Suggestions for rebalancing Assault VGs/Pyro PTs

[ZeroPlus]

I've seen many posts that discuss/propose solutions for fixing Assault VGs/Pyro PTs.

 

Unfortunately, many of them would require a lot of development work and others would change the entire design of Assault VGs/Pyro PTs.

 

I would like to propose 2 changes that should, (based on my limited knowledge of the code base), be simple to implement and test to verify that they have not tipped the balance too far.

 

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Prototype Particle Accelerator / Ionic Accelerator

The tooltip for this talent states:

While Combustible Gas Cylinder/Plasma Cell is active, Flame Burst/Ion Pulse has a 45% chance and Rocket Punch/Stockstrike has a 60% chance to finish the cooldown on Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt and make the next Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt free. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds.

 

SUGGESTION

My suggestion is that the talent should be changed so that Rocket Punch/Stockstrike has a 75% chance to finish the cooldown on Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt. This would bring the VG/PT version of the talent in line with the Commando/Mercenary version (where Full Auto/Unload have a 75% chance).

 

EXPLANATION

Originally, when the game came out it, it made sense for the VG/PT version of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator to have a lower percentage chance on Rocket Punch/Stockstrike proccing a free Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt because the cooldown on Rocket Punch/Stockstrike is lower than the cooldown on Unload/Full Auto (9s vs 15s). If the percentage chance had been the same, VGs/PTs would have been able to take advantage of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator more often.

However, since then, 2 things have changed:

1. In patch 1.2 an internal cooldown of 6 seconds was added to Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator meaning that no matter what you do, neither Advanced Class version of Assault/Pyro can take advantage of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator more often once every 6 seconds.
   
2. In patch 2.0 a new talent was added to the Mercenary/Commando version of the Pyro/Assault talent tree: Power Barrels/Hyper Barrels. Amongst other things, this talent reduces the cooldown of Unload/Full Auto by 3 seconds (from 15 seconds to 12 seconds).
   

The first change above should have been enough of a justification to change the VG/PT version of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator so it was in line with the Commando/Mercenary version. Considering the second change though, there really is no justification at this time for the differences in the talent.

Right now, Assualt Commandos/Pyro Mercenaries have a smoother rotation because they have a higher chance to reliably take advantage of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator when using Full Auto/Unload (they will rarely fail to reset the cooldown on Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt) compared to Assault VGs/Pyro PTs (who can often go for 2-3 full rotations without having Rocket Punch/Stockstrike reset the cooldown on Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt).

The lower chance to reset the cooldown on Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt using Full Auto/Unload coupled with the loss of damage on the Combustible Gas Cylinder/Plasma Cell DoT (introduced in patch 2.0) has caused a greater than expected impact on the damage that an Assault VG/Pyro PT can put out.

Having the percentages be the same would allow Assault VGs/Pyro PTs to more reliably take advantage of Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator thereby increasing their damage.

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Automated Defenses / Adrenaline Fueled

The tooltip for this talent states:

Getting attacked reduces the active cooldown of your Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush by [3 seconds / 6 seconds]. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds.

 

SUGGESTION

My suggestion is that the talent should be changed so that it includes a self-healing component. The end result would be a tooltip that indicated:

Getting attacked reduces the active cooldown of your Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush by [3 seconds / 6 seconds]. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Additionally, causes your periodic damaging abilities that critically hit to restore [0.5 / 1]% of your total health.

 

EXPLANATION

At this time, Assault VGs/Pyro PTs have been rebalanced to be more of a "sustained damage" and "damage over time (DoT)" specialization.

This can be seen due to the reduction in "burst" capability and the addition of a new DoT to the specialization (the DoT component added to Assault Plastique/Thermal Detonator).

Unfortunately, when not specced into the Shield Specialist/Shield Tech tree VGs/PTs are notoriously squishy despite their heavy armor. Considering that the Assault/Pyro tree has no real defensive cooldown or passive defense, (apart from Flame Suit/Assault Frame that reduces damage taken from periodic effects), the loss of its "burst" hit the tree's survivability hard. In both PvP and solo play, due to the melee nature of the class, the Assault VG/Pyro PT takes an extreme amount of damage.

