Abilities hitting through shroud breaks the current state of PvP

[anwg]

It's lag and animation delay. If an ability is already "in the air travelling to you" when you activate shroud, you will be affected but shroud goes on cooldown.

[funkiestj]

It's lag and animation delay. If an ability is already "in the air travelling to you" when you activate shroud, you will be affected but shroud goes on cooldown.

 

shouldn't a combat log definitively answer what the server order of events was?

 

For the record, I'm in the camp that says resilience should not fail 5% of the time.

 

Also of interest: look at the character sheet resistance when Force Barrier is up... I think FB grants something like 2000% resistance. I'm guessing this is because things like the fire trap are suppose to overcome resilience but not force barrier.

 

Also, how about some folks do some tests with CC vs resilience. and report back how many iterations of the test they ran and the results.

 

test procedure

• spec shadow (assassin) tank for 5 second resil
  
• shadow pops resilience
  
• attacker waits 1 second after he sees resilience
  
• attacker uses CC on Mr. resil that should be blocked.
  

The above is designed to avoid any possibility of lag and frame of reference issues

 

EDIT: BW, if resilience gives +200% resistance, fix the *********** tooltip! kthxbai.

Edited July 10, 2013 by funkiestj

[islander]

Force Shroud tooltip:

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

100% resist means there is no chance a force or tech move hits you. that is the design behind Shroud and Resilience. someone above mentioned accuracy. accuracy has no influence whatsoever if you have full immunity to the move. 100% means 100%. Please fix this.

 

If this is the actual intent, they should word it differently, imho.

In a game that allow you to increase accuracy past 100% to reduce your opponents defenses, Shroud should suggest "for 3 seconds you are completely unhittable, accuracy regardless".

 

I realize this doesn't apply to Wakalord's example specifically, as ranked scoundrel healers don't use accuracy mods...but just wanted to mention this.

[TheOneWag]

At least make our abilities work properly.

 

Meanwhile 95% of the time, you can go stand on a Sniper / Slinger or Mando / Merc's face for about 6 seconds without any CC against you, and most of the time it's all you'll need.

 

Lol, what's he going to do, pop Overrides / HTL and try to run? Oh that's right, he's only immune to snares and slows, not being raped with a lightsaber.

 

Assassins / Shadows hard counter plenty of other classes and have nothing to complain about.

Edited July 10, 2013 by TheOneWag

[BambulaGTS]

The officials MUST refine their post.

 

Cause IF they ninja made constant 5 % hit chance in hit result table, than:

 

1. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sorc/sage force barrier, which is totally based on dodge/resist (gives 20 000 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

2. There must be 5 % chance to hit with white attack through dodge/evasion (gives 200 % ranged/melee dodge). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

3. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sniper's covered escape (gives 200 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

[vermura]

Stavroz is correct. Accuracy reduces the chance to resist, and it works even vs. force shroud.

 

Test it yourself.

[Morde_]

Meanwhile 95% of the time, you can go stand on a Sniper / Slinger or Mando / Merc's face for about 6 seconds without any CC against you, and most of the time it's all you'll need.

 

Lol, what's he going to do, pop Overrides / HTL and try to run? Oh that's right, he's only immune to snares and slows, not being raped with a lightsaber.

 

Assassins / Shadows hard counter plenty of other classes and have nothing to complain about.

 

The issue isn't regarding an assassin fighting a tryhard commando dps.

 

The issue is that competitive rwz games are being won/lost over an unclear mechanic, because of CC caps.

 

Bumping this for a yellow post to hopefully explain the mechanics here.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Morde_

[Morde_]

The officials MUST refine their post.

 

Cause IF they ninja made constant 5 % hit chance in hit result table, than:

 

1. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sorc/sage force barrier, which is totally based on dodge/resist (gives 20 000 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

2. There must be 5 % chance to hit with white attack through dodge/evasion (gives 200 % ranged/melee dodge). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

3. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sniper's covered escape (gives 200 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

 

 

This is what needs to be commented on by a yellow post, please.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Morde_

[DarthOvertone]

Assassins / Shadows hard counter plenty of other classes and have nothing to complain about.

 

If an ability isn't working correctly, then it needs to be fixed. Doesn't really matter which class it impacts.

[Luckeyduckey]

You're getting CC'd by active abilities, not Force or Tech. L2read.

