Abilities hitting through shroud breaks the current state of PvP

[EatenByDistance]

While I normally make walls of text, give detailed examples and use thorough reasoning in my forum posts, I am going to be considerably more direct here.

 

Force shroud is not resisting abilities in key moments of warzones. This is not working as intended and creates a huge imbalance in a CC-dominated metagame.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/wifileague/c/2553500

 

A dev post was brought to my attention while I was streaming this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6467203#post6467203

 

The developer response makes no sense. Here's why:

the issue is most likely that players and NPCs always have at least a 5% chance to hit with any ability, regardless of how high your defense is to that type of ability. So while Force Shroud is active, there is always at least a 5% chance that you could be hit by any tech or Force attack.

Defense dictates your ability to dodge/parry abilities. Force shroud gives you a 100% resist. No tooltip indicates that defense and resist are the same statistic.

 

I can pop shroud in a big mid fight and resist literally dozens of different damaging abilities/dotsover the course of three seconds. I refuse to believe that I got exceptionally lucky during the hundreds of times this has happened, but I often get CC'd via grenades, flashbangs and saps with horrific frequency.

 

Either change the tooltip to reflect how the ability works or fix the ability, because this is just embarrassing.

 

The PvP community puts up with a lot of crap: no content updates, balance changes that worsen the game, a terrible backend that causes rampant D/Cs and archaic warzone design.

 

At least make our abilities work properly.

 

-

 

Posts that devs/people should note:

 

Even if it is working as intended, the very low chance that something hits through it in a mainfight will rarely make the difference, so why would it work that way?

 

On the other hand, if it means that I get unfairly sapped...That isn't skill. That's just atrocious luck. This is an MMO, I expect there to be RNG like crits and procs and the like, but there is a limit. This is it. It shouldn't work this way. It's not a matter of "I think this class is overpowered nerf please." It's a matter of needless luck. If shroud is currently working "as intended," then the intended way is dumb and should be changed.

 

Cause IF they ninja made constant 5 % hit chance in hit result table, than:

 

1. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sorc/sage force barrier, which is totally based on dodge/resist (gives 20 000 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

2. There must be 5 % chance to hit with white attack through dodge/evasion (gives 200 % ranged/melee dodge). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

3. There must be 5 % chance to penetrate sniper's covered escape (gives 200 % dodge/resist). Yet I have not managed to hit through it, and there is no reports about it.

 

 

If I have 105% accuracy and hit someone with 20% defense the target has effectively 15% defense (read the tool tip)

 

the same with force tech accuracy. If i have 105% Force accuracy and someone hits shroud they have 100% resist so their EFFECTIVE resist is 95%.

 

thats the 5% chance to bypass shroud

 

hoodrat, the one who flashbanged me, doesn't run accuracy enhancements on his scoundrel healer.

 

Because, y'know. He's a scoundrel healer.

Edited July 10, 2013 by EatenByDistance

[Lojdkvist]

QQ

 

5char

[Stavroz]

While I normally make walls of text, give detailed examples and use thorough reasoning in my forum posts, I am going to be straight here.

 

Force shroud is not resisting abilities in key moments of warzones. This is not working as intended and creates a huge imbalance in a CC-dominated metagame.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/wifileague/c/2553500

 

A dev post was brought to my attention while I was streaming this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6467203#post6467203

 

The developer response makes no sense. Here's why:

 

Defense dictates your ability to dodge/parry abilities. Force shroud gives you a 100% resist. No tooltip indicates that defense and resist are the same statistic.

 

I can pop shroud in a big mid fight and resist literally dozens of different damaging abilities/dotsover the course of three seconds. I refuse to believe that I got exceptionally lucky during the hundreds of times this has happened, but I often get CC'd via grenades, flashbangs and saps with horrific frequency.

 

Either change the tooltip to reflect how the ability works properly or fix the ability, because this is just embarrassing.

 

The PvP community puts up with a lot of crap: no content updates, balance changes that worsen the game, a terrible backend that causes rampant D/Cs and archaic warzone design.

 

At least make our abilities work properly.

 

Its not a bug its working as intended. Weather we like it or not is a different story.

 

Accuracy decreases ppls defenses

 

EG

If I have 105% accuracy and hit someone with 20% defense the target has effectively 15% defense (read the tool tip)

 

the same with force tech accuracy. If i have 105% Force accuracy and someone hits shroud they have 100% resist so their EFFECTIVE resist is 95%.