Before patch 2.0, the Assault VG/Pyro PT could counter the fact that he took a lot of damage by putting out a lot of "burst" damage. With the reduction of the "burst" capability the Assault VG/Pyro PT will often die before being able to make his "sustained damage" count.

Allowing Automated Defenses/Adrenaline Fueled to have a passive self-heal based on DoT crits, would go a long way to aiding the specility's survival.

This change makes sense because:

1. The mechanic is already in the game. No new code should be needed for the mechanic as it already exists for 2 other DoT-based melee specializations (the Watchmen Sentinels/Annihilation Marauders and Balance Shadows/Madness Assassins). The mechanic would just need to be tied to the Automated Defenses/Adrenaline Fueled talent and the Assault/Pyro DoTs.
   
2. The talent Automated Defenses/Adrenaline Fueled is so high up in the Assault/Pyro tree that it would be out of reach of the other 2 specializations, so preventing hybrid builds from taking it. It is already a 2 point talent. It is also already tied to the only other self-healing available to an Assault VG/Pyro PT.
   
3. It would encourage filling out the Assault/Pyro tree and going all the way up to Assault Plastique/Thermal Detonator.
   
4. The healing received would be about 300 health per critical DoT hit (for a player with 30000 health). It would assist with survivability without making the player immortal.
   

This change would allow Assault VGs/Pyro PTs to live long enough to be able to make his "sustained damage" count in situations where he is suffering incoming damage (like PvP and solo play).

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I feel that these (simple?) 2 changes would bring the Assault VG/Pyro PT to a better place in all aspects of the game (PvE (high end and normal), solo play and PvP (ranked and solo-queue)), without tipping the balance too far. The first would allow for a more consistant damage output, (without the current frustration of not having Rocket Punch/Stockstrike reset the cooldown on Rail Shot/High Impact Bolt on a consistant basis), raising the amount of damage output. The second would improve the survivability in situations where the player is taking damage without making the player immortal.

[Kormad]

Even though I believe that VGs/Pyros aren't horribly off, I really like the way you presented these changes and the reinforcement you gave them. I believe your suggestions are very good, and would do very well to be introduced.

 

Quality post, thanks for posting it!

[ZeroPlus]

Even though I believe that VGs/Pyros aren't horribly off, I really like the way you presented these changes and the reinforcement you gave them. I believe your suggestions are very good, and would do very well to be introduced.

 

Quality post, thanks for posting it!

 

Thank you Kormad.

 

I too believe that we aren't horribly off. We just need a little tweak...

[ezrafetch]

I'd disagree with the PPA/IA change simply because A. I never have issues with it proccing on time and B. Stockstrike/RP is on a 9s CD while Unload/FA is on a 15s CD.

 

I agree with the Adrenaline Fueled/Automated Defenses change though. It makes sense to have such a talent in the tree, and will remedy somewhat losing Energy Rebounder/Reflexive Shield to Tactics/AP.

 

I still think that TD/AP needs to be rescaled to provide more upfront burst rather than a weak intitial attack and a long, drawn-out DoT. I think a nice change would be to have it provide the old burst with a quick, 6s DoT at the end, or even just give it the old burst and have it refresh/proc Plasma Cell/CGC. It's not like any PvErs have ever taken TD/AP so it won't really affect balance there, but it will fix PvP burst issues (it will help VGs/PTs keep up with the silly Deception/Infiltration and Combat/Carnage burst that is present at the moment). Additionally, I think the armor penetration on Focused Impact/Puncture needs to be restored to 60%. As it is, the ability that serves a central role in Pyro/Assault and is still an important role in Tactics/AP hits for less than it should.

 

Rapid Venting/Rapid Recharge is also underwhelming (Alacrity bonus is eh), so I'd change it. I'll chime in again when I think of a better bonus than that. Something involving Shoulder Cannon would be nice, in my opinion. Pyro currently has no use for it outside of a minor DPS gain (i.e. nothing else cool attached).

 

PT/VG DPS is actually competitive (i.e. parsing the 2.9k-3k all other classes are hitting) in the 2/22/22 spec so it's fine (see here), but it would be helpful to make full Pyro more appealing than it currently is, so that it's even somewhat appealing because it isn't anymore.

