Why there are a lack of tanks

[Afieri]

I personally enjoy an over zealous dps that wants to tank. The flash points get boring after the hundredth time you have done them so if I am lagging behind because of whatever reason it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone else pulls and tanks for a bit. They know that they pulled, and hopefully they are smart enough to realise what they have done and act accordingly, but at no point in the entire operation/flashpoint will I stop doing my job. Unless if there is a specific reason as to why I don't want a mob pulled at that moment, do what you want, I'm confident enough in my skill as a tank/ the simplicity of tanking in this game to be able to catch up and keep the damage away from everyone.

 

As a dps I have pulled mobs before tanks get there whilst expecting the tank to do his/her job once they get there, but then to drop dead or close enough too, while the tank types out a long lengthy press release about how tanking is the tanks job, blah blah blah. I have defensive cooldowns, I have medpacs, I have threat drops, I can judge for myself what I can take on and what I can't.

 

Yes you get derpy dps, yes you get derpy healers and yes you get derpy tanks, but who cares? You give them advice and its up to them whether they take it or not. Wiping sucks and no one likes it, so do your damnedest to stop it from happening, if a dps is pulling ahead of you, race them for the mob. If they are unloading massive burst and ripping aggro, use that as a basis to test your rotation, if the dps are hitting cced mobs/focusing different mobs/not following kill order, use that as practice for "oh crap" scenarios, get your cooldowns out properly, try to read the situation and predict what to do next. What you shouldn't do is ***** and moan just because you didn't get your jollies off by being the big tough dude that walks in and gets smacked in the face by a mob first.

 

I've run as all classes with some awful pugs, but I used it as motivation to push more out of myself, to try and carry people through so they can have a successful experience, and try to help them along the way. Anything else is ridiculously selfish and flies in the face of the MMO meaning. You aren't king just because you get beaten up better than others, you aren't a god just because you say "LoS here" all you are is a part of a messed up machine that only works when everyone looks out for everyone. Cut the self entitled crap and do your job: looking out for your team.

[Sarielle]

I've run as all classes with some awful pugs, but I used it as motivation to push more out of myself, to try and carry people through so they can have a successful experience, and try to help them along the way. Anything else is ridiculously selfish and flies in the face of the MMO meaning. You aren't king just because you get beaten up better than others, you aren't a god just because you say "LoS here" all you are is a part of a messed up machine that only works when everyone looks out for everyone. Cut the self entitled crap and do your job: looking out for your team.

 

This is how I feel about it, though if they're awful players AND have a bad attitude, I will probably /ignore them once it's over, lol.

[jaliscoautuick]

Tanking is not fun its work.

 

Rule #1 in MMO tanking ------> read above =)

[AlixMV]

Tanking is not fun its work.

 

Remember your Obi-wan: "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

 

I had a lot of fun being last man standing (with my fellow co-tank) against Titan-6 in my Guild's first S&V run, and pulling it out despite our DPS and Healers already believing it was going to be a wipe.

 

There are a lack of tanks because a lot of people only find it fun to pew-pew; the people who feel rewarded for keeping the entire raid alive (tanks and healers) are a lot fewer and farther in between.

[kennethdale]

my hot tichs 1,5k -2,3k on crit, if that is to much threat for you, I'm scared of tossing a biggy one.

joking

 

sages hot is different.

on the contrary, I tried today not hotting before pull, after tank got that 2 gcd of attacks, 1 hot, heal,1 hot (scoundrel/operative dot have 2 stacks to be worth anything), and as much as I noticed I'm getting a bit less attacked, energy managment is a bit more pain in tha bum, but dealable.

 

I get it, pre hots are annoying for the tank. Please understand that pre hotting on scoundrel/operative is quite important for energy managment to have healing efective. it's different to sage/sorc heals. (I get it you didn't run much with mando/merc healers did you)

 

My tanking experience is not all that large (tanked in WoW in BC on a Paladin, just recently leveled and geared a Juggernaut) but I've never had any issues with Pre-Hotting or with any heal aggro except on a mob I haven't hit (which is generally my fault because why haven't I hit it?). As for needing taunts to get something off of a healer: Meh. If they are super far and I have no ranged abilities, then yeah Taunting is going to be the quickest resolution. That said in FPs and Ops, my taunts are usually not being used because of how easy threat is in SWTOR compared to other games I've played so its no issue for me to have a taunt available. In fact, isn't that what taunts are for? Maybe it's me but I feel like people use taunts in SWTOR as threat-builders (which they do given the mechanics) but thats sort of over-kill. A taunt increases your threat 15% over the person with the highest threat on the mob taunted and forces that mob to continue attacking you for 6 seconds. Do you really need that to just hold basic threat?

