. So yes, when people play competive they do remove this. Hell, even shotgun pellets are no longer randomly distributed.

 

Albeit offtopic, I didn't realize the older games actually had individual shotgun pellets? I would essentially figure out how much area the circle covers the person (Like a large circular crosshair).

 

 

Just to let you guys know how much mercy RNG I'm at -

 

I play carnage with dual swords. I can gore + ravage someone, and if it all hits and crits, which it's done before, they don't survive the scream that goes afterwards.

 

Other times, I miss a lot, and hit like a wet noodle.

 

It's just not fun with those extremes. It'd be OP if it crit each time, and its UP if it doesn't.

 

Let's do balance and take away RNG.

 

 

Anyways that's not gonna happen

 

I agree that shroud's fail chance is bad.

[funkiestj]

It says it increases resistance by 100% not that you have 100% immunity.

 

First, what the tooltip says and what it does are two different things. It actually increases your resistance by +200%. Applying normal accuracy - resistance math, no tech/force ability should hit you.

 

Second, read the BW response in another thread that the original poster links to.

 

I

In other instances while Force Shroud is active and you know that you are being hit by a tech or Force attack, the issue is most likely that players and NPCs always have at least a 5% chance to hit with any ability, regardless of how high your defense is to that type of ability. So while Force Shroud is active, there is always at least a 5% chance that you could be hit by any tech or Force attack.

 

I don't like this anymore than you do. I know it's extremely frustrating to be hit by an ability that, for all intents and purposes, should not have hit you. Unfortunately, fixing this issue is not as simple as it seems, but I'll take a deeper look to see if there is anything we can do about it.

 

So, BW says it should not have hit you yet they're are not smart enough to make it work the way they think it should.

[funkiestj]

(a worthy necro)

 

any ETA on getting this fixed?

[Aluvi]

In Biowares defense.. or to play Devils advocate.. vanish was broken on WoW for years before it worked properly.

[Hei_Atzfel]

Force barrier tooltip does not state that it increases chance to resist attacks by 100% tho.

Force barrier tooltip actually states it makes the user immune. That's a difference. (same with sniper entrench, jugg unremitting, etc.)

 

100% resistance can be countered by 100% accuracy. Immunity can not.

 

But the thing is that, while shroud's tooltip says 100%, it ACTUALLY gives 200% resistance. I saw the screenshot someone posted in this thread and tested it for myself, got the exact same result. With a 200% resist a force/tech attack should never, under any circumstances, go through shroud.

[funkiestj]

But the thing is that, while shroud's tooltip says 100%, it ACTUALLY gives 200% resistance. I saw the screenshot someone posted in this thread and tested it for myself, got the exact same result. With a 200% resist a force/tech attack should never, under any circumstances, go through shroud.

 

Right. Tooltips are written in english by humans. Thinks like combat logs and character sheet displays of stats like resistance are unambiguous.

 

BW regularly makes corrections to tooltip text without changing actual game mechanics.

[Kalular]

Actually it's in the name: FORCE AND TECH ATTACKS. This is why things like Low Slash (Non-tech abilities) and Flashbang (also not guided by a damage statistic) can hit you through force shroud. Because they don't have a DAMAGE TYPE. Quit QQing and learn what your abilities actually do. Since Flashbang doesn't have ANY type of damage to work with, it effectively doesn't have a damage type.

So Force and Tech attacks you are 100% resistant to, so melee and non-white damage stuns can still work through force shroud and resilience.

[Morde_]

The officials MUST refine their post.

 

Cause IF they ninja made constant 5 % hit chance in hit result table, than:

 

1. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sorc/sage force barrier, which is totally based on dodge/resist (gives 20 000 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

2. There must be 5 % chance to hit with white attack through dodge/evasion (gives 200 % ranged/melee dodge). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

3. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sniper's covered escape (gives 200 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

 

For those who don't want to read 20 pages of a necro'd thread, here's the one post which sums it up best.