Edited July 5, 2013 by ezrafetch

[Luckeyduckey]

Yeah, I agree. proccing Rail/HiB is never an issue on my PT or VG. What I'd rather, is see Railshot's damage increased, or give it talents to increase it's crit chance. I feel that the spec has good damage up until the 6th tier of the tree, where I -never- bother to continue up it. Automated Defenses is useless, TD is weak, Power Bracer is "meh", and I like Rapid Venting. Degauss isn't needed, since we have Overrides now.

 

What this means, is the tree needs more worth in the higher talents. Make Thermal Detnator's DoT tick over 6 seconds, not 12, and increase it's initial hit damage by 50% of what it is now. This would be a good start, because right now, I'd rather just use Flame Burst, then waste the GCD on TD. Good ideas, but I'd rather a change to TD than PPA procs.

 

The other thing I can think of is to change Degauss into a more offensive ability, such as taking damage reduces the active cooldown of rocket punch OR TD by 1 second. This would give the abilities more worth, and allow TD to work better with the suggested change, OR allow Rocket Punch to proc PPA more often. My 2 cents. I find that Pyro is still okay, not as good as AP, or Hybrid, but it's okay. The spec could use a bit more defence, but I like it.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Luckeyduckey

[Melon_Lord]

Yeah 2/22/22 is parsing well, but being a hybrid should we not assume Bioware is going to change it once again so it will no longer be viable? Yeah it might take 8 months but that's not the point.

 

We got a taste of what Concealment Ops went through in 1.2 and the sad thing is they are still sub-par. All because they were too strong in PVP so they became usless in PVE. Bioware needs to stop trying to balance the entire game with PVP because PVE suffers, and vice versa. If a spec is poor DPS give them really good utility and survival, if they do really good DPS give them little to no utility/survival. Mara and Snipers with their good utility and survial coupled with really good DPS is just absurd and unbalanced.

[ZeroPlus]

I'd disagree with the PPA/IA change simply because A. I never have issues with it proccing on time and B. Stockstrike/RP is on a 9s CD while Unload/FA is on a 15s CD.

Then you have been a lot luckier than me. It happens to me in every single fight: I will go 2-3 full rotations without a single proc. On my Mercenary and Commando, it will maybe not proc off Unload/Full Auto once in a fight. This not only impacts damage potential but also heat/ammo management (which further impacts damage potential). I have none of those issues on my Mercenary and Commando. The only difference? The percentage to proc is lower for VGs/PTs.

Also, as noted:

1. for Assault Commandos/Pyro Mercenaries the cooldown on Unload/Full Auto is 12 seconds.
   
2. the fact that PPA/IA has an internal cooldown of 6 seconds makes the difference in percentage to proc redundant. It made sense when there was no internal cooldown on PPA/IA but not anymore.
   

 

I agree with the Adrenaline Fueled/Automated Defenses change though. It makes sense to have such a talent in the tree, and will remedy somewhat losing Energy Rebounder/Reflexive Shield to Tactics/AP.

Thank you.

 

I still think that TD/AP needs to be rescaled to provide more upfront burst rather than a weak intitial attack and a long, drawn-out DoT. I think a nice change would be to have it provide the old burst with a quick, 6s DoT at the end, or even just give it the old burst and have it refresh/proc Plasma Cell/CGC..

TD/AP has always been balanced around Explosive Dart/Sticky Grenade with TD/AP providing you with slightly more single target damage than ED/SG: you traded the AoE damage of ED/SG for the larger bang of TD/AP.

The upfront damage between the 2 abilities has not changed: TD/AP still hits for slightly more than ED/SG.

The big difference now is that TD/AP also applies a 12 second DoT to the target. This DoT does more damage per tick than any other DoT a Pyro/Assault has access to.

I really doubt that they will change TD/AP in anyway.

 

It's not like any PvErs have ever taken TD/AP so it won't really affect balance there, but it will fix PvP burst issues (it will help VGs/PTs keep up with the silly Deception/Infiltration and Combat/Carnage burst that is present at the moment).