 

On the other hand, I do use taunt in my opening rotation for bosses when I'm tanking for a Marauder friend of mine who just has insane burst and loves to jump at the same time I do. I view that as a challenge and I DO have to taunt to hold off of him...initially...Saber>Charge>Sundering>Crushing>Smash>Backhand>Taunt and my threat is pretty much tops for the rest of the fight. Since he's starting ~when I charge his Anni rotation starts when I sunder so they line up like this:

 

Saber>Charge>Sunder>Crushing>Smash>Backhand>Taunt

Waiting>Waiting>Charge>Deadly>Battering>Rupture>Annihilate

 

And the only reason I taunt there is because I know that if he crits right, I'm gonna need to taunt so pre-emptively taunting just pushes my threat higher.

 

As for the whole bad DPS in a FP thing, I tend to be a bit more in the middle: If it seems like everyone else is okay with it then meh, I'll go with it. Its sort of fun seeing how long it takes me to get back a pack without taunting. Now if I for example am about to pull a group with a lot of ranged and say in chat "Waiting x seconds for Saber Reflect" (only do it if x<10 seconds) but the DPS jumps in anyways, well then I'll ask him why he would pull while I'm waiting for a CD. If he does it repeatedly, then I'll pick up the stragglers but let him tank the elite he thinks he can solo but I'll have taunt ready for if/when it looks like healer is getting overwhelmed so I can get it back. The only thing that really frustrates me is when without having seen me tank at all (the beginning of a PuG) a DPS or healer decides to tell me how I should be playing.

 

For example, had a Marauder the other day in Cad (who by the way had 95% accuracy and 34% crit, Nice!) telling me I needed to LoS a pull, Ok, well I was going to but thanks. Then I pull, he jumps in before they are LoS'd. That pisses me off.

 

FInally, the whole "why are there so few tanks?" questions is relatively simple:

 

Out of 8 Advanced classes there are 18 DPS trees (PvE viable or not, people play them regardless) vs 3 Tanking trees vs 3 Healing trees. Add to that the pressure that comes with tanking (people expect you to just know everything) and the lack of big numbers or really any type of value that proves you are good (even healers get big crits) and it makes perfect sense. Simplifying it all the way down, assume that there is a list and when rolling a character people are assigned a role, even doing that only 1 out of every 8 people is gonna be a tank, 1 will be a healer and 6 will be a dps. To fill a FP group you end up with 4 DPS without a group. Its simple mathematics.

[inknform]

There are a lack of tanks because a lot of people only find it fun to pew-pew; the people who feel rewarded for keeping the entire raid alive (tanks and healers) are a lot fewer and farther in between.

^this

 

Bottom line, tanks aren't looking for big numbers, we're looking to be attention hogs! We want to pull every mob possible right up to our face, kick 'em in the nuts (provided they have any), and get them enraged enough that they only see the tank(s) and no one else. If your healers are on their game, they'll keep your *** alive, if not, just think of that as an extra challenge.

[LukeTheGeek]

One of the reasons there are fewer tanks, IMHO, is due to responsibility. A dps who drops dead doesn't always mean a wipe, you loose the tank and it's a much more serious situation. The tank is a leader; he controls the pace. Typically if something goes wrong and it's a wipe the tank, or healer, is the first to be blamed. A tank screwing up tends to have bigger consequences than a dps. In a group you can usually win even if several deeps are pulling floor duty.

 

People love seeing big numbers, it strokes their "epeens". In just about every mmo I've played people love going "*** PWN PWN PEW PEW ZOMG I'M AWSOME MAH DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPSSSSSSSSS.NOM NOM NOM" I can't tell you the number of times I've been on a run, or group quest, and someone has called out every crit they had during the entire run.

 

Many people don't want the added pressure of being a leader and the responsibility that implies. They would rather blow up the universe and blame it on the tank or healer when they die.

 

Probably one of the truest statements I've heard in a while. I enjoy tanking because I know what to do. At first when I read some guides before 2.0 I thought "Jesus that's a lot to remember" and can understand why some people wouldn't want to do it.

