kjeldsen Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Nothing wrong with casuals in a game mate =] you're just not the kind of player that will be competitive or someone I would hardcore raid with and that is fine! So you are saying that "competitive" and "hardcore" can´t raid without addons? That doesn´t make sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I really wish they would work on a colorblind mode before working on something as useless as a damage meter.. I don't understand why you even play this game if you don't care how well you're doing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 You are missing the point. Encounters will end up being designed with addons in mind, so in a sense, everyone will need them and it wont be a choice... Again, you're never going to do those encounters when they're difficult and progression based if you have an attitude like that. Anyone who tells a RL "I don't use addons" would find themselves untagged rather quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) So you are saying that "competitive" and "hardcore" can´t raid without addons? That doesn´t make sense at all. It actually makes perfect sense...I'm not saying they "cant" I'm saying they wouldn't want to if their available. No one who min/maxes is going to leave out an advantage. If there was a piece of gear that I needed for a single encounter and I had to drop one profession and level another to max, for just ONE ENCOUNTER I would( leather-working, wardrums as a mage LOL). That's because I raid seriously. If they never add in mods, I will still raid. If they do, and you choose not to use them, you won't raid with any decent guild. Edited December 25, 2011 by emmjay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankinBass Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I think there is a difference between hurt and ruin, i guess you don´t agree. I backed up my opinion with plenty of posts, you just say "no" as a point. Tell me how it would make it a better game. Within the context of your post, there is no difference between hurt and ruin. Although I'd be enlightened to hear you try to explain the difference. And I didn't just say "no" as a point. I backed up my position in previous posts as well. But at least I never had the audacity to claim that my opinions were facts. But to explain here again, it would make the game better by providing more feedback to the players. And "damage meter" means more than just measuring damage. These addons will generally also track damage taken, healing done, CCs broken, interrupts, dispels, and various other things. These various tools allow a raid leader to see how the entire raid is holding up, which is virtually impossible with the current system. Let's say the tank dies during a boss fight. How do you currently tell what killed him? What if the boss hits an enrage timer? How do you know how to improve your DPS to beat it? And for the complaints against damage meters: Some people will abuse the tool. So what? They'll find some way to be obnoxious, that's how they amuse themselves. The lack of a damage meter will be only a minor setback. BioWare will have to spend time balancing the classes. How is that a bad thing? BioWare will have to spend more time balancing raids. They'll end up having to anyway. Blizzard created MC and Onyxia without having damage meters or any other addons in mind, and those raids led to the creation of addons to deal with the encounters which led to raids being designed with those addons in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackyce Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Oh look another thread about this. It'll go the same way. I'll just leave the same question here as the other. Why are you afraid of metric evaluation tools? Because I'm playing a game, I'm not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankinBass Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Because I'm playing a game, I'm not going to work. And you're putting at least some effort into playing a game unless you want to just watch a movie. Some people enjoy getting more out of the effort they put into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Nothing wrong with casuals in a game mate =] you're just not the kind of player that will be competitive or someone I would hardcore raid with and that is fine! Precisely. You don't need to use them if you don't want to, just don't cry to biowear when you don't get into my groups.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) So you are saying that "competitive" and "hardcore" can´t raid without addons? That doesn´t make sense at all. No, it does make sense. It's understandable that MMOs should cater to competitive "e-sport" types, every game should have some aspect for that, usually extremely difficult endgame encounters that require pin-point precision and min-maxing. That's fine. And maybe it's even those who sustain a game like WoW's fame through time (considering the fact that most people who have played WoW, statistically, have never gotten beyond lvl 35 I think - someone bear me out on this stat? I read it somewhere lol). It's when the (very sensible and sporting) requirements for high performance and teamwork in those kinds of things become a sort of e-peen badge that bleeds through and infects the general atmosphere of the game that it gets bad. The game just turns into a metagame of devs chasing min-maxers - the latter find the FOTM build, the devs have to mess about with balance to try and smooth that bump out, the min-maxers find another FOTM build, the devs chase that, etc., etc., until eventually there is no balance at all any more and the game's a mess of hybrid tank mages who can do pretty much everything. This is a game, sure, but it's also an immersive experience, and BioWare have always been famous (along with Bethesda) for focussing more on immersion and story. Sure, they've got to cater to achievers so they feel they get their money's worth out of the game, that's understandable, but please let's not have