Karast Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others? A typical dps meter is a poor reflection on how some is actually doing as side from the amount of damage or healing done. It does not reflect if they are controlling their threat output, or if they avoiding damage by moving properly to avoid aoe and boss mechanics. It does not typically reflect if they are increasing the overall group damage by means of buffs and debuffs. The only thing a damage meter or heal meter shows is the raw amount of healing / dps done. Which is why from a group perspective it is a tool that does more harm than good. Because if you form a group or raid just stacking people with high metrics your not going to get anywhere. Meters however are a great tool to track personal improvement, and to test out spec optimization. How much dps before I pull threat? How does build A compare to build B, so on and so forth. The reason why I think a lot of people are against meters is because from a group perspective they are really useless, and we can't stand the number epeener's who cause continual wipes as they try to get top dps, pull threat, and then blame the tanks and healers for their own idiocy. At the end of the day who was the top dps'er doesn't mean anything as long as the boss is dead and you had fun killing it. And so you know I typically take top dps, I just don't care at all about it if the boss don't die. Also you do not need meters to figure out high dps specs vs low dps specs right now. You see you have these monsters and they have HP pools, in fact they have exact amounts of HP shown on their health bars. 30k, 40k ect. All you have to do is kill one and see how long it takes in 1 spec compared to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripebear Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 A typical dps meter is a poor reflection on how some is actually doing as side from the amount of damage or healing done. It does not reflect if they are controlling their threat output, or if they avoiding damage by moving properly to avoid aoe and boss mechanics. It does not typically reflect if they are increasing the overall group damage by means of buffs and debuffs. The only thing a damage meter or heal meter shows is the raw amount of healing / dps done. Which is why from a group perspective it is a tool that does more harm than good. Because if you form a group or raid just stacking people with high metrics your not going to get anywhere. Meters however are a great tool to track personal improvement, and to test out spec optimization. How much dps before I pull threat? How does build A compare to build B, so on and so forth. The reason why I think a lot of people are against meters is because from a group perspective they are really useless, and we can't stand the number epeener's who cause continual wipes as they try to get top dps, pull threat, and then blame the tanks and healers for their own idiocy. At the end of the day who was the top dps'er doesn't mean anything as long as the boss is dead and you had fun killing it. And so you know I typically take top dps, I just don't care at all about it if the boss don't die. Also you do not need meters to figure out high dps specs vs low dps specs right now. You see you have these monsters and they have HP pools, in fact they have exact amounts of HP shown on their health bars. 30k, 40k ect. All you have to do is kill one and see how long it takes in 1 spec compared to another. What is this... I don't even.... Nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooding Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hopefully, the combat log will only show your data, so you can only see your own dps. Personal parsers are beneficial tools. Group meters, do more harm than good. Guilds that are min-max would just require you to state your logs anyway - and it wouldn't be hard to figure out who's lying. There will always be elitists, meters are not. I'd prefer to KNOW my DPS rather than be led blindly on what rotation is best. Meters plox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abnn Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 All done MAKE ADDONS and they don't need to do anyting, Gg. really just make addons in the game and all stop whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrrr Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I can't even realise my stat priotisation without dps meters. Not just rotation which is pretty straightforward, but stats, tooltips are just misleading and i can't figure out is it accuracy over power or crit ot smth else, and where it caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The game is better without dps meters. Players are already taking down raid bosses and world bosses without them. Now UI addons are good to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraytkeeper Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The game is better without dps meters. Players are already taking down raid bosses and world bosses without them. Now UI addons are good to have. I agree with you on UI addons. I think they are more important at this point than combat logs. my thoughts on stat meters: Good: They allow you to see if/how to improve your performance Bad: People started to rely on dmg meter readouts waaay too much. The amount of damage or healing a player does can vary quite a bit from fight to fight and depending on numerous variables, combat meters may or may not accurately define how well a player is doing. I'm not saying combat meters don't show you when players are performing poorly, but as I'm sure many of you noticed from wow, people started to really misuse the data from them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xzulld Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You can keep your damage meters and combat logs. Excellent, Ill do just that! Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BossJawa Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others? what a nob If you need DPS meters and combat logs in modern mmo's you suck badly. MMo's have been on easy mode for more years than I care to remember. Would be nice to have a challenging mmo one day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripebear Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 what a nob If you need DPS meters and combat logs in modern mmo's you suck badly. MMo's have been on easy mode for more years than I care to remember. Would be nice to have a challenging mmo one day Fact is, without a meter you're never going to be doing as much damage as with one. So yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erlexxx Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 what a nob If you need DPS meters and combat logs in modern mmo's you suck badly. MMo's have been on easy mode for more years than I care to remember. Would be nice to have a challenging mmo one day I could make a game thats challenging because you have no idea what to do to win, or how to do it, or where to go to do it. Doesn't mean its challenging in a good way. Plenty of things in a mmo can be challenging with a dps/threat meter and a combat log. If you say anything different than you have never defeated a pre nerf ending raid boss in wow such as heroic Lich King 25 or Ragnaros heroic 25. Those fights before being nerfed to open them up to more people, were extremely challenging even with the addition of ALOT more addons than just dps meters and a combat log. Some of the best raiders in the world took literally over 500 tries to kill heroic Ragnaros. And thats the BEST raiders taking 500 tries. Also just for info, I did kill those, and pretty much every other boss i the past few years top 5-20 US TL;DR Combat logs and damage meters are a good thing and you are ignorant if you think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shimaku Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many of the people in this thread have actually played or seen endgame content at this point in time. The fact of the matter is that, damage meters or no damage meters, you aren't going to be able to 'play how you want to play' in Hard Mode flashpoints due to the fact that most of the bosses have hard enrage timers - if you don't do enough damage to the boss in enough time, you don't clear the instance, and that's that. Not having hard numbers available is only going to waste people's time on overanalyzing and finger-pointing rather than being able to see where the problem lies and figuring out a solution. Ultimately, it's more constructive to have them. Edited January 11, 2012 by Shimaku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatrose Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, didn't one of the developers shed some light on this issue by saying that they ARE implementing features to allow you to keep track of YOUR performance? To me it sounds as if they're adding personal dps meters to the game, meters that keep track of what you are doing but leaves you in the dark as to what others are doing. This is all fine and dandy in my opinion, in order to be able to try out different specs and spell priorities and actually come to any conclusions this is a must-have if you ask me. Now I am quite content with the idea of having them be personal but I do think that they should implement a certain feature. Let us appoint a raid leader through the UI and have that players meters become "all-knowing". A raid leader really needs the data to analyze what's going on and why his raid was unable to clear a hurdle. This way he'll be able to and those who don't want to put an all-knowing tool in the hands of random, rude PuG flamers can at least rest assured that immature and rude people seldom make raid leaders. Well, I say bring it on. Some form of meter has to be implemented as it's almost essential and it seems that it's in fact on its way... once again, in some form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erlexxx Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Well, didn't one of the developers shed some light on this issue by saying that they ARE implementing features to allow you to keep track of YOUR performance? To me it sounds as if they're adding personal dps meters to the game, meters that keep track of what you are doing but leaves you in the dark as to what others are doing. This is all fine and dandy in my opinion, in order to be able to try out different specs and spell priorities and actually come to any conclusions this is a must-have if you ask me. Now I am quite content with the idea of having them be personal but I do think that they should implement a certain feature. Let us appoint a raid leader through the UI and have that players meters become "all-knowing". A raid leader really needs the data to analyze what's going on and why his raid was unable to clear a hurdle. This way he'll be able to and those who don't want to put an all-knowing tool in the hands of random, rude PuG flamers can at least rest assured that immature and rude people seldom make raid leaders. Well, I say bring it on. Some form of meter has to be implemented as it's almost essential and it seems that it's in fact on its way... once again, in some form. That sounds great in theory, but would never work in execution. You are then giving 1 person the authority to call anyone he wants bad no matter if they are or not. I mean, how would anyone else know if the person hes blaming everything on is the lowest dps, or if really all his friends are lower but its ok because he knows them so he blames the guy he doenst know. The only real solution is a dmg meter. Its really as simple as this: If you have bosses with enrage timers and limited numbers of people attacking them, then you need a dmg meter. Thats just all there is to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thradar Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) No thanks. Keep them local (only I can see them to analyze) and not global (so some 12 yo can rage that I need to do 0.000008923457092374908 more DPS to be considered uber). Edited January 11, 2012 by Thradar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kottonmouth Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yea I'll be sure not to use those and to stay away from the guilds that require you to have them. Thanks but no thanks. yup, feed the elitist WoW crowd with this stuff i guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberData Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Fact is, without a meter you're never going to be doing as much damage as with one. So yeah. This. I'm sorry, but how do you even KNOW