 

thats the 5% chance to bypass shroud

Edited July 10, 2013 by Stavroz

[EatenByDistance]

If I have 105% accuracy and hit someone with 20% defense the target has effectively 15% defense (read the tool tip)

 

the same with force tech accuracy. If i have 105% Force accuracy and someone hits shroud they have 100% resist so their EFFECTIVE resist is 95%.

 

thats the 5% chance to bypass shroud

 

hoodrat, the one who flashbanged me, doesn't run accuracy enhancements on his scoundrel healer.

 

Because, y'know. He's a scoundrel healer.

[Coriantum]

Force Shroud tooltip:

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

100% resist means there is no chance a force or tech move hits you. that is the design behind Shroud and Resilience. someone above mentioned accuracy. accuracy has no influence whatsoever if you have full immunity to the move. 100% means 100%. Please fix this.

[Campaigner]

Looks like Force Shroud couldn't resist... *sunglasses* that dazzling Imperial tech.

[Nebdar]

Force Shroud tooltip:

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

100% resist means there is no chance a force or tech move hits you. that is the design behind Shroud and Resilience. someone above mentioned accuracy. accuracy has no influence whatsoever if you have full immunity to the move. 100% means 100%. Please fix this.

 

100% minus the the tech accuracy you get from companions at least +3% so without further buffing we all have 103% tech force accuracy, so there is 3% chance to bypass it. The tool tip doesn't state that you are immune(if it was intended they would give you immunity instead 100% ) but it states that you are almost immune

Edited July 10, 2013 by Nebdar

[Stavroz]

hoodrat, the one who flashbanged me, doesn't run accuracy enhancements on his scoundrel healer.

 

Because, y'know. He's a scoundrel healer.

 

Hood rat has max affection companions. So he has 102% accuracy on tech powers.

 

Force Shroud tooltip:

Removes all hostile removable effects and increases your chance to resist Force and tech attacks by 100% for 3 seconds. Does not break Stealth.

 

100% resist means there is no chance a force or tech move hits you. that is the design behind Shroud and Resilience. someone above mentioned accuracy. accuracy has no influence whatsoever if you have full immunity to the move. 100% means 100%. Please fix this.

 

The Tech/Force accuracy tool tip explains it.

 

Any % point after 100% decreases an opponents resistences (TRUST ME MOUSE OVER THE TOOL TIP IT EXPLAINS IT)

 

It works exactly the same as weopon accururacy vs defences

 

TRUST ME MOUSE OVER THE TOOL TIP.

 

I am not saying i like it, i am just saying it is working as intended.

[Pyrinoos]

100% minus the the tech accuracy you get from companions at least +3% so without further buffing we all have 103% tech force accuracy, so there is 3% chance to bypass it. The tool tip doesn't state that you are immune(if it was intended they would give you immunity instead 100% ) but it states that you are almost immune

 

Even though the tool tip says 100 % doesn't shroud actually grant 200 % resistance? Therefore, arguments over accuracy rating are irrelevant. And if as that dev stated, everything always has a 5 % chance to hit then why aren't sorcs getting hit 5 % of the time with force barrier up?

[Stavroz]

Even though the tool tip says 100 % doesn't shroud actually grant 200 % resistance? Therefore, arguments over accuracy rating are irrelevant. And if as that dev stated, everything always has a 5 % chance to hit then why aren't sorcs getting hit 5 % of the time with force barrier up?

 

Not sure about force barrier, need to look at the tool tip when the servers come back up.

 

But again when the servers come all PLEASE scroll over your force/tech accuracy rating and read the tool tip.

 

It explains it very very well.

There is no bug/exploit with getting stuned/flashed etc through Resilence/shroud.

It is an intended part of the game as evident in the tool tip.

 

I know its ******** b/c i have 102% Resistance when resilience is up due to talents in the tank tree on my shadow (2% base 100% from resilience) and i rage hard when i get stunned/pulled or knocked back while glowing yellow.

[Leafy_Bug]

To claim that accuracy factors in when being against resilience shows how little you play the class or know the class. The DEV post is fishy about that 5 % and I will tell you why. I have played a shadow since the game was released. I have done everything BioWare has released and until 1.4 Resilience was the best cooldown in the game. It was god mode, nothing went through and it worked all the time.

 

 

Now when Lost Island came out the knockback boss did not push a shadow tank away when he used resilience. I have negated this boss mechanic everytime I went there. A few patches later, I started being grappled in the fire by imps (i guess grapple works better with more accuracy, right? if you have no accuracy grapple will miss completely, ). Then i went back in LI with a pug group and I got killed on knockback while resilience was on. This was the moment resilience broke and BioWare never fixed it.

