Why there are a lack of tanks

[AAAAzrael]

I don't understand this gear issue. Maybe I am extremely lucky (although /rolls in operations don't prove it) but I was L55 after 6hours of early access on my shadow tank, and I had full black market (except for set-bonus armorings) 2 evenings later. It's a bit of a grind, but not much. We did with a healer from my guild maybe 20 FP's then taking time off to run some classic NiM ops for people who were still levelling/gearing up. We weren't playing 24/7 either. Only after that it got slow due to lockouts and only one run of TFB/S&V per week (my guild is not as good as to run HM's undergeared and get 4 clears for gearing up).

 

Also I don't find the knockbacks an issue. Sometimes you don't see too much that's true, but at least you are in the middle of action. I was DPSing S&V the other day for the first time so that 2 new tanks could train and I could give some suggestions and that was comparatively much less pressure and adrenaline then tanking. Acquire focus target's target, follow rotation, watch proc's, step out of AOE's, step into healing circles, that's it.... Not that raiding is not fun as DPS, but it's nowhere near as intense and involving on relaxed level. I guess it's different in hardest content, but I'm not geared to DPS that.

 

Anyway I just wanted to say I really don't understand what's wrong with being a tank. Most people who avoid it give following reasons: responsibility, must lead, must know all the tactics. Never heard anyone complain about knockbacks tbh.

[Eternalnight]

and I had full black market ... 2 evenings later.

 

Whenever someone says they were in full black market gear in such and such time makes me suspect they are just wearing any and all items they can get, no matter how horribly badly it is itemized.

 

Most of the Black Market gear (that is more than half of the items that drop and literally ALL of the items that can be bought with commendations) are just useless junk. Even if you leave out the junk with alacrity and such, even majority of the pieces that 2 just mitigation stats have these overly endurance heavy enhancements that have less absorption/defense than some items more than 4 gear tiers below them

[Leafy_Bug]

So a few people had luck with the drops therefore drops are fine

[AAAAzrael]

Whenever someone says they were in full black market gear in such and such time makes me suspect they are just wearing any and all items they can get, no matter how horribly badly it is itemized.

 

Most of the Black Market gear (that is more than half of the items that drop and literally ALL of the items that can be bought with commendations) are just useless junk. Even if you leave out the junk with alacrity and such, even majority of the pieces that 2 just mitigation stats have these overly endurance heavy enhancements that have less absorption/defense than some items more than 4 gear tiers below them

 

Black market gear is utterly terrible of course, but it still let's you do FP's without major hassle and SM ops as well. There is no point in trying to itemise BM gear too much as you really need Arcanian to do that (and some Verpine pieces are actually useful as well). After one week or so I didn't anything that could possibly drop in FP's. I really don't know why people say it's such a pain to farm 69 gear in FP's. On the other hand it takes ages to farm set-bonus gear in ops, but that is probably good thing as otherwise you loose any reason to do them.

[Maelael]

I don't understand this gear issue. Maybe I am extremely lucky (although /rolls in operations don't prove it) but I was L55 after 6hours of early access on my shadow tank, and I had full black market (except for set-bonus armorings) 2 evenings later. It's a bit of a grind, but not much. We did with a healer from my guild maybe 20 FP's then taking time off to run some classic NiM ops for people who were still levelling/gearing up. We weren't playing 24/7 either. Only after that it got slow due to lockouts and only one run of TFB/S&V per week (my guild is not as good as to run HM's undergeared and get 4 clears for gearing up).

 

Also I don't find the knockbacks an issue. Sometimes you don't see too much that's true, but at least you are in the middle of action. I was DPSing S&V the other day for the first time so that 2 new tanks could train and I could give some suggestions and that was comparatively much less pressure and adrenaline then tanking. Acquire focus target's target, follow rotation, watch proc's, step out of AOE's, step into healing circles, that's it.... Not that raiding is not fun as DPS, but it's nowhere near as intense and involving on relaxed level. I guess it's different in hardest content, but I'm not geared to DPS that.

 

Anyway I just wanted to say I really don't understand what's wrong with being a tank. Most people who avoid it give following reasons: responsibility, must lead, must know all the tactics. Never heard anyone complain about knockbacks tbh.

 

You get about one piece of 69 min maxed a week with Elite coms. Kinda. As opposed to being able to gear out in full partisan in 7-11 days, counting min maxing.

 

I'm glad you had some lucky drops - I still haven't. On either of my 55s (I have a healer sorc and a tank jugg).

 

I'm just saying the knockback frequency on bosses makes it too boring to be worth it for no loot. I'm one of the exceptions I guess that Responsibility, Leading, and knowing tactics isn't a bother for me (I usually pick up the tactics in my first 1-2 goes of having someone explain, or if I watch a few vids). I'm mostly stating my viewpoint - If you're lucky enough to get loot to drop with good frequency for you, and you don't mind sitting in a wall and looking at pretty much nothing for some bosses, thats totally cool in my book. It's just not for me.

[AAAAzrael]

You get about one piece of 69 min maxed a week with Elite coms. Kinda. As opposed to being able to gear out in full partisan in 7-11 days, counting min maxing.

 

I'm glad you had some lucky drops - I still haven't. On either of my 55s (I have a healer sorc and a tank jugg).

