Combat Logs are coming! Damage meters & analysis soon to follow!

[emmjay]

If you are part of the group that thinks "HEY WHY DONT YOU JUST L2P WITHOUT THEM LOL?"

 

You've never done progression raiding. Ever. You were never in a top 50 US/EU/World guild without addons. There isn't anyone who after vanilla wow (And even beofre it) who was doing progression based raiding (NOT JUST DOING THE ENCOUNTER, DOING IT WHEN ITS HARD AND NEW) without KTM, DBM, Decurisive, CT Raid assist. I was one of the first 500 people in the US to kill C'thun, and I guarantee it would have been nearly impossible without a several addons.

 

I know someones going to come in here, say they played with/for vodka or blood legion and has never used a single add on.

 

You're lying. 100%

 

Perhaps TOR doesn't need the millions of ridiculous addons that WoW has, but it needs more customization in the UI and without a doubt a combat log with a parser. Anyone who disagrees plays this game at a child's level, and will never do serious content. (when it's still progression based)

 

They closed my thread

[Syluar]

I'm sorry but why did we sidetracked from combat log to addons discussion? Stop screaming addons will ruin the game cause noone said they are going to be introduced in the first place. I too think that game that requires you to use addons is broken and fights are getting rediculous because of them. But addons is no concern here. We are (or rather were) talking here about INGAME combat log.

 

I think you take issue with the fact that cookie cutter builds and BIS list should be a problem for devs?

 

In WOW there was a easy way to get to the "top" of your max dmg,healing whatever output.

For every patch and "balance" that Blizzard did, there was a wealth of data analyzing that gave a clear indication of what spec and what gear should be aimed for in order to max your potential. Those that took the time, outside the game, to study these results (read a post with the needed build and rotations) and then took the time in game to get the BIS items had a clear advantage. And since this was often those that was raiding the raid designers had to take this into consideration when they tuned the bosses.

 

The players that never ventured outside of the game but just "played it" via tooltips and common sense was left behind. I would say that the difference between players almost certainly was exaggerated this way.

 

I hope that explains my opinion a little better.

 

Every game developes metagame. EVERY one! If you don't want to be competetive you don't need to follow it. And the metagame (that is best builds/rotation/bis gear) is always going to be "discovered" regardles of the combat log presence. And the fight will be disigned around them and the patches will adress balance issues because of them. It's not like when you look at your combat log you know straight away everything about the game but sites with that kind of things will exist with or without combat log. Take some time to search for swtor guides right now. We don't have demage meters yet but the sites presenting best build rotation and bis gear are already out there!

That is just the way this kind of game works and no combat log has anything to do about it. So all those negative coments about demage meters destroying (or "hurting in long term) the game are utter BS. Now try to deny all the positives combat log brings listed in all the previous posts.

[JonathanTheBlack]

That's pathetic and sad. They need to not include combat logs. Ban them forever. There's absolutely no reason to allow any kind of dps parsing. All it does is stir up crap and cause problems.

[Lethality]

But without the ability to use addons the developers would´t have to worry about tuning the encounters to boss mods, meaning that the encounters still have to be hard when the timing is down on paper.

 

And sure, i think every game that involves any kind of Coop has voice communication in mind. But wouldn´t you agree that without DBM the encounters in WOW would be a magnitude harder, even if you used stopwatches? :-)

 

Add-ons aren't necessary at all. Obviously, the guilds that beat the encounters without using them prove that. How do you think add-ons are made? People beat the encounter without them. That's how.

 

Look at it this way: Blizzard, BioWare - no developer can create the perfect UI for everyone. Customization is important. So Blizzard has allowed the hive mind of the most dedicated, brightest players to develop tools for the players who cannot commit that kind of dedication to beat the same content.

 

It's a win-win. Hardcore players get the chase without any help, and every tier down from there has their chance to finish the content at some point.

 

It's an intended and brilliant design. Without it, the encounters would have to be made so basic and uninteresting that would cause a different problem all together.

[Lethality]

That's pathetic and sad. They need to not include combat logs. Ban them forever. There's absolutely no reason to allow any kind of dps parsing. All it does is stir up crap and cause problems.