[TyeWebb]

If the ability is working correctly and there is a 5% chance of failure the ability needs to be changed. Competitive games should not be decided based on RNG. To have a situation where you can play it right and do the same thing 20 times and know that 1/20 of those times you are going to lose because of some random roll you have no control over is not good for any competitive game.

[Zunayson]

If the ability is working correctly and there is a 5% chance of failure the ability needs to be changed. Competitive games should not be decided based on RNG. To have a situation where you can play it right and do the same thing 20 times and know that 1/20 of those times you are going to lose because of some random roll you have no control over is not good for any competitive game.

 

welcome to mmos. Where RNG, gear, cooldowns, GCDs, etc. were created so its not an action FPS

 

The officials MUST refine their post.

 

Cause IF they ninja made constant 5 % hit chance in hit result table, than:

 

1. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sorc/sage force barrier, which is totally based on dodge/resist (gives 20 000 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

2. There must be 5 % chance to hit with white attack through dodge/evasion (gives 200 % ranged/melee dodge). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

3. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sniper's covered escape (gives 200 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

 

I've takedown execute'd an operative with evasion up.

 

I know in WoW, you cant dodge attacks from behind. Not sure if the same mechanic is in this game.

 

Force Shroud tooltip:

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

100% resist means there is no chance a force or tech move hits you. that is the design behind Shroud and Resilience. someone above mentioned accuracy. accuracy has no influence whatsoever if you have full immunity to the move. 100% means 100%. Please fix this.

 

100% dodge means you cannot be hit

100% accuracy means you can be hit

 

As a wise Mr. Harry Plinkett once said, "So take your pick, idiot"

 

also

 

Now, I know you meant that the design was a complete immunity. The tooltip is in english so they give us the stupid 100% version instead of the technical version. Technical tooltips are always better ("Lowers threat by a moderate amount")!

Edited July 10, 2013 by Zunayson

[Sharee]

The officials MUST refine their post.

 

Cause IF they ninja made constant 5 % hit chance in hit result table, than:

 

1. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sorc/sage force barrier, which is totally based on dodge/resist (gives 20 000 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it..

 

Force barrier tooltip does not state that it increases chance to resist attacks by 100% tho.

Force barrier tooltip actually states it makes the user immune. That's a difference. (same with sniper entrench, jugg unremitting, etc.)

 

100% resistance can be countered by 100% accuracy. Immunity can not.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Sharee

[Jadescythe]

If the ability is working correctly and there is a 5% chance of failure the ability needs to be changed. Competitive games should not be decided based on RNG. To have a situation where you can play it right and do the same thing 20 times and know that 1/20 of those times you are going to lose because of some random roll you have no control over is not good for any competitive game.

 

In a game filled with proc relics, it will always be decided by RNG. Just sayin'

[Gondolindhrim]

Force barrier tooltip does not state that it increases chance to resist attacks by 100% tho.

Force barrier tooltip actually states it makes the user immune. That's a difference. (same with sniper entrench, jugg unremitting, etc.)

 

100% resistance can be countered by 100% accuracy. Immunity can not.

You can't have blind faith in tooltips. They're supposed to explain to players what an ability does, not how. Force Barrier accomplishes its perceived immunity by granting the caster so much defense/resistance that no incoming attack will land.

What BambulaGTS is saying is spot on. If there's "always a 5% chance to be hit", that should apply to Evasion and Force Barrier too, but I don't know of anyone who's ever seen that happen. I don't buy it.

[TyeWebb]

In a game filled with proc relics, it will always be decided by RNG. Just sayin'

 

What's great is that one day there will be a perfect storm of events where someone gets CC'ed through shroud and the capper gets interrupted by someone's relic, RNG justice.

[Sharee]

You can't have blind faith in tooltips.

 

Tooltip says it's 100% resistance increase instead of immunity. A dev says its not supposed to be immunity. IN-GAME evidence shows it's not immunity. What more do you need?

 

What BambulaGTS is saying is spot on. If there's "always a 5% chance to be hit", that should apply to Evasion and Force Barrier too, but I don't know of anyone who's ever seen that happen. I don't buy it.

 

You cut the dev response short. The full text is "players and NPCs always have at least a 5% chance to hit with any ability, regardless of how high your defense is to that type of ability."

