Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[Zarovich]

You just pick the one you hate the most and send them off, then realize they were your top damage and your raid is about to fall apart forever.

 

Seriously they may gripe because of how idiot pugs used this information in WoW and it hurt your epeen, but these tools are extremely useful for the people who have to make decisions that effect the 15 other people in a raid. Period.

 

I don't believe SWTOR is going to be having 15+ size raids so it's not an apples to apples comparison. What damage meters do though is determine which class and specs are elite and anything else is not wanted for raids. So basically by adding damage meters to the game Bioware will either be constantly dealing with balance issues based on raids or they will allow the "play an elite class/spec if you want to raid" mentality.

[OSUNightfall]

I don't believe SWTOR is going to be having 15+ size raids so it's not an apples to apples comparison. What damage meters do though is determine which class and specs are elite and anything else is not wanted for raids. So basically by adding damage meters to the game Bioware will either be constantly dealing with balance issues based on raids or they will allow the "play an elite class/spec if you want to raid" mentality.

 

I have never actually seen this happen in a game, and I've been raiding a long time. If you can do the job, you're in. If not, you're out. If your *class* literally can't do the job it was designed for, blame the devs. No raid leader I've ever worked with would turn down a class from a raid for not being the best possible option in that spot, so long as they could *do the job.*

Edited December 29, 2011 by OSUNightfall

[Zarovich]

I have never actually seen this happen in a game, and I've been raiding a long time. If you can do the job, you're in. If not, you're out. If your *class* can't do the job it was designed for, blame the devs. No raid leader I've ever worked with would turn down a class from a raid for not being the best possible option in that spot, so long as they could *do the job.*

 

Well I guess you haven't played many MMOs then. Well look at it this way with the people who want DPS meters in order to run optimal. Lets say there are two DPS builds that are parsing 5-10% higher then any other build regardless of the player then optimal raids will not allow in anything less. Which means those class/builds is all that will be allowed in because letting in anything less won't be optimal for the group.

[OSUNightfall]

Well I guess you haven't played many MMOs then. Well look at it this way with the people who want DPS meters in order to run optimal. Lets say there are two DPS builds that are parsing 5-10% higher then any other build regardless of the player then optimal raids will not allow in anything less. Which means those class/builds is all that will be allowed in because letting in anything less won't be optimal for the group.

 

Again, I think this is apocryphal. Optimal raid builds are pointless, what matters is if you can clear the content or not. Any raid leader structuring a raid this way is doing it wrong.

[OdonKnight]

Again, I think this is apocryphal. Optimal raid builds are pointless, what matters is if you can clear the content or not. Any raid leader structuring a raid this way is doing it wrong.

 

Delete raid-builds and insert DPS meter. Is not that the argument you are opposing?

 

I dislike add-ons of any shape or form. If entirely in-game - much more open to it. BUT - yes I think people lie about using it for personal altruistic reasons. Yes people lie for many reason and yes I think they are not entirely honest.

 

DPS meters lead to class/build optimizations. Both lead to a higher bar for Devs to design fights against as groups take optimal builds/dps/etc. Devs make fights harder, process becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

DPS meters also mess up on simple things like who does and doesn't do other needed things - activate/deactivate X, crowd control Y, slow Z, disrupt A, etc, etc, etc. Like it or not many/most will see people ranked 1, 2,and 3 and assume first was best, second was second best, and third was last - regardless of the situation.

 

But, if they have it in-game, fine. If we start the add-on craze by needing external software to optimize our performance you now have WoW where they take for granted raiders/standard dungeoneers having certain capabilities. This leads to the 99% of content for 1% of player base. Not the best strategy for a new game.

[TheSwamper]

If people want to use them for self-improvement, fine. But the moment you say to me or any of my teammates "You're not doing enough DPS", YOU are the one who will be kicked from my groups.

[OSUNightfall]

Delete raid-builds and insert DPS meter. Is not that the argument you are opposing?

 

I dislike add-ons of any shape or form. If entirely in-game - much more open to it. BUT - yes I think people lie about using it for personal altruistic reasons. Yes people lie for many reason and yes I think they are not entirely honest.

 

DPS meters lead to class/build optimizations. Both lead to a higher bar for Devs to design fights against as groups take optimal builds/dps/etc. Devs make fights harder, process becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

 

DPS meters also mess up on simple things like who does and doesn't do other needed things - activate/deactivate X, crowd control Y, slow Z, disrupt A, etc, etc, etc. Like it or not many/most will see people ranked 1, 2,and 3 and assume first was best, second was second best, and third was last - regardless of the situation.