 

Shroud is broken compared to these abilities.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Morde_

[cycao]

Actually it's in the name: FORCE AND TECH ATTACKS. This is why things like Low Slash (Non-tech abilities) and Flashbang (also not guided by a damage statistic) can hit you through force shroud. Because they don't have a DAMAGE TYPE. Quit QQing and learn what your abilities actually do. Since Flashbang doesn't have ANY type of damage to work with, it effectively doesn't have a damage type.

So Force and Tech attacks you are 100% resistant to, so melee and non-white damage stuns can still work through force shroud and resilience.

 

lolokei...

 

 

For those who don't want to read 20 pages of a necro'd thread, here's the one post which sums it up best.

 

...and this

Edited January 8, 2014 by cycao

[funkiestj]

Actually it's in the name: FORCE AND TECH ATTACKS. This is why things like Low Slash (Non-tech abilities) and Flashbang (also not guided by a damage statistic) can hit you through force shroud. Because they don't have a DAMAGE TYPE.

 

It is left as an exercise to the student to explain why the quoted post is completely wrong...

 

Presumably no response from BW means they are ignoring this issue so they can instead reduce the pushback on spell casters in the next release.

[Vodrin]

For those who don't want to read 20 pages of a necro'd thread, here's the one post which sums it up best.

 

Shroud is broken compared to these abilities.

 

Maybe. It depends on whether or not it is intended to be a 100% resist boost or 200%. If it is intended to be a 200% boost, then it is indeed broken. If not then it is most likely working as intended. Flashbang is indeed a tech ability, but if that healer has even a 101% tech accuracy (quite likely), then there can still be the extremely rare case where you can be mezzed with shroud active. If it is supposed to be +200% resist though it is broken.

[Zunayson]

Maybe. It depends on whether or not it is intended to be a 100% resist boost or 200%. If it is intended to be a 200% boost, then it is indeed broken. If not then it is most likely working as intended. Flashbang is indeed a tech ability, but if that healer has even a 101% tech accuracy (quite likely), then there can still be the extremely rare case where you can be mezzed with shroud active. If it is supposed to be +200% resist though it is broken.

 

A hardcore, experience and skill-based system, to lose that huttball match because you failed the 1% test.

 

much skill

 

such hardcore

 

very competitive

 

wow

Edited January 8, 2014 by Zunayson

[funkiestj]

Maybe. It depends on whether or not it is intended to be a 100% resist boost or 200%. If it is intended to be a 200% boost, then it is indeed broken.

 

I see you (understandably) grunched. read this linked post from the original post.

 

In other instances while Force Shroud is active and you know that you are being hit by a tech or Force attack, the issue is most likely that players and NPCs always have at least a 5% chance to hit with any ability, regardless of how high your defense is to that type of ability. So while Force Shroud is active, there is always at least a 5% chance that you could be hit by any tech or Force attack.

 

I don't like this anymore than you do. I know it's extremely frustrating to be hit by an ability that, for all intents and purposes, should not have hit you. Unfortunately, fixing this issue is not as simple as it seems, but I'll take a deeper look to see if there is anything we can do about it.

David Demaree | Associate Designer

Edited January 8, 2014 by funkiestj

[Kalular]

You're all retarded. Force and Tech attacks = Yellow damage.

In the tooltip it clearly states "Force and tech attacks" NOT "Force, tech, melee and ranged attacks" so therefore, it is NOT broken, it is working as it should. As I have stated in a previous post, Flashbang doesn't do damage, so therefore it is completely normal for it to hit you through force shroud. Low Slash does melee damage (WHITE damage) and so therefore, is NOT under Yellow damage which is Force and Tech attacks. It would be just like saying "Oh...so my evasion doesn't block project or shock? THATS BAD FIX IT NAO" or some other crap. Let the only pvp developer fix actual issues like smashmonkeys and leave a perfectly functioning ability alone.