[Ausgelebt]

SWTOR lacks tanks because few are capable of tanking.

Tanking requires 1) fast pace 2) constant responsibility and 3) awareness.

Most people cannot handle this because they are fools.

 

DPS is just pew-pew weak to strong.

DPS requires no skill whatsoever, which is why a vast majority of players are DPS.

Any monkey with a mouse can DPS.

 

Bad tanking will always be plainly visible. Tanks must take responsibility for tanking.

Bad DPS can simply hide behind good DPS and take credit for good DPS.

Bad DPS likes to hide because bad DPS are cowards and they are retarded.

 

hahahahahaha you have no clue at all get@me

 

I enjoy tanking, I just don't queue groupfinder because 4 outta 5 people are *********** retard that I outplay when I smash my head onto my keyboard. Many other people do the same. Barely any good tank wants to tank groupfinder because of all these trashplayers that should deinstall instantly.

[tommox]

I recently started tanking in SWTOR and it is alright. you just got to learn from your mistakes. I think When people say they want to be invincible and all that rubbish, they are talking about games like city of heroes which i liked and played for a little while but i remember tanking on that game pulling a stupid sized mob but it was a super hero game. This has more mechanics and like all the classes in the game you have to work to be good at it. Do your research and learn from your mistakes. if you dont want to lead then maybe a DPS role is better suited for teams.

[ubermouth]

I personally enjoy an over zealous dps that wants to tank. The flash points get boring after the hundredth time you have done them so if I am lagging behind because of whatever reason it doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone else pulls and tanks for a bit. They know that they pulled, and hopefully they are smart enough to realise what they have done and act accordingly, but at no point in the entire operation/flashpoint will I stop doing my job. Unless if there is a specific reason as to why I don't want a mob pulled at that moment, do what you want, I'm confident enough in my skill as a tank/ the simplicity of tanking in this game to be able to catch up and keep the damage away from everyone.

 

As a dps I have pulled mobs before tanks get there whilst expecting the tank to do his/her job once they get there, but then to drop dead or close enough too, while the tank types out a long lengthy press release about how tanking is the tanks job, blah blah blah. I have defensive cooldowns, I have medpacs, I have threat drops, I can judge for myself what I can take on and what I can't.

 

Yes you get derpy dps, yes you get derpy healers and yes you get derpy tanks, but who cares? You give them advice and its up to them whether they take it or not. Wiping sucks and no one likes it, so do your damnedest to stop it from happening, if a dps is pulling ahead of you, race them for the mob. If they are unloading massive burst and ripping aggro, use that as a basis to test your rotation, if the dps are hitting cced mobs/focusing different mobs/not following kill order, use that as practice for "oh crap" scenarios, get your cooldowns out properly, try to read the situation and predict what to do next. What you shouldn't do is ***** and moan just because you didn't get your jollies off by being the big tough dude that walks in and gets smacked in the face by a mob first.

 

I've run as all classes with some awful pugs, but I used it as motivation to push more out of myself, to try and carry people through so they can have a successful experience, and try to help them along the way. T Anything else is ridiculously selfish and flies in the face of the MMO meaning. You aren't king just because you get beaten up better than others, you aren't a god just because you say "LoS here" all you are is a part of a messed up machine that only works when everyone looks out for everyone. Cut the self entitled crap and do your job: looking out for your team.

 

Nicely put.

You have to accept that people may be completely un interested in following your tactics. People will pull mobs when you tell them not to, will ruin your LoS set up, will dps hero the champ while the weaks and strongs free cast.

Count on every pug run being horribly annoying. Figure out how to mitigate idiocy.

Also, pve dps is for idiots. But, don't get me wrong, I love taking a holiday and queuing as dps.

[wadecounty]

I don't understand this whole LoS pull/HoT debate when none of the flashpoints are even remotely difficult enough to require LoS pulls anyways.

 

Do I like DPS/healers that think like a tank? AKA, kill weak to strong, help use stuns to lower incoming damage, contribute with interrupts, allow me to leap in first on pulls, hold heals back at the start of a tough pull to ensure they don't pull a ranged mob that I can't reach right away? Sure.