 

In a rules-based combat system where statistical probability is the #1 factor in victory, it doesn't make sense to keep that information away from players who want to get better.

[pezit]

Well too bad, I would've loved to never see it in the game. I hope bioware realizes that the complaining on forums are actually just the vocal minority, wouldn't be surprised if lots of people are happy about not having to bother with a bunch of mods and addons.

[Morcova]

Because I'm playing a game, I'm not going to work.

 

So we should also remove all damage from the game right? Those numbers that pop up when you are killing a mob must hurt.

[krakken]

Then the nerf bats will hit mainly because pvp is so unblanced. Do you think the devs are not looking at the boards posted at the end of each pvp match? Sith Inquisitor and smugglers are always in the top 5 in groups. Now that you can see how unbalanced they are the nerf bats will come out swinging.

[Morcova]

Then the nerf bats will hit mainly because pvp is so unblanced. Do you think the devs are not looking at the boards posted at the end of each pvp match? Sith Inquisitor and smugglers are always in the top 5 in groups. Now that you can see how unbalanced they are the nerf bats will come out swinging.

 

The nerf bats were swinging all thru the beta. This wont change that.

[HexCaliber]

In the hands of idiots and immature children, they do.

 

In the hands of an adult with a brain, being able to compare your ability usage, damage output/intake, and crit rates are very beneficial to improving your own play.

 

In an intelligent adult they are not needed, it should be obvious to anyone of even moderate intelligence how best to play their char. Provided you can read skill descriptions and apply a rudimentary understand of maths there should be no problem. Most of the people I have met focusing on parses are more focused on the performance of others and finger pointing to prop up a flagging or weak ego, than worrying what they may be doing right or wrong.

 

Personally, I would rather have fun, and by all accounts, I seem to be doing very well without ever using a dps parse, if previous guilds mates are anything to go by. We were raiding and clearing said raids long before some mmo gamers jumped on the parse bandwagon with wow's add-ons.

 

Ultimately, as long as the raid is cleared and everyone had fun that is all that matters, everything else is irrelevant; this is a game not work. However, if weaker intellectually challenged players need a meter to tell them how well they play so be it, I will continue to manage just fine without one.

Edited December 25, 2011 by HexCaliber

[RankinBass]

Ultimately, as long as the raid is cleared and everyone had fun that is all that matters, everything else is irrelevant; this is a game not work. However, if weaker intellectually challenged players need a meter to tell them how well they play so be it, I will continue to manage just fine without one.

 

Yes. This is a game, not a movie. That means some level of effort is required to play it. And some people like getting the most out of their efforts.

 

This whole "it's a game, not work" argument needs to die a horrible death.

 

You're also making the same mistake as everyone else in assuming that a damage meter only measures damage.

 

And it seems to me the people who want damage meters are the ones willing to put more effort into the game, and thus less likely to be intellectually challenged.

[kjeldsen]

You don't NEED them. That's asinine because then they wouldn't be add-ons they would be the UI. They make organizing and analyzing information 1000x easier. It's impossible right now for me to know how much DPS throughput I have. I don't have any reasonable way to monitor my healing efficiency. I don't have any real information about aggro save for mob interactions. I'd also like larger raid frames, more information about who/what is targeting what, and a better cast bar. I'd like customizable debuff/buff icons as well.

 

You remind me of the wall street traders that refuse to use tablets to trade, and stick with paper and pencil. So backwards and ignorant it's shocking.

 

Lets start with the insult, how do i compare to stock brokers when i have played with raid addons since my second visit to MC in 2005? If anything i am preaching against something i have used and supported for the last 6 freaking years. The guild rules required everyone to use named addons.

 

So you can spare the petty insults, i know everything there is to know about addons, good and bad. And i think i am perfectly informed to be able to actually have a valid opinion on the subject. Does every MMO actually support addons in the same way?

 

Did the boss die? your raid had enough DPS. Did the raid survive? your healing was ok. Did someone pull agro? he managed his threat just fine.