 

 

PVP has never been the same for a shadow. We get flashbanged, knocked back, even force stunned while glowing gold. It has no connection to the accuracy or the body type. It is poor programming from BioWare who have put it their code something that randomly renders the effect worthless. Half the time resilience is a broken cooldown.

[Stavroz]

To claim that accuracy factors in when being against resilience shows how little you play the class or know the class. The DEV post is fishy about that 5 % and I will tell you why. I have played a shadow since the game was released. I have done everything BioWare has released and until 1.4 Resilience was the best cooldown in the game. It was god mode, nothing went through and it worked all the time.

 

 

Now when Lost Island came out the knockback boss did not push a shadow tank away when he used resilience. I have negated this boss mechanic everytime I went there. A few patches later, I started being grappled in the fire by imps (i guess grapple works better with more accuracy, right? if you have no accuracy grapple will miss completely, ). Then i went back in LI with a pug group and I got killed on knockback while resilience was on. This was the moment resilience broke and BioWare never fixed it.

 

 

PVP has never been the same for a shadow. We get flashbanged, knocked back, even force stunned while glowing gold. It has no connection to the accuracy or the body type. It is poor programming from BioWare who have put it their code something that randomly renders the effect worthless. Half the time resilience is a broken cooldown.

 

When the servers go live either I or you will be very very embarrassed.

 

I am sticking to my guns....prepare for a bump...i am going to screen shot the damn force/accuraacy tool tip and put this stupid argument to rest.

[Zunayson]

1. Reroll scoundrel

2. Get flashbang

3. See that it is an ACTIVE ability, and in fact NOT a tech ability as it does NO damage.

4. Understand that shroud should not make you immune to all CC. If this is indeed a metagame dominated by CC, then it is imbalanced to ignore it all. That's like being invulnerable to the traps in huttball. It's gamebreaking.

[Leafy_Bug]

When the servers go live either I or you will be very very embarrassed.

 

I am sticking to my guns....prepare for a bump...i am going to screen shot the damn force/accuraacy tool tip and put this stupid argument to rest.

 

Please do and also explain why the same person using flash bang on me with resilience will stun me 2 or three times out of 10? I want to know if accuracy changes the more you flashbang someone

[Stavroz]

Here you go guys

 

 

 

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/1ch6.jpg/

 

"CHANCE THAT YOUR OFFENSIVE FORCE POWERS WILL EFFECT THE TARGET. [B]ACCURACY OVER 100% REDUCES THE TARGETS RESISTENCE"[/b]

 

 

 

/THREAD

 

Having said all this i was right in that force/accuracy takes away from resistence however i think Waka and somone else above was correct.

 

Having further researched the abilaty i think it is bugged.

 

When you pop resilence/shroud and mose over you "DEFENCE" The tooltip says 200% resist.

 

I have now tested this and here is the SS

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/jajf.jpg/

Edited July 10, 2013 by Stavroz

[Zunayson]

Here you go guys

 

 

 

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/1ch6.jpg/

 

"CHANCE THAT YOUR OFFENSIVE FORCE POWERS WILL EFFECT THE TARGET. [B]ACCURACY OVER 100% REDUCES THE TARGETS RESISTENCE"[/b]

 

 

 

/THREAD

 

Mechanics actually aren't identical to what most people think.

 

Increase resist by 100%?

 

Do I multiplicatively increase my 0% resist chance by 100% (effectively doubling it) to 0%, or additively increase my 0% resist chance by 100% to make it 100%?

 

Actually, neither. It's 200% resist chance. Which means an accuracy of 140% (obtainable by only a sniper who stacks accuracy with his CDs up) will lower 200% by 40%, which means there is still a 160% chance to resist.

[Leafy_Bug]

Here you go guys

 

 

 

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/1ch6.jpg/

 

"CHANCE THAT YOUR OFFENSIVE FORCE POWERS WILL EFFECT THE TARGET. [B]ACCURACY OVER 100% REDUCES THE TARGETS RESISTENCE"[/b]

 

 

 

/THREAD

 

 

Thanks for reading the tooltip and pasting it here without actually reading what we post. You still havent explained how the same person can stun me 2 or three times through resilience out of 10. Does their accuracy increase to over 9000 the more the flash bang? You do know that the stuns thru resilience are RANDOM. You can stun me now and in 25 mins waste the stun. Really, open your eyes a bit and drop the attitude. Theorycrafters rand the math, we opened a ticket, there is a major bug in resilience and it is not because of accuracy.

 

 

Mechanics actually aren't identical to what most people think.

 

Increase resist by 100%?

 

Do I multiplicatively increase my 0% resist chance by 100% (effectively doubling it) to 0%, or additively increase my 0% resist chance by 100% to make it 100%?