 

But it's not necessary for me. Now, don't be a complete tool sure, but I'm not going to pout when I'm in a PUG group and I don't get to control everything. To me those tanks are as bad as actual bad tanks, if you can't handle a small amount of disorganization you probably aren't as good of a tank as you thought you were. That can be part of the fun at times anyways, turning a messy pull into a good tanking job.

 

I absolutely hate control freak tanks when I end up getting a pop as a DPS, the type that have to LoS every single pull, mark all CC's, force you to only attack their target, stop and plan out every pull, etc. It just kills all the fun and flow of a flashpoint. SWTOR is not EQ, the flashpoints in this game are designed with mobs that the DPS and healers can handle themselves, the tank does not have to tank EVERYTHING.

Edited September 24, 2013 by wadecounty

[Kingsbount]

Personally, i think that main reason for lacking of tanks is gearing.

It takes too much time and problems to properly gear tank.

 

But thats only my opinion...

[Juan-sith]

I don't understand this whole LoS pull/HoT debate when none of the flashpoints are even remotely difficult enough to require LoS pulls anyways.

 

Do I like DPS/healers that think like a tank? AKA, kill weak to strong, help use stuns to lower incoming damage, contribute with interrupts, allow me to leap in first on pulls, hold heals back at the start of a tough pull to ensure they don't pull a ranged mob that I can't reach right away? Sure.

 

But it's not necessary for me. Now, don't be a complete tool sure, but I'm not going to pout when I'm in a PUG group and I don't get to control everything. To me those tanks are as bad as actual bad tanks, if you can't handle a small amount of disorganization you probably aren't as good of a tank as you thought you were. That can be part of the fun at times anyways, turning a messy pull into a good tanking job.

 

I absolutely hate control freak tanks when I end up getting a pop as a DPS, the type that have to LoS every single pull, mark all CC's, force you to only attack their target, stop and plan out every pull, etc. It just kills all the fun and flow of a flashpoint. SWTOR is not EQ, the flashpoints in this game are designed with mobs that the DPS and healers can handle themselves, the tank does not have to tank EVERYTHING.

 

What he said..

[kennethdale]

I don't understand this whole LoS pull/HoT debate when none of the flashpoints are even remotely difficult enough to require LoS pulls anyways.

 

Do I like DPS/healers that think like a tank? AKA, kill weak to strong, help use stuns to lower incoming damage, contribute with interrupts, allow me to leap in first on pulls, hold heals back at the start of a tough pull to ensure they don't pull a ranged mob that I can't reach right away? Sure.

 

But it's not necessary for me. Now, don't be a complete tool sure, but I'm not going to pout when I'm in a PUG group and I don't get to control everything. To me those tanks are as bad as actual bad tanks, if you can't handle a small amount of disorganization you probably aren't as good of a tank as you thought you were. That can be part of the fun at times anyways, turning a messy pull into a good tanking job.

 

I absolutely hate control freak tanks when I end up getting a pop as a DPS, the type that have to LoS every single pull, mark all CC's, force you to only attack their target, stop and plan out every pull, etc. It just kills all the fun and flow of a flashpoint. SWTOR is not EQ, the flashpoints in this game are designed with mobs that the DPS and healers can handle themselves, the tank does not have to tank EVERYTHING.

 

The issue here is that you're looking at it as though there are two possibilities: The tank controlling everything and the DPS/Healer just sort of having a little fun. More often than not in PuG FPs, there is one DPS who isn't just not attacking your target they're pulling groups, they're breaking CC, and then when they die they decide to tell either the healer, the tank, or sometimes both that they suck. I don't typically mark while I'm tanking, and I don't do a lot of LoSing (there are a few pulls that are exceptions for LoS but thats just to group stuff up for easier AoEing) but I do get *****y with DPS at times. Here is a real story:

 

A friend needed a FP for some comms and asked me to tank for him, and I agreed. We queued up, got a PuG DPS and healer and started plowing through Cad. You know all that trash at the bottom of the elevator? Well the PuG DPS pulled one of the groups. Fair enough, mistakes happen and that's what I have an AoE taunt for, right? So I pick up all the adds save for one or two weaks but then I see the PuG DPS's HP dropping like a rock. Swing my camera around and he's pulled ANOTHER one of the groups. How did he pull it? Was it a bad AoE? Was it a knockback? Nope, he jumped in. When I asked him why his response was (this is a 55 HM FP) "I need the XP." At this point I figured he's probably new to MMOs and just hit 55 so I politely explain that there isn't XP in a 55 HM FP because we're all max level. I'm explaining this while the healer rezzes him, after which he replies "yd u let me die aswhipe?" (I saved screenshots because I couldn't believe him). I said that I had already used my AoE taunt to get the first group together and wasn't anywhere near the second so it was a bit of work and time to get them on me. "Nah ur jus stupdi. L2p dumass" and he quit the group. People like that do not make tanking more fun. They make the game worse for everyone and the number of people who act like that is staggering.