Even before the addition of the DoT component many PvEers did take TD/AP. Now there is no question about taking TD/AP if you go up the tree: the DoT component makes it worth it.

For PvP TD/AP was a given. The damage difference now between TD/AP and ED/SG, (as mentioned above), is what it always was.

I doubt that any change will be done to TD/AP.

 

Additionally, I think the armor penetration on Focused Impact/Puncture needs to be restored to 60%. As it is, the ability that serves a central role in Pyro/Assault and is still an important role in Tactics/AP hits for less than it should.

I would love to see this happen! This change hurt VGs/PTs a lot!

Another solution would be to add RS/HiB to the list of abilities that Power Bracer/Riot Augs increases the damage for by 6% (RS/HiB is included in the equivalent Mercenary/Command talent Power Barrels/Hyper Barrels and has its damage increased by 6%; on the other hand, they only get 30% armor penetration).

But, this is the kind of change that won't happen.

 

Rapid Venting/Rapid Recharge is also underwhelming (Alacrity bonus is eh), so I'd change it. I'll chime in again when I think of a better bonus than that.

In fact, Alacrity is very lack luster for a class with basically instant attacks. I take Rapid Venting/Rapid Recharge for the cooldown reduction it offers and not the Alactrity it has. The talent is exactly the same for both BH/PT Advanced Classes but only one of them really benefits from it.

A possible change would be for Rapid Venting/Rapid Recharge to increase melee and ranged defense by [1%/2%] for VGs/PTs (in addtition to what Infrared Sensors/Nightvision Scope already does) for a total of 4% defense fully talented.

Unfortunately, any change to Rapid Venting/Rapid Recharge would require additional coding. I doubt we will see any change to the talent.

 

Something involving Shoulder Cannon would be nice, in my opinion. Pyro currently has no use for it outside of a minor DPS gain (i.e. nothing else cool attached).

Agreed!

But again, this is one of those changes that would require additional coding. We aren't likely to see anything added to Shoulder Cannon for VGs/PTs in the near future.

 

PT/VG DPS is actually competitive (i.e. parsing the 2.9k-3k all other classes are hitting) in the 2/22/22 spec so it's fine (see here),

This is part of the problem. To be competitive VGs/PTs have to use a hybrid spec. This is just not right. So saying "it's fine" is wrong.

 

but it would be helpful to make full Pyro more appealing than it currently is, so that it's even somewhat appealing because it isn't anymore.

Yes. Yes it would.

 

Thank you for the discussion points Ezrafetch.

[ZeroPlus]

Yeah, I agree. proccing Rail/HiB is never an issue on my PT or VG.

I must be the unluckiest player around then. I cannot depend on Rocket Punch/Stockstrike to dependably proc RS/HiB. I do not have the same issue on my Commando/Mercenary with Full Auto/Unload.

 

What I'd rather, is see Railshot's damage increased, or give it talents to increase it's crit chance.

Agreed. But I doubt that we will ever see that happen.

 

I feel that the spec has good damage up until the 6th tier of the tree, where I -never- bother to continue up it. Automated Defenses is useless, TD is weak, Power Bracer is "meh", and I like Rapid Venting. Degauss isn't needed, since we have Overrides now.

 

What this means, is the tree needs more worth in the higher talents. Make Thermal Detnator's DoT tick over 6 seconds, not 12, and increase it's initial hit damage by 50% of what it is now. This would be a good start, because right now, I'd rather just use Flame Burst, then waste the GCD on TD. Good ideas, but I'd rather a change to TD than PPA procs.

A 50% increase to TD's/AP's initial damage would be too much. Especially coupled with the reduction of the DoT duration. Think about it...

TD/AP has always been lack luster as a top of the tree talent. It is better than it was before for PvE and is basically the same as it was before for PvP.

I would like to see something happen to it. I would. But I seriously doubt that any change will be done to it.

 

The other thing I can think of is to change Degauss into a more offensive ability, such as taking damage reduces the active cooldown of rocket punch OR TD by 1 second. This would give the abilities more worth, and allow TD to work better with the suggested change, OR allow Rocket Punch to proc PPA more often.

I like Degauss. It is a great complement to Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line.