 

Actually, neither. It's 200% resist chance. Which means an accuracy of 140% (obtainable by only a sniper who stacks accuracy with his CDs up) will lower 200% by 40%, which means there is still a 160% chance to resist.

 

 

We are getting someplace.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Stavroz]

Thanks for reading the tooltip and pasting it here without actually reading what we post. You still havent explained how the same person can stun me 2 or three times through resilience out of 10. Does their accuracy increase to over 9000 the more the flash bang? You do know that the stuns thru resilience are RANDOM. You can stun me now and in 25 mins waste the stun. Really, open your eyes a bit and drop the attitude. Theorycrafters rand the math, we opened a ticket, there is a major bug in resilience and it is not because of accuracy.

 

 

 

 

 

We are getting someplace.

 

Yea i edited my post

 

200% resistence when shroud is up.

 

 

Screen shot

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/jajf.jpg/

[Zunayson]

Same thing applies to melee and ranged defense while sniper roll is up; 200% full defense, for a total of 205% melee/ranged and 200% resist.

 

I don't roll that much because I'm bad though I've never experienced dying through roll.

 

One way it's possible is the timing. Due to the animation delay, it's possible that the game checks for if a move can be used, then the animation, then the effect. Flashbang has a travel time animation (Slight but noticeable). So if you pop shroud while flashbang is on the way, it may still affect you (Which is okay - he used it first )

[Leafy_Bug]

Yea i edited my post

 

200% resistence when shroud is up.

 

 

Screen shot

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/jajf.jpg/

 

 

 

I recall in 1.2 when the shadow was grossly OP, i would duel someone and being a shadow tank they would do a bit more damage on me then I would on them. To make up for that, I would couple resilience with 3 stacks of harnessed. That was when healing was insane. They would use stuns and knockbacks to no avail. Nobody could interrupt the cast. 1.4 was the turning point where resilience got borked ....

[Leafy_Bug]

Same thing applies to melee and ranged defense while sniper roll is up; 200% full defense, for a total of 205% melee/ranged and 200% resist.

 

I don't roll that much because I'm bad though I've never experienced dying through roll.

 

One way it's possible is the timing. Due to the animation delay, it's possible that the game checks for if a move can be used, then the animation, then the effect. Flashbang has a travel time animation (Slight but noticeable). So if you pop shroud while flashbang is on the way, it may still affect you (Which is okay - he used it first )

 

 

So how do you explain then a cast ability from a Boss, which has 5 seconds, you pop resilience before this has finished casting and the boss kills you? SUNDER comes to mind.

[Zunayson]

So how do you explain then a cast ability from a Boss, which has 5 seconds, you pop resilience before this has finished casting and the boss kills you? SUNDER comes to mind.

 

Some boss moves have a one hundred percent to hit. But wait, you have a 100% to resist!

 

Well, actually you only have 200%. And the boss has like 500%...

 

For example, many mobs can CC through entrench, the alderaan mobs that shoot the rockets that knock you back come to mind. It's probably not fixed. I don't know the mechanics for entrench. It may give 200% to resist stun effects if that capability is in game. It may simply make you "immune" to stuns, whatever that is.

 

There was a dev post in the sniper forums about it; Any bosses that are CCing through entrench was unintended. I'm not sure if the same can be said for Shroud.

 

Simply put, when A counters B, you get a contradiction. Vanish while you're electronetted. Vanish says that you vanish, yet electronet says you can't. So which one wins (Obviously electro-net does, but that example is a very intended and well-known example)?

[DimeStax]

What happens when an unstoppable force collides with an immoveable object? Apparently we know the answer now. 1/10 chance you get CC'd through Force Shroud. Edited July 10, 2013 by DimeStax

[Leafy_Bug]

What happens when an unstoppable force collides with an immoveable object? Apparently we know the answer now. 1/10 chance you get CC'd through Force Shroud.

 

RIP Physics!!!

[revcrisis]

Waka, I'm looking at this video multiple times and it could just be a lag thing. You break, you pop shroud, and you force speed. Somewhere in there the flash bang goes off. On your screen the flash bang definitely comes after the force speed. But on hood's screen he could have flashed you a hair of a millisecond after break and the server only caught up to it after the animations on your screen happened.

 

I'm not saying that shroud/resilience isn't broken, but latency and animation catch-up definitely play a part in this crappy Hero engine. It seems like your character model moved forward on client side, but then the server said "wait he should be flash banged", then you got mezzed when everything caught up.

Edited July 10, 2013 by revcrisis