 

But, if they have it in-game, fine. If we start the add-on craze by needing external software to optimize our performance you now have WoW where they take for granted raiders/standard dungeoneers having certain capabilities. This leads to the 99% of content for 1% of player base. Not the best strategy for a new game.

 

Well sir, at least we agree that WoW took it way too far. When you design a raid assuming that I'm using Deadly Boss Mods, Decursive, and so forth, you've lost control of your game.

[BegaTasty]

christ bloody wow players, infecting every game with their angst an hate, now we are gonna have the same crap here lol..

 

"waaa your gears not good nuff noob"....Please god turn on FFA so I can hunt these idiots.

[OSUNightfall]

If people want to use them for self-improvement, fine. But the moment you say to me or any of my teammates "You're not doing enough DPS", YOU are the one who will be kicked from my groups.

 

This is fine right up until the point that one of your group members is keeping the group from being able to progress through content. Then you either find the problem and fix it, or give up on doing gear-current raids forever. As the group leader, it's your prerogative if you'd rather just stop raiding altogether.

[TheSwamper]

This is fine right up until the point that one of your group members is keeping the group from being able to progress through content. Then you either find the problem and fix it, or give up on doing gear-current raids forever. As the group leader, it's your prerogative if you'd rather just stop raiding altogether.

 

If someone is considerably slacking behind the rest, it'll be obvious without dps meters. If someone is slightly behind the rest and it's keeping us from progressing, then game design is flawed.

 

The hardest content in the game should be doable by average-skilled players in above average gear. If not, then the game is effectively consigning more than 50% of it's base to never see all the content which, imo, is just stupid.

 

It really comes down to prioritizing what's most fun to each person. I'd rather be friendly and accepting than judgemental. If someone is the correct level, a suitable class for current party makeup, and polite, I'm much more inclined to invite them over some uber-skilled rude a@@.

[DaxRendar]

Said it before, I'll say it again:

 

No issue with Combat Logs.

 

Damage Meters?

 

If that plague upon MMOs must be present then I only want to see them in:

1) Training Dummies

2) Hard Mode Operations

3) Nightmare Mode Operations

 

They aren't needed anywhere else.

 

Anyone who disagrees needs to take their hands off their e-peens

[Emencie]

If people want to use them for self-improvement, fine. But the moment you say to me or any of my teammates "You're not doing enough DPS", YOU are the one who will be kicked from my groups.

 

 

Really?

 

Do you allow healers that don’t heal in your groups?

 

What about tanks that don’t gain aggro on mobs or have enough mitigation to survive a few attacks?

 

Why would you be ok with DPS that doesn’t deal enough DPS?

 

I’m sorry but if anyone in the group is not doing their job / helping the group. Why would you want to keep them around? If your DPSers are dealing half the DPS they should and could that would double the amount of damage the tank takes and the amount the healer needs to heal. Why is that anymore acceptable than a healer that doesn’t heal?

[BegaTasty]

Really?

 

Do you allow healers that don’t heal in your groups?

 

What about tanks that don’t gain aggro on mobs or have enough mitigation to survive a few attacks?

 

Why would you be ok with DPS that doesn’t deal enough DPS?

 

I’m sorry but if anyone in the group is not doing their job / helping the group. Why would you want to keep them around? If your DPSers are dealing half the DPS they should and could that would double the amount of damage the tank takes and the amount the healer needs to heal. Why is that anymore acceptable than a healer that doesn’t heal?

 

you do get the idea that this is a GAME???.... there is no work involved here, an n one of it is real or has any bearing on life in any way... treating it like a job is just plain stupid.

[Wraeththu]

I've always assumed they took the combat log out so people didn't realize how unbalanced the classes were at release?

 

As other people have pointed out, the classes were undergoing some major changes the last few weeks of beta. They're not really well balanced between equivalent roles. If they were in right now, the complaining would be epic. I assume when they feel the classes are a bit more consistent then the logs will go back in.

[Emencie]

you do get the idea that this is a GAME???.... there is no work involved here, an n one of it is real or has any bearing on life in any way... treating it like a job is just plain stupid.

 

I never said anything about treating it like I job. I said that if a person isn't doing "their job / helping the group." The word job is used in the context that when you ask someone to heal for you in a flashpoint you expect them to heal. If they are not healing then you would find another healer that will heal... Right?

Real world jobs have nothing to do with anything I said.