 

Do you want to find your best DPS/Healing output, well there are other ways , combat logs arent needed.

 

You wont find any arguments against improving the UI, but addons is not the same thing as making the UI more easy to use and more informative.

[Skeelol]

Lets start with the insult, how do i compare to stock brokers when i have played with raid addons since my second visit to MC in 2005? If anything i am preaching against something i have used and supported for the last 6 freaking years. The guild rules required everyone to use named addons.

 

So you can spare the petty insults, i know everything there is to know about addons, good and bad. And i think i am perfectly informed to be able to actually have a valid opinion on the subject. Does every MMO actually support addons in the same way?

 

Did the boss die? your raid had enough DPS. Did the raid survive? your healing was ok. Did someone pull agro? he managed his threat just fine.

 

Do you want to find your best DPS/Healing output, well there are other ways , combat logs arent needed.

 

You wont find any arguments against improving the UI, but addons is not the same thing as making the UI more easy to use and more informative.

 

No "even-remotely-decent-guild" can manage to beat any hardmode content with that mentality.

 

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You can keep at it though, maybe you can convince a few naive people.

[kjeldsen]

No "even-remotely-decent-guild" can manage to beat any hardmode content with that mentality.

 

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You can keep at it though, maybe you can convince a few naive people.

 

See this is what is so fun about the "interweb", even if i was a Bioware developer or i was from death and taxes you would just say "you have no idea" because you don´t agree.

 

You seem very narrow minded on this subject.

 

Of course it´s possible to have HC content without addons.

[Skeelol]

See this is what is so fun about the "interweb", even if i was a Bioware developer or i was from death and taxes you would just say "you have no idea" because you don´t agree.

 

You seem very narrow minded on this subject.

 

Of course it´s possible to have HC content without addons.

 

Without addons? Obviously. Without combat logs? Nope.

 

If you continue saying "ya ya ya" this just proves my point even further. No top raiding guild ever does anything without combat logs. Fact.

 

It's not about disagreeing with you "just cuz". It's because anyone in a top guild can tell you the same thing.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Skeelol

[Chazcon]

Damage, Health, and Threat Meters that are used during combat are for people who need a crutch in order to play their characters, i.e. they are lacking in skill.

 

Now, a combat log and a damage parser can be a useful tool for a DPS character trying to maximize their combat effectiveness for study after combat. Parsing analysis like this can assist you in setting up skills and skill rotations.

 

If you need a threat meter to show you which mobs have what level of threat, you are not a tank.

 

If you need an add-on to help you select and heal party members, especially in a game with 4-person fellowships, you are not a healer.

 

And note that I am a modder, I 'get' the usefulness and enjoyment that third part utilities provide, but I still want to know that live or die, I tanked that mother myself (or failed) without an app holding my hand.

 

My 2 unsolicited credits.

[owenthorn]

Without addons? Obviously. Without combat logs? Nope.

 

If you continue saying "ya ya ya" this just proves my point even further. No top raiding guild ever does anything without combat logs. Fact.

 

It's not about disagreeing with you "just cuz". It's because anyone in a top guild can tell you the same thing.

 

 

So you have pooled EVERY top raiding guild?????, its not a fact, its you pulling statistics out your behind to sound better, some games didnt have them, guilds still did things, guilds did things before these mods were ever out or existed, so no, not a fact

Edited December 25, 2011 by owenthorn

[Skeelol]

Damage, Health, and Threat Meters that are used during combat are for people who need a crutch in order to play their characters, i.e. they are lacking in skill.

 

Now, a combat log and a damage parser can be a useful tool for a DPS character trying to maximize their combat effectiveness for study after combat. Parsing analysis like this can assist you in setting up skills and skill rotations.

 

If you need a threat meter to show you which mobs have what level of threat, you are not a tank.

 

If you need an add-on to help you select and heal party members, especially in a game with 4-person fellowships, you are not a healer.

 

And note that I am a modder, I 'get' the usefulness and enjoyment that third part utilities provide, but I still want to know that live or die, I tanked that mother myself (or failed) without an app holding my hand.

 

My 2 unsolicited credits.