I like how in your first paragraph you dismiss the need for Rocket Punch to proc PPA more often and then in the last one you suggest it.

 

My 2 cents. I find that Pyro is still okay, not as good as AP, or Hybrid, but it's okay. The spec could use a bit more defence, but I like it.

So do I. Pyro/Assault needs a tweak... not a major overhaul... in my opinion.

[ScytheEleven]

I like how structured your arguments are. Kudos!

 

I strongly agree about the additional healing mechanism for Kolto Overload/Adrenaline Rush. I think that would really help out in PVP.

 

For PVE, something HAS to be done about TD/AP. I mean, there has to be some great reason to take a full tree over a hybrid. Even before 2.0, PVE'rs didn't touch TD/AP.

 

I personally think that the kinetic damage for TD/AP should be raised around 25% (give PVP some kind of burst back), and that the DoT should be left as-is.

 

Incendiary Missile/Incendiary Round, as long as it is left up on the target, should provide an additional 15% armor penetration to rail shot. This would match rail shot armor penetration to pre-2.0 levels. Plus it would make Incendiary Missile/Round not feel so goofy and out of place in the tree.

Edited July 5, 2013 by ScytheEleven

[ceelaniri]

I really like the change to automated defense, that d make it very appealing and useful. That would buff our survivability a lot since we got energy rebounder taken away.

 

On the other hand, PPA is fine right now.

 

I d also like them to change the armor pen of RS and then see how well the class fare. At this point, TD might be better thanks to automated defense.

[ezrafetch]

Even before the addition of the DoT component many PvEers did take TD/AP. Now there is no question about taking TD/AP if you go up the tree: the DoT component makes it worth it.

For PvP TD/AP was a given. The damage difference now between TD/AP and ED/SG, (as mentioned above), is what it always was.

I doubt that any change will be done to TD/AP.

 

Prior to 2.0, the highest parsing Pyro/Assault spec was 7/6/28. Taking TD/AP was strictly a DPS loss in a PvE setting, but people still took it just in case they wanted extra burst, though it wasn't needed. It was a waste of a GCD, effectively, when you were better served doing other things to maximize sustained DPS.

 

This is part of the problem. To be competitive VGs/PTs have to use a hybrid spec. This is just not right. So saying "it's fine" is wrong.

 

It's only wrong in the sense that Bioware designs along a bizarre paradigm that tries to force people to have to go to the top of one tree and then fill around elsewhere when it comes to specs. I don't really see the problem in hybridizing when it comes to DPS trees. Sages/Sorcs, Gunslingers/Snipers all pull off hybrids in PvE and PvP settings (see: DF/Sab || Leth/Engi hybrids for the most well-known example), and so I don't see why it's "wrong" for Vanguards and Powertechs to do so either.

 

Hybridizing between Tank/Heal and DPS roles comes with obvious penalties (as it rightfully should), but I don't see why hybridizing between different DPS trees should be considered reprehensible in any way, shape or form. It's what gives Vanguards and Powertechs the best parses at the moment. Whichever spec gets the highest DPS will be the one played. If it was full Pyro/Assault, it would be played. If it was Tactics/AP, then everyone would play Tactics/AP. But right now it's a 2/22/22 hybrid since neither tree provides helpful top-tier talents. Ideally you would have full Tactics/AP, full Assault/Pyro, and 2/22/22 hybrids all running around with about-equivalent DPS, but it is what it is at the moment. To not maximize DPS based on the constraints Bioware has currently placed onto PT/VG players (in the form of the skill trees) is silly if maximizing your DPS is your objective. Hybrid or no.

 

Does what I'm saying mean Pyro is "fine"? No. But Vanguards and Powertechs can and do parse well, and so to say that VG/PTs are "omgbork" in the DPS department is a misleading statement, and there's no real reason to claim that hybrids are plain wrong since they have existed since launch for many, many classes. Vanguards and Powertechs are fine in how well they parse in comparison to other classes. Are there a lot of PT/VG specs that can parse that well? Basically it's a "no," and on this I wholly agree that needs to be fixed.

Edited July 6, 2013 by ezrafetch

[Brunner_Venda]

1. Love the automated defense idea. This has to happen, because the skill is useless as is.

 

Instead of the 75% proc chance (rarely an issue for me) try this:

 

2. /FIX the heat cost on incendiary missile. 24 is too high!