 

Note the underlined part. He is saying there is always a 5% chance to hit regardless of defense, not regardless of immunity. Defense and immunity are different things. Defense can be defeated, immunity can't. That's why the tooltips differentiate between the two.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Sharee

[JackNader]

When activating Dodge or shroud, the tool tip adds 200% to either defense or resist chance.

 

Standard accuracy is 90% for ranged and melee and 100% for force attacks

 

In the case of dodge :=

 

90% chance to hit - 5% defence - 200% dodge chance = 115% chance to dodge .. AKA not happening. You would need 106% accuracy to have even a slight chance of landing an attack. I can never ever recall being hit by white damage through dodge.

 

In the case of shroud :=

 

Unlike dodge, there is no natural resistance.

 

100% accuracy - 200% resistance = 100% resistance. Note that ALL characters will have greater than 100% force accuracy. 101% - 200% = 99% resistance. This is where the issue is. Because there is no natural resistance and force attacks have greater accuracy, shroud will never grant you complete immunity. IMO this is ********, but whatever.

[Martinjwest]

To be honest it is an op ability anyway. It ruins huttball as it makes you pretty much 99% the best ball carrier

[Gondolindhrim]

Note the underlined part. He is saying there is always a 5% chance to hit regardless of defense, not regardless of immunity. Defense and immunity are different things. Defense can be defeated, immunity can't. That's why the tooltips differentiate between the two.

Except if you open your character sheet with Force Barrier active, you have 20k Defense/Resist. It grants "immunity" through defense/resist. The only difference between Force Barrier and Force Shroud is the resistance value (200 for Shroud, 20k for Barrier), apart from that they're mechanically the same. And even if they were, how would you explain Evasion? People aren't landing Melee/Ranged attacks through Evasion, which is also mechanically identical to Force Shroud but adds Defense instead of Resistance.

[Gondolindhrim]

100% accuracy - 200% resistance = 100% resistance. Note that ALL characters will have greater than 100% force accuracy. 101% - 200% = 99% resistance. This is where the issue is. Because there is no natural resistance and force attacks have greater accuracy, shroud will never grant you complete immunity. IMO this is ********, but whatever.

Incorrect. Even if there is no natural resistance, it's still only Accuracy values above 100% that reduce the target's resistance. So if attacked by someone with 101% Force/Tech Accuracy while Shroud is active, the math would be 200 - 1 = 199% resistance. The ability adds a ludicrous amount of resistance by design, because certain PvE boss abilities have very high accuracy values.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Gondolindhrim

[JackNader]

sighs @ Gondolindhrim

 

Did you even read what I wrote? The whole reason only values "above" 100% accuracy reduce resistance /dodge is because of the math I stated.

[Sharee]

Except if you open your character sheet with Force Barrier active, you have 20k Defense/Resist. It grants "immunity" through defense/resist.

 

Didn't you just tell me not to have 100% faith in tooltips yourself a couple of posts higher?

 

Yes, the character sheet shows a 20K resistance value for barrier. Doesn't necessarily mean a thing. It might not even be used for anything. Case in point: shroud shows 200% and attacks still get through.

 

The only difference between Force Barrier and Force Shroud is the resistance value (200 for Shroud, 20k for Barrier), apart from that they're mechanically the same.

 

The only thing you base this claim on is a character sheet number. You have no idea what the mechanic behind the barrier immunity actually is, unless you work as a programmer for bioware.

 

 

And even if they were, how would you explain Evasion? People aren't landing Melee/Ranged attacks through Evasion, which is also mechanically identical to Force Shroud but adds Defense instead of Resistance.

 

How do you know evasion does not fail against melee attacks the same as shroud does against tech ones?

 

I haven't ever noticed shroud not working and i've had a shadow since release. I think its quite possible that evasion does get penetrated, but rarely enough that people don't notice(especially as evasion does not block CC, so it is not as noticeable when it fails as a failed shroud is)

[Sharee]

sighs @ Gondolindhrim

 

Did you even read what I wrote? The whole reason only values "above" 100% accuracy reduce resistance /dodge is because of the math I stated.

 

Gondolindhrim is right in this case and your math was wrong.

 

101%-200% is not 99% as you wrote, but -99%

[Gondolindhrim]

Yes, I read it. You write:

Because there is no natural resistance and force attacks have greater accuracy, shroud will never grant you complete immunity.

This is not true. Force attacks have the same accuracy as any other ability, basic attacks aside.