[OSUNightfall]

I never said anything about treating it like I job. I said that if a person isn't doing "their job / helping the group." The word job is used in the context that when you ask someone to heal for you in a flashpoint you expect them to heal. If they are not healing then you would find another healer that will heal... Right?

Real world jobs have nothing to do with anything I said.

 

Yeah, this is the kind of thing you get when talking about this. I'm satisfied that I've had my say, and happy that combat logs are going in (and are essentially 0% different from meters anyway.) People who don't like them will move from game to game forever, never understanding how devs can't see that meters are evil, always blaming people who like them for swaying designers into including them. The devs understand why such things are good and that's all that really matters. Talking about dps meters or dungeon finder functionality may as well be talking about religion.

[BegaTasty]

Yeah, this is the kind of thing you get when talking about this. I'm satisfied that I've had my say, and happy that combat logs are going in (and are essentially 0% different from meters anyway.) People who don't like them will move from game to game forever, never understanding how devs can't see that meters are evil, always blaming people who like them for swaying designers into including them. The devs understand why such things are good and that's all that really matters. Talking about dps meters or dungeon finder functionality may as well be talking about religion.

 

that is because people see these silly things as some sort of bible, an they instantly turn into hate spewing teenagers that rage against anyone they deem as unworthy of being in their presence lol it's quite sad actually to watch. These idiot mods turn young lads into slavering nutbags that rant at anyone an everyone silly enough to listen.

 

By the way your statement "this si what you get", makign yourselves seem to be victims is laughable mate. It is the ones who rave an demand to sue these things that destroy the game playerbase, an tors is already on knife edge of angst an tantrums.

 

Before wow taught you all that therse things are vital to enjoying a game, we managed to survive without them an do our jobs to perfection, because guess whta...

 

WE WATCHED what we were doing lol. As a full time healer myself, I never once needed a silly program to tell me how to heal, because I know my job an I am good at it.

 

Vanguard never needed it

FFXI never needed it

AC1 never needed it

AOC never need it

Daoc never needed it

 

I could go on. The fact is you lads rely on a crutch to play the game for you.

[thoddiver]

WE WATCHED what we were doing lol. As a full time healer myself, I never once needed a silly program to tell me how to heal, because I know my job an I am good at it.

 

Vanguard never needed it

FFXI never needed it

AC1 never needed it

AOC never need it

Daoc never needed it

 

I could go on. The fact is you lads rely on a crutch to play the game for you.

 

Cute....

 

You know half the games you listed no one plays, the other half were so broken no one played past their trial accounts.

 

Look I'm glad you know your job. I'm glad your so awesome that you don't require a little bit of help. I'll admit it, I'm not. I like the help, I like the training wheels. I like the warm fuzzy I get when I look at the meter and say "oh thank god, we've been throwing ourselves at this boss for 2 hours and keep failing. I know I'm pulling my part... what can I do to improve it?"

 

So yeah... cute... very cute...

[Morcova]

Why do you need everything dumbed down so you can understand it in a quantitative form rather than collaboratively working with your raid group to determine the problem and/or a workaround?

 

Remember people: the more information you have apparently dumbs down the game.

[Morcova]

Incorrect. You want to be an elitist "I know how to play the game better than you do" *****. You are doing a good job so far.

Hahah, no I only care about knowing my class as well as I can. I expect others to do the same. Get over your victim complex.

 

If the encounter is beaten, it is beaten. Here's a hint. This is a game. You didn't do any "work" at all.

Sure, don't put any effort (work) into your game. That's fine. When my group is making our way thru our third dungeon and you are still wiping on the second boss think about this post.

[Morcova]

SO you like easy mode, go play WoW.

 

Erm, this game can't get any easier man. Is this game currently hard for you?

[CharagonIGN]

I've always assumed they took the combat log out so people didn't realize how unbalanced the classes were at release?

 

Which is kind of silly, really. Nobody expects classes to be balanced on Day 1. People do expect basic UI features.

[Morcova]

That's ... elitism. Polite elitism perhaps, but elitism all the same.

This is hilarious.

 

Remember folks: Removing someone from your group because you don't feel like carrying him is elitism.

[Morcova]

you do get the idea that this is a GAME???.... there is no work involved here, an n one of it is real or has any bearing on life in any way... treating it like a job is just plain stupid.

 

How about treating it like a use of my time?

 

I don't know about you but I don't like my time wasted how about you?

[Swirly]

Can't wait for all the FoTMs to start rolling in and Bioware trying to "bring everyone in order" so no one is all hurt that their spec isn't as good and certain specs get rejected. Edited December 29, 2011 by Swirly