 

I have, in the past, ninja-respecced to DPS when a DPS decided they should be doing the pulling. I have used a threat drop to kill a stupid DPS. Once in 16m SnV HM we wiped an entire raid (15 of us in guild vs 1 PuG) to force an idiot to leave (No one went up on Thrasher, MT stood in front of gate, and we dropped the first firebug on top of him). Could these situations have been handled differently? Sure. But I thoroughly believe that fools deserve foolishness.

[bdatt]

I don't tank in group finder because the gear obtained from commendations doesn't help me, and I get enough comms running operations to feed gear to my alts. Even though my main tank is only in a mix of Arkanian/Underworld, all of the verpine mods and enhancements would be a mitigation downgrade, and the armorings a would kill my set bonus. If Bioware added even 1 piece of verpine with unlettered mods and low endurance enhancements, I would do my weekly FPs and classic op every week, but as it is I just run HM TFB and SnV for Underworld, and only run FPs to help guildmates, since DDs and healers can scavenge *some* useful gear from comms.

[wainot-keel]

I don't tank in group finder because the gear obtained from commendations doesn't help me, and I get enough comms running operations to feed gear to my alts. Even though my main tank is only in a mix of Arkanian/Underworld, all of the verpine mods and enhancements would be a mitigation downgrade, and the armorings a would kill my set bonus. If Bioware added even 1 piece of verpine with unlettered mods and low endurance enhancements, I would do my weekly FPs and classic op every week, but as it is I just run HM TFB and SnV for Underworld, and only run FPs to help guildmates, since DDs and healers can scavenge *some* useful gear from comms.

 

So true. Most comms I got with my jugg tank I spent them on her offspec gear, or alts. Tanking gear with comms is terrible. And yeah, now i only queue as tank when a guildie/friend needs one

[Grumpftard]

I think the answer to why there are lack of tanks is actually a coagulated sum of what everyone has stated.

 

A) As the tank you do have some elevated responsibility. (Not getting into the whole "control" argument)

B) It is not as easy to flex the e-peen like a DPS.

C) It requires a different focal point compared to a DPS or healer. (ie: there's more going on than just watching my DPS rotation)

D) The majority of the "average" player base doesn't wanna have to mess with fine tuning the gear

E) The ratio in the number of tank classes vs DPS classes.

 

A lot of the comments here try and point to a "specific" thing. It's really a combination of all of it combined.

I've been tanking this game since launch, but on occasion I like to grab my grab my Deeps toon just to relax. mainly for A, C, and D. DPS is like a vacation to me.

[Bilirubin]

I'm finding as a tank queueing for GF that I am having to wait on heals to join in

[Jedi_riches]

The main reason I dont run any tanks is due to the following:

 

1) I understand that as the tank you are the "leader" and are expected to know all of the boss mechanics ahead of time which I personally find difficult it is much easier to follow and just DPS.

2) I am trying to gear my alts with my cybertech main which do not churn out any tanking mods intill about level 30+

 

3) Although I try I cannot fully understand game mechanics so I dont really know how to "balance" my gear and stats so my gear probably is not efficient for tanking.

 

Although I try to learn, I find it is much easier being a DPS as there are only a few simple rules to follow.

[Gloomycakes]

I'm finding as a tank queueing for GF that I am having to wait on heals to join in

 

Getting that more and more lately aswell, which at first made me happily relog to healer for an instant queue and a change from tanking.

 

For me the new commendation system and drops are the reason to not do any HM FPs unless asked by a friend (especially DPS) because

1. Commendations always go towards a non-tank alt. Healers can 'scavenge' Quick Savant Enhancement and Unlettered Mods, DPS can 'scavenge' Unlettered mods and Tanks get nothing (except maybe Assassins/Shadows which can profit from B mods due to their spikyness.)