what spec is better than what? How do you KNOW what rotation is better, mathematically? Or what debuff is better? For burst? For over time? In a flashpoint/ops situation...it's a diagnostic tool. Are heals the issue? Is a dps taking more damage than a tank? Is tank dropping too fast the problem? Is low dps the culprit? How can you know for sure without logs and a parsing tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANOFOWNAGE Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 people just dont want damage meters so they can still raid in ops even if they are complete **** at this game. I dont understand how people can be so against damage meters? Like if you are attempting a boss for hours on end and cant meet the dps check. How the hell are you going to figure out which player is holding you back with out a meter? I just dont understand people. World of logs is out there for a reason so one can maximize the efficiency of the raid. Why would people want to settle for a second rate raid instead of a top tier raid? thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kesitah Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 The only thing a damage meter or heal meter shows is the raw amount of healing / dps done. Not true. A good damage meter also shows - who interrupted how often - who used which skills for dps - who did how much damage on which target ("who switched on adds when needed") - who stepped into bad stuff and how much damage they got from this ("Fails") - who woke up crowd controls - who died by what, and how much heal he was getting in the "critical seconds" (many damagemeters have a possibility of a special filter on the combat log to only see stuff relevant to the death of a character) and when tank cooldowns were started/running out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterKayote Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Hopefully, the combat log will only show your data, so you can only see your own dps. Personal parsers are beneficial tools. Group meters, do more harm than good. Joy another thread. Well since its new ill just put in my vote once more. Above is basically my view on it and something that has been constantly dismissed by those for it. Probably the very same ******** that get a kick out of destroying the community. Players have been already clearing raids without its use or dependency on any form of meter what so ever ... and the community is better for it. It is PROVEN to not be needed. You know your on to something when the best that can be said for it are ad hom arguments ("youre just a bad, that doesnt want to be seen, herp derp") trying to further dismiss the adverse effects this has on the games community. Hopefully they stick to their guns, on the more recent quote by Georg and only make it a personal log so players can only look at their own DPS to better their own toon if they need to. Public logs are only even remotely useful (not needed) for enrage bosses ... and I certainly do not think its worth knocking the community down another level for a tiny convenience thats only applicable to a tiny percentage of bosses in the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njkh Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) You guys hating at dps meters, wake up! Are u against grades in school too? Against education? U think everybody should play with the best guys even thought they bring nothing to the team, or work as whatever they want cause its fun? Everyone isnt meant to do everything cuz its fun. Today its impossible to see whos dealing dmg and whos not. And almost all raid bosses and some HM bosses have enrage timers too. So should we just stick with whoever we find since we cant possible know who sucks and who dont. DPS meter ARE needed, not to kick and flame other people, but to find out if someone is good enough to even do his work in a raid/dungeon. Edited January 13, 2012 by njkh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 yup, feed the elitist WoW crowd with this stuff i guess. You can always spot the people whose first MMO was WOW when they say stuff like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innocentone Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) I say keep the fire going. Enough hate on dps meters and they most likely won't add it. I hate the meters and swtor isn't wow so swtor doesn't need them! Keep the elitist on wow and away from swtor! Edited January 14, 2012 by Innocentone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morcova Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I say keep the fire going. Enough hate on dps meters and they most likely won't add it. I hate the meters and swtor isn't wow so swtor doesn't need them! Keep the elitist on wow and away from swtor! That's true, SWTOR isn't wow. SWTOR feel older than wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manifoldgodhead Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Joy another thread. Well since its new ill just put in my vote once more. Above is basically my view on it and something that has been constantly dismissed by those for it. Probably the very same ******** that get a kick out of destroying the community. Players have been already clearing raids without its use or dependency on any form of meter what so ever ... and the community is better for it. It is PROVEN to not be needed. You know your on to something when the best that can be said for it are ad hom arguments ("youre just a bad, that doesnt want to be seen, herp derp") trying to further dismiss the adverse effects this has on the games community. Hopefully they stick to their guns, on the more recent quote by Georg and only make it a personal log so players can only look at their own DPS to better their own toon if they need to. Public logs are only even remotely useful (not needed) for enrage bosses ... and I certainly do not think its worth knocking the community down another level for a tiny convenience thats only applicable to a tiny percentage of bosses in the entire game. Your absolutely right, we don't need damage meters as long as the raid content stays faceroll easy. After I play a bit more of Kotor 3, I'll leave you to your kiddie pool mmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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