 

3. /FIX armor pen on rail shot. I hit rails for 6.5K, while snipers quick shot for 8K and smashers auto crit AOE smash for 10K. AP and Pyro are DPS specs. Please give us that dignity back.

 

4. /FIX kolto overload to work at 40% health. The skill should be able to boost us out of "execute ability" range or a one hit smash. Otherwise, why use it? You'll die in one hit regardless of hitting this button.

 

I'll actually give in on TD and leave it if we get the automated defense buff. Think about it. 12 DOT ticks gives more kolto healing proc chances than 6 ticks.

 

PS: people who say TD is useless don't quite understand the point of it. It's an effective DOT when combined with IM and CGC. That's three dots ticking every second on top of your burst. It melts faces with IM and CGC.

[ceelaniri]

PS: people who say TD is useless don't quite understand the point of it. It's an effective DOT when combined with IM and CGC. That's three dots ticking every second on top of your burst. It melts faces with IM and CGC.

 

TD might be effective if we had the possibility to stay alive long enough. Right now, it is difficult to use without having a healer behind.

 

At the moment, I just get more out of the 8/8/30 spec and probably most of the hybrid spec.

Edited July 6, 2013 by ceelaniri

[Brunner_Venda]

/bump for more ideas.

 

How do we fix AP? The spec just isn't competitive with even pyro when it comes to damage output - let alone snipers or maras.

 

Played a match on the same team as a friend of mine who played AP.

 

I pulled 100K more damage, 5-6 more kills, and my top damage was 6.2K versus his 4.7K. Of course that doesn't count the cumulative damage of PTF, but 9K over three seconds isn't all that great.

 

I also died a couple more times than he did, but that's to be expected when you have no defense. Even spending 20 more seconds or so in the med center didn't help his numbers, and our node was under pressure all match long.

 

Personally I think AP needs more armor pen or damage on rail shot, and some ability that will lower the CD on immolate. Like if you use PFT, it refreshes immolate. Something. Anything. The spec has some quality of life issues, which is sad because I like it more than pyro.

[Olzi]

I have made my Powertech my new main since I moved my sorcerer to another server. I'll be running Nightmare S&V when it comes out and thought I'd post some of my impressions of how it goes here. I'll be playing AP for the most part or pyro if it seems more appropriate for some fights.

 

Since I only made this character my main when transfers came around my gear isn't yet fully optimized, nor do I have massive amounts of experience with AP (played pyro a lot pre 2.0). The other dps in the group will probably be a Marauder switching between Carnage and Annihilation, an Arsenal Merc and a Marksman Sniper. I will fraps all our attempts and post any kill videos on Youtube. I am very bad at posting on the forums so don't expect walls of text after the first session but I will post something

[ZeroPlus]

Nice discussion going on here.

 

I would just like to get back to the Prototype Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator proc chance for Rocket Punch/Stockstrike which is currently 60% (as opposed to the 75% proc chance that Mercenaries/Commandos get on Unload/Full Auto).

 

(This is a long read. Hopefully you are sitting down .)

 

This proc chance for Vanguards/Powertechs was put in place when the following conditions were true:

1. PPA/IA did not have an internal cooldown of 6 seconds.
   
2. PPA/IA was not tied to Combustable Gas Cylnder/Plasma Cell. This allowed players to spec into Hydraulic/Static Shield in the Shield tree (shielding an attack resets the cooldown on RP/SS) and PPA/IA in the Pyro/Assault tree.
   

 

At that time, the 60% proc chance on RP/SS for PPA/IA made sense for VGs/PTs because at that time, it was quite possible to have a major streak of back to back PPA/IA procs.

 

However, at this time none of the above is true anymore. There is currently no way to have a PPA/IA proc any sooner than every 6 seconds. Having a proc chance of 60% is hurting VGs/PTs in comparison to the alternate Advanced Class of the Trooper/Bounty Hunter.

 

Consider the following:

1. PPA/IA in conjunction with Superheated Rail/High Friction Bolts is the Pyro/Assault tree's heat/ammo management talent. (In effect, when you proc a free RS/HIB using RS/HIB will restore 8 heat/ammo.)
   