SWTOR turn into another e-peen grindfest. Let it keep its character as mainly an immersive experience. I still agree with the guy's suggestion above - have meters for operations and for test dummies, leave them out of the rest of the game. Full stop. Edited December 25, 2011 by gurugeorge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeldsen Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Again, you're never going to do those encounters when they're difficult and progression based if you have an attitude like that. Anyone who tells a RL "I don't use addons" would find themselves untagged rather quickly. In my guild i kicked people that didn´t use addons, in trial runs poor performers (on meters and "fire") was asked to leave as well. I have personally used harsh words when players didn´t bring the addon needed for a certain boss. My point is, i want a game where all that ******** isn´t needed to play. Simply by making it impossible to use addons that goal will be met.. In wow , as i said, enounters were DESIGNED with addons in mind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Because I'm playing a game, I'm not going to work. Wrong answer. This is a game, not a toy. Toys are for playing with, games should challenge you to get better. You can't get better without knowing where you are, and how you're going to get to where you need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 In my guild i kicked people that didn´t use addons, in trial runs poor performers (on meters and "fire") was asked to leave as well. I have personally used harsh words when players didn´t bring the addon needed for a certain boss. My point is, i want a game where all that ******** isn´t needed to play. Simply by making it impossible to use addons that goal will be met.. In wow , as i said, enounters were DESIGNED with addons in mind.. I still don't see why you think this game should cater to casuals and alienate the group of players who are actually going to see all of the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 You probably won't be able to play with people who require it anyway if you feel like that,so don't worry about it... won't be able to, or don't want to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 won't be able to, or don't want to? Will not be able to. No end game guild that's serious about progression is going to let a proverbial child into their raid. It won't happen. If you're the odd man out they're essentially 15 manning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeldsen Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Within the context of your post, there is no difference between hurt and ruin. Although I'd be enlightened to hear you try to explain the difference. And I didn't just say "no" as a point. I backed up my position in previous posts as well. But at least I never had the audacity to claim that my opinions were facts. But to explain here again, it would make the game better by providing more feedback to the players. And "damage meter" means more than just measuring damage. These addons will generally also track damage taken, healing done, CCs broken, interrupts, dispels, and various other things. These various tools allow a raid leader to see how the entire raid is holding up, which is virtually impossible with the current system. Let's say the tank dies during a boss fight. How do you currently tell what killed him? What if the boss hits an enrage timer? How do you know how to improve your DPS to beat it? And for the complaints against damage meters: Some people will abuse the tool. So what? They'll find some way to be obnoxious, that's how they amuse themselves. The lack of a damage meter will be only a minor setback. BioWare will have to spend time balancing the classes. How is that a bad thing? BioWare will have to spend more time balancing raids. They'll end up having to anyway. Blizzard created MC and Onyxia without having damage meters or any other addons in mind, and those raids led to the creation of addons to deal with the encounters which led to raids being designed with those addons in mind. I think there is some good points in regards to raidleaders and i think much of what you mention could be handled with combat text without providing detailed information about the encounters in terms of dps,healing etc. And if Blizzard hadn´t allowed addons they would be balancing the raid around the actual game instead of addon mechanics.. decursive anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeldsen Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I still don't see why you think this game should cater to casuals and alienate the group of players who are actually going to see all of the content. If i need addons to see the content, i think the game is broken. And i fail to see where addons makes a difference between casuals and "hardcore". Every casual player i know in WOW uses addons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 In my guild i kicked people that didn´t use addons, in trial runs poor performers (on meters and "fire") was asked to leave as well. I have personally used harsh words when players didn´t bring the addon needed for a certain boss. My point is, i want a game where all that ******** isn´t needed to play. Simply by making it impossible to use addons that goal will be met.. In wow , as i said, enounters were DESIGNED with addons in mind.. Here's the thing though. The API that allows for the creation of add-ons is not the developer's way to somehow cheapen their game. They wouldn't do that. Instead, they consider it an additional tool for players to use, just as any other tool in the game. Do you know how add-ons are born? In my guild, we would assign tasks, people would have stopwatches trying to figure out ability intervals and it was trial and error to figure out what's going on. Then would would use in-game timers to help the raid come together with the formed strategy. At some point after, we would create an add-on package for our guild to use to assist in the communication we were already