 

For study after combat? Why not study during combat? Because you say so?

 

Oh that's right, have fun not using any useful addons and being awesome after they come and you'll be doing less dps than a tank.

 

As long as you're not aware of it, you're better than everyone else! Logic.

 

So you have pooled EVERY top raiding guild?????, its not a fact, its you pulling statistics out your behind to sound better, some games didnt have them, guilds still did things, guils did things beofe these mods were ever out, so no, not a fact

 

It's a fact because it's just how it is. I'm not pulling any statistics from anywhere. Without being able to analyze raid dps on the fly or analyzing what happened to who and why right then after the wipe happened via a skada/recount type of addon no top guild can manage to learn from every wipe.

 

You wouldn't know that, and i can understand it for obvious reasons.

 

PS: what's a pool got anything to do with this? Are you secretly trying to tell me you like pools? Swimming pools or pool as in billiard?

Edited December 25, 2011 by Skeelol

[kjeldsen]

Without addons? Obviously. Without combat logs? Nope.

 

If you continue saying "ya ya ya" this just proves my point even further. No top raiding guild ever does anything without combat logs. Fact.

 

It's not about disagreeing with you "just cuz". It's because anyone in a top guild can tell you the same thing.

 

So a game without combatlogs never gets beaten?

[Skeelol]

So a game without combatlogs never gets beaten?

 

It gets beaten if it's a joke.

[kjeldsen]

It gets beaten if it's a joke.

 

Of course not, it just requires a different skill set than reading combat logs and downloading premade spreadsheets. Like look at what the boss did before the tank died.. Maybe that giant fireball he fired at the tank was a hint?

 

You are begining to sound like the reason i want addons out of SWTOR, you actually did play the game through addons instead of watching the bosses and environment.

 

If bioware designs the encounters the proper way the guilds will learn the encounters by looking and reading what the boss does annd says. And the top guild will still be there first since they would put the most effort into the gearing and the most time in the encounters.

[Schnerf]

The ONLY metric that matters is: Did the group succeed?

 

No, the ONLY metrics that matter is: Why didn't the group succeed faster?

[Baaddare]

If you aren't bad you don't have to worry about damage meters.

 

see this is the issue with them the attitude of some of the pro dps meter types that if you do not want them it is because you are bad. There are many good players who do not want them just for this reason.

[Skeelol]

Of course not, it just requires a different skill set than reading combat logs and downloading premade spreadsheets. Like look at what the boss did before the tank died.. Maybe that giant fireball he fired at the tank was a hint?

 

You are begining to sound like the reason i want addons out of SWTOR, you actually did play the game through addons instead of watching the bosses and environment.

 

If bioware designs the encounters the proper way the guilds will learn the encounters by looking and reading what the boss does annd says. And the top guild will still be there first since they would put the most effort into the gearing and the most time in the encounters.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Example :

 

Anub'arak heroic -> last phase starts everyone in the raid is dying

 

Each healer is assigned to 2 of the 6 (think it was 6..old fight so dont remember correctly) marks who get a damage debuff. If you fail to react as a healer and not shield/heal your 2 targets and even hesitate for a second they die instantly (everyone is at lowest hp possible because of fight mechanics).

 

If that 1 person dies it starts a chain reaction, especially if it was one of the healers that had other 2 targets.

 

You can't tell that by looking at your screen, you can tell that after the wipe by checking your combat log and seeing which target died and who was supposed to heal it. The marks are also dynamic and change every time so you can't say X was assigned to MR. Y. It's X was assigned to triangle.

 

And this is after hundreds of wipes of figuring out mechanics of the fight (since you're at the top not copying what other guilds do).

 

Easy example proving my point.

 

Like i said before, please stop talking about things you don't know, like you actually know. You don't.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Skeelol

[Baaddare]

Every MMO I've played or tested has had a combat log. This is needed to help you figure out what's going on. I was actually surprised not to see combat text when I started beta.

 

As for DPS meters, I really don't care if they make one. But it definitely wouldn't hurt.

 

they had it in beta they did remove it after a bit because there was an issue with it.