2. Rocket Punch/Stockstrike having a 60% chance to proc PPA/IA actually translates into a 40% chance NOT TO proc PPA/IA (as opposed to Unload/Full Auto having only a 25% chance to NOT proc PPA/IA).
   
3. Mercenaries/Commandos can use Unload/Full Auto 6 times in 1 minute starting at the 0 seconds mark (remember: for Assultt/Pyro, they can reduce the cooldown of Unload/Full Auto to 12 seconds). Each time they use Unload/Full Auto they have a 75% chance to proc PPA/IA (or a 25% chance not to proc it). This means that, from a purely mathematically point of view, they will proc PPA/IA 4,5 times in a minute. In reality, it means that they will only fail to proc PPA/IA very rarely: about 1 time during a minute of using Unload/Full Auto.
   
4. VGs/PTs can use RP/SS 7 times in 1 minute starting at the 0 seconds mark (with 6 seconds left over: the 8th RP/SS happens at the 63 second mark). Each time they use RP/SS they have a 60% chance to proc PPA/IA (or a 40% chance NOT TO proc it). From a purely mathematically point of view, this means they will proc PPA/IA 4,2 times in a minute. In reality, it means that VGs/PTs will actually fail to proc PPA/IA about 3 (or 4) times during a 1 minute period of using RP/SS.
   

 

Because of the above points, a Mercenary/Commando will consistantly proc PPA/IA everytime they use Unload/Full Auto which leads to a consistent rotation because they can better control their heat/ammo. A VG/PT on the other hand cannot consistantly proc PPA/IA everytime they use RP/SS which leads to deficient heat/ammo control which leads to less DPS because it is harder to remain in the "high regen range".

 

This situation only gets worse the longer a fight goes on. Let us take a look at a 4 minute window during a long fight.

 

For a Mercenary/Commando, after the first minute the number of times they can use Unload/Full Auto actually drops to 5 (during the second minute, the first use happens 12 seconds into the minute and the fifth happens at the 60 second mark of the minute, and this continues in the subsequent minutes of the fight). Considering they have a 75% chance to proc PPA/IA, they will rarely not proc PPA/IA (again, they will maybe fail to proc it once every 1 minute). So over a four minute period, a Mercenary/Commando will fail to proc PPA/IA using Unload/Full Auto, in a worst case scenario, about 4 to 5 times. Considering they can use Unload/Full Auto 21 times during a 4 minute fight, they will have procced PPA/IA about 16 to 17 times (they will have regenrated about 128 to 136 heat/ammo, or even more).

 

For a VG/PT the picture is a lot worse. For one thing, only during the last minute of the fight will the number of RP/SS that can be used drop from 7 to 6 (due to the 9 second cooldown on RP/SS, only at that 180 second mark (3 minutes) does a RP/SS coincide with the "end of a minute"). Considering that a VG/PT will fail to proc PPA/IA about 3 times during a minute, that means that over the course of a 4 minute fight they will fail to proc PPA/IA, in a best case scenario, about 12 times out of a total of 27 uses. In other words, they will have only procced a PPA/IA, in a best case scenario, about 15 times (meaning that they have only regenerated 120 heat/ammo). Considering that they have a 40% chance NOT TO proc PPA/IA each and every time they RP/SS, they might actually have even less heat/ammo regenaration.

 

Now note, that the above is a fictitious representation of what actually happens in a fight. Other abilities are being used during a normal rotation. The fact that Mercenaries/Commandos have mainly cast and channeled abilities means that their heat/ammo regenaration is already better than a VG/PT because they regenerate ammo while using their abilities. A VG/PT due to only having instant attacks, is basically constantly generating heat/consuming ammo every 1,5 seconds. A VG/PT is forced to constantly use Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots to stay in the "high regen range".

 

This discrepancy in the proc chance for RP/SS in PPA/IA is a huge disadvantage for VG/PT players.

 

As mentioned above, there is currently no real reason for this discrepancy in proc chance. It made sense in the past when there was no internal cooldown on PPA/IA proccing. At this time, it is only hurting VG/PT players.