doing on vent. (So I guess you would say they designed addons with voice communication also, right?) Anyway, to re-cap: developers create the ability for scripts and add-ons to give the hardcore a way to figure out the puzzle and push that solution to other players that want it. It's an important layer in giving a game depth for those that want it, as well as helping those who couldn't figure it out on their own. They WANT hard core players who wish to put that kind of time in to be able to improve the UI to allow them to beat the fight. It's part of the puzzle. It's part of the game. And it's a Good Thing. My informed opinion is that BioWare understands this. They have a great dev team that is very tuned into the MMO player culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazmanius Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Let the e-peenery begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Will not be able to. No end game guild that's serious about progression is going to let a proverbial child into their raid. It won't happen. If you're the odd man out they're essentially 15 manning it. Child eh? trust me, the answer is, i wouldn't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjeldsen Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Here's the thing though. The API that allows for the creation of add-ons is not the developer's way to somehow cheapen their game. They wouldn't do that. Instead, they consider it an additional tool for players to use, just as any other tool in the game. Do you know how add-ons are born? In my guild, we would assign tasks, people would have stopwatches trying to figure out ability intervals and it was trial and error to figure out what's going on. Then would would use in-game timers to help the raid come together with the formed strategy. At some point after, we would create an add-on package for our guild to use to assist in the communication we were already doing on vent. (So I guess you would say they designed addons with voice communication also, right?) Anyway, to re-cap: developers create the ability for scripts and add-ons to give the hardcore a way to figure out the puzzle and push that solution to other players that want it. It's an important layer in giving a game depth for those that want it, as well as helping those who couldn't figure it out on their own. They WANT hard core players who wish to put that kind of time in to be able to improve the UI to allow them to beat the fight. It's part of the puzzle. It's part of the game. And it's a Good Thing. My informed opinion is that BioWare understands this. They have a great dev team that is very tuned into the MMO player culture. But without the ability to use addons the developers would´t have to worry about tuning the encounters to boss mods, meaning that the encounters still have to be hard when the timing is down on paper. And sure, i think every game that involves any kind of Coop has voice communication in mind. But wouldn´t you agree that without DBM the encounters in WOW would be a magnitude harder, even if you used stopwatches? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankinBass Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 I think there is some good points in regards to raidleaders and i think much of what you mention could be handled with combat text without providing detailed information about the encounters in terms of dps,healing etc. And if Blizzard hadn´t allowed addons they would be balancing the raid around the actual game instead of addon mechanics.. decursive anyone? Yes, after the fact and after running it through a parser. A damage meter in game would provide faster and easier access to that information. And Decursive is an excellent example of an addon becoming a problem, but the thing to remember is that the company has ultimate control over what addons can and can not do. Decursive was nuked from orbit when Blizzard got tired of trying to balance raids around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 If i need addons to see the content, i think the game is broken. And i fail to see where addons makes a difference between casuals and "hardcore". Every casual player i know in WOW uses addons You don't NEED them. That's asinine because then they wouldn't be add-ons they would be the UI. They make organizing and analyzing information 1000x easier. It's impossible right now for me to know how much DPS throughput I have. I don't have any reasonable way to monitor my healing efficiency. I don't have any real information about aggro save for mob interactions. I'd also like larger raid frames, more information about who/what is targeting what, and a better cast bar. I'd like customizable debuff/buff icons as well. You remind me of the wall street traders that refuse to use tablets to trade, and stick with paper and pencil. So backwards and ignorant it's shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Child eh? trust me, the answer is, i wouldn't want to. I don't care what you think you would or wouldn't do. Fact is there isn't a single progression raid guild that would take you if you are against using addons. It's irrelevant what you yourself would or wouldn't want to do, you couldn't if you did. Save for starting your own and kicking people for using addons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironix Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 I'd also like larger raid frames, more information about who/what is targeting what, and a better cast bar. I'd like customizable debuff/buff icons as well. Hell, right now I would be happy with raid frames where health bars didn't randomly decide to stop working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmjay Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Hell, right now I would be happy with raid frames where health bars didn't randomly decide to stop working. The raid UI looks abysmal. I don't even understand how it made it to launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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