2. The overall attitude, whether it's a DPS not finishing off a mob before moving on (and then pull the next) or a healer who's insulted if they need to do more than 1k HPS a times to keep you up. (A healer ragequitting and then finishing the FP with Treek healing you... ) and ninja-looters

3. Rewards in general, I don't feel I'm helping out my friends a lot by doing a Flashpoint with them, where-as before 2.0 I saw the usefulness for almost anyone whether it was for the set-bonus or tokens for BH mods and it's a lot more pleasent when 1. You can chose to do a quick 20 min nerfed LI run or 2. Have a lot more options than just 6 FPs (though they already went up from 4, so thank you bioware!)

 

I don't mind being tossed around by a mob (walls ftw,) because I will still control them. You don't need a parse or a big critical to see if you're doing your job well or not. It's about where the enemy mob is and how easy you make it for your team to do their job, be it by gathering the foes for AoE, facing them away from your backstabbing stealthers or keeping them safe. Just look at your screen. I don't mind not being as god-like as before 2.0, nothing wrong with being squishier though this is highly biased from playing a healer aswell. I love a DPS challanging me for the threat (by simply dealing beast-DPS not by being an idiot who uses his taunt) and so on.

[GalacticKegger]

But it's not necessary for me. Now, don't be a complete tool sure, but I'm not going to pout when I'm in a PUG group and I don't get to control everything. To me those tanks are as bad as actual bad tanks, if you can't handle a small amount of disorganization you probably aren't as good of a tank as you thought you were. That can be part of the fun at times anyways, turning a messy pull into a good tanking job.

This needs to be framed. Bringing order from chaos is what real tanks relish the most imho.

[Bilirubin]

I actually find pulling aggro off of SENT SMASH without taunting a bit of extra entertainment in flash points. I certainly don't mind leap frogging the DPS to the next trash mob as long as heal's resources are sound. If they die, and we don't, its all good.

[brainpsyk]

I honestly think that misbehaving DPS are one of the big reasons why there are fewer tanks than there would be otherwise.

 

This is why I love tanking. Dumb DPS = Dead DPS. In the first ~20 seconds of a fight is when the DPS will pull off you, but a couple taunt fluffs will take care of that. But, in a multiple-nasty-mob situation, if a particular DPS keeps going after the wrong mob, I let them die. They quickly get the hint.

 

Just last night, leveling/gearing my new guardian tank, a full-72 geared sentinel kept pulling aggro. He did zero dps shortly into SM Kephess. The other tank actually lost aggro, because this guy kept pulling aggro off him. The sentinel actually pulled aggro twice. Pulled it once, tank taunted back. Pulled it again, and I let him die.

 

As the tank, you control whether or not you live. I control whether or not you die.

[Evilgaw]

Lack of tanks don't mean their not fun to play. Most people play dps because its simple, just follow a rotation and if your a **** dps you can be hidden and carried by the better ones. Noone plays tanks because they lack the skill. Prove me wrong and play a tank and be good at it.

[belfulgur]

One of the reasons there are fewer tanks, IMHO, is due to responsibility. A dps who drops dead doesn't always mean a wipe, you loose the tank and it's a much more serious situation. The tank is a leader; he controls the pace. Typically if something goes wrong and it's a wipe the tank, or healer, is the first to be blamed. A tank screwing up tends to have bigger consequences than a dps. In a group you can usually win even if several deeps are pulling floor duty.

 

People love seeing big numbers, it strokes their "epeens". In just about every mmo I've played people love going "*** PWN PWN PEW PEW ZOMG I'M AWSOME MAH DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPSSSSSSSSS.NOM NOM NOM" I can't tell you the number of times I've been on a run, or group quest, and someone has called out every crit they had during the entire run.

 

Many people don't want the added pressure of being a leader and the responsibility that implies. They would rather blow up the universe and blame it on the tank or healer when they die.

 

 

ive read a few of these types of posts, on several games, and very rarely comment, in most cases i disagree with whats being said because its wrong, or i think its wrong, but in this case im disagreeing with something i know should be right and isnt, " tanks control the pace" they should, but they dont, its the crazy dps shouting go go, charging of ahead, the bane of every tanks life, that ruin the game for us, then sit there after a wipe saying ***, pug dps can make or break a group, and any dps with a modicum of skill( =common sense) have been snapped up by guilds as a responsible dps is a far rarer thing than available tanks in 55hms, if your a go go dps reading this look in the mirror, then slap yourself,