 

Hopefully the above has helped to explain why I feel that the proc change on RP/SS should be changed to 75% to be more in line with what Mercenaries/Commandos get in PPA/IA.

 

Let me know what you think.

[Brunner_Venda]

I'd disagree with the PPA/IA change simply because A. I never have issues with it proccing on time and B. Stockstrike/RP is on a 9s CD while Unload/FA is on a 15s CD.

 

Sorry, I've got to agree with this guy on the PPA/IA change. It would be nice to have, but we have much bigger issues to deal with.

 

Automated Defenses needs the buff you just posted.

The lack of burst with rail shot hurts, return the armor pen.

Incendiary missile heat cost is 24!! ***?

TD lost too much up front damage and the DOT is too long.

 

I would also like to hear any ideas you have to fix AP.

It is not competitive with pyro, let alone any other top DPS classes.

[ZeroPlus]

I'd disagree with the PPA/IA change simply because A. I never have issues with it proccing on time and B. Stockstrike/RP is on a 9s CD while Unload/FA is on a 15s CD.

 

Sorry, I've got to agree with this guy on the PPA/IA change. It would be nice to have, but we have much bigger issues to deal with.

You see, that is the thing.

It looks like a minor change that wouldn't do anything to help us. But when you realize the impact it has on our heat/ammo regen, you realize that it is impacting our ability to do Damage. At this time, this minor change could actually have a big impact on our DPS.

It is also something that is easy to patch in so that testing can be done.

 

Automated Defenses needs the buff you just posted.

Thanks! Hopefully Bioware feels the same way.

 

The lack of burst with rail shot hurts, return the armor pen.

This is one that I agree on but don't think we will ever see happen. They cut our burst. I doubt that they will ever give it back.

 

Incendiary missile heat cost is 24!! ***?

See, this ties into the change I have outlined for PPA/IA.

As a VG/PT we are almost never in a good place to use IM (except at the very beginning of a fight) because we are always playing "catch up" with our heat/ammo.

On my Mercenary and Commando I never have to worry about using IM when the DoT is running out. I always have enough ammo/heat to do so.

This just isn't the case with my VG. I often have to delay the use of IM and let it drop off because using it on time will hurt my DPS more because my ammo/heat will become out of control.

Will they drop the heat/ammo cost of IM? I doubt it.

But if they change PPA/IA as I outlined it might become a non-issue.

 

TD lost too much up front damage and the DOT is too long.

I've commented on this before.

I'm not convinced that they cut the up front damage too much (and I know I am probably in the minority here ). If they had, Explosive Dart and Sticky Grenade's would have been changed as well. It wasn't. In a full Pyro build, TD still does more up front damage than ED/SG.

As for the DoT, I think it is good as it is (and again, I am in the minority here ). The cooldown on TD and the length of the DoT lines up almost perfectly with IM and serves as a great indicator for when IM needs to be reapplied. This is great in PvE.

In PvP, the cooldown on TD (which is probably tied to the DoT duration) can be a hinderance to burst.

 

I would also like to hear any ideas you have to fix AP.

It is not competitive with pyro, let alone any other top DPS classes.

I am really not the best person for that.

I tried AP a long time ago and found it clumsy. I just couldn't get into the flow of AP.

There have been some suggestions in this thread and others on what can be done to help AP. I really have nothing that I can say about AP. As I said, it is just not "my thing".

Sorry.

 

Thanks for the talking points.

[Luckyluzi]

AP

1- let rocket punch and railshot krits procc 2 or 3 extra ticks of rec blade, (like a mini cull)

2- give us some tech krit bonus, maybe 3% at 3 stacks of flamethrower and 6% for 6 seconds after using flamethrower with 3 stacks

3- decrease cd of immolate or railshot by 3 seconds

 

pyro

1-give us back the 90% armor pen on railshot and increase the upfront damage of thermal detonator a bit

2-increase damage reduction by 15% while adrenaline rush is active

 

shield

1- new defensiv coodown "shield overlaod" 1min cd, increase shield chance by 20% or 25% for 10 seconds, after the duration your shieldchance dropps to 0% for 5 seconds

 

sry for bad english