 

I'm just saying the knockback frequency on bosses makes it too boring to be worth it for no loot. I'm one of the exceptions I guess that Responsibility, Leading, and knowing tactics isn't a bother for me (I usually pick up the tactics in my first 1-2 goes of having someone explain, or if I watch a few vids). I'm mostly stating my viewpoint - If you're lucky enough to get loot to drop with good frequency for you, and you don't mind sitting in a wall and looking at pretty much nothing for some bosses, thats totally cool in my book. It's just not for me.

 

Luckily not everyone has to like the same thing

 

I find being mDPS in my off-spec on my main which I sometimes do if guild is 1 short for easier ops, or they want me to give some advise to new tanks, to be quite boring. Even though balance shadow is actually quite complicated to play in terms of rotation etc.

[drtnap]

So nobody feels like nerfing tanks and buffing dps and heals is contributing to the lack of tanks.

Maybe this mmo isnt like all the rest where everybody wants to play the op classes.

Maybe this community is the one exception.

hmm.

[Kitru]

You get about one piece of 69 min maxed a week with Elite coms. Kinda.

 

You'd be hard pressed to call anything built out of commendation gear "min/maxed": there are only B variant mods and *terrible* enhancements (high end, low mitigation, *at best*) on commendation gear. Unless you think that some of the stuff is decent *raw*, you're never going to get anything optimized out of commendation gear.

[Maelael]

You'd be hard pressed to call anything built out of commendation gear "min/maxed": there are only B variant mods and *terrible* enhancements (high end, low mitigation, *at best*) on commendation gear. Unless you think that some of the stuff is decent *raw*, you're never going to get anything optimized out of commendation gear.

 

Hence my "Kinda" comment. I don't mind B mods and just go nuts with enhancements and augs (Im a crafter, so I make money hand over foot - I can switch augs and not even blink at my bankroll). But yea, they aren't BIS stat wise 69+.

 

An aside: Dunno, I'm shopping for a guild who does (preferably casual) rateds and ops, but I can't find either that isn't full of absolute idiots or outright elitards atm. BC is kinda a (bleep)hole right now on the imp side, and its not fun queuing against the haxors/macroers from the Pub side. Funny, I found 3 guilds nearly instantly on the Pub side that are into the Casual Ops and will do Rateds casually. So yea, maybe in a few months something will pop up and Ill get to do all these cool things I've read about, and done a few times on my healer sorc.

 

So nobody feels like nerfing tanks and buffing dps and heals is contributing to the lack of tanks.

 

Okay so I started playing in April, but been doing MMOs for a very long time. I don't know about any tank nerfs other than maybe taking away automatic aggro generation from taunts (Which imho, makes tanking less derpy and more challenging, I like that). So explain? Cause right now I feel aggro hold is kinda...easy as hell in this game.

 

Heals are over the top, but thats a good thing for PvE (lolfest of never dying for PvP)

Edited June 21, 2013 by Maelael

[Kitru]

I don't know about any tank nerfs other than maybe taking away automatic aggro generation from taunts (Which imho, makes tanking less derpy and more challenging, I like that).

 

Taunts still generate boatloads of aggro so I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here.

 

The "nerfs* aren't so much reductions in the explicit effectiveness of tanks in a vacuum but rather the effectiveness of tanks in practice: the content, right now, is designed such that (with the exception of a *couple* DPS intensive fights) it's a lot more intense for tanks than either of the other roles (especially with the need to burn tank CDs at specific times to survive/mitigate big hits), not to mention the same placement/CC/aggro generation stuff that's always been there.

[Maelael]

Taunts still generate boatloads of aggro so I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about here.

 

The "nerfs* aren't so much reductions in the explicit effectiveness of tanks in a vacuum but rather the effectiveness of tanks in practice: the content, right now, is designed such that (with the exception of a *couple* DPS intensive fights) it's a lot more intense for tanks than either of the other roles (especially with the need to burn tank CDs at specific times to survive/mitigate big hits), not to mention the same placement/CC/aggro generation stuff that's always been there.

 

You sure? I mean other than forcing them to stay on you esp with Reflect up. I swear between the tooltip and stuff I've read it just forces them to attack you, no aggro generation intrinsic in the skill. Don't get me wrong, I blow it every time its off CD out of habit...

 

Yea the stuff you described I kinda expected to be part of the strategy you need to follow - thats not a nerf, thats a style/difficulty change. That should be welcomed - just standing still and facerolling skills is about as fun as watching grass grow.

[Kitru]

You sure?

 

Yes. At the moment it is used, all taunts (both AoE and ST) generate sufficient threat to place you at the level of threat required to pull off of whoever currently has top threat (including yourself, if you're the current target). If you're standing in the melee threat range (within 4m of the center of the target's model rather than 4m of the *outside* of the target's model; yes, the range for threat is different than the range for everything else), you get placed at 110% of current target's threat. If you're standing outside of that range (which every tank *should* be), you get placed at 130% of current target's threat.

 

Taunt is the reason that the threat game is a such a joke. You only have to care about it for the first 15 seconds or so, when threat becomes large enough that you can pretty much keep threat by spamming taunt and doing nothing else.

[Maelael]

Yes. At the moment it is used, all taunts (both AoE and ST) generate sufficient threat to place you at the level of threat required to pull off of whoever currently has top threat (including yourself, if you're the current target). If you're standing in the melee threat range (within 4m of the center of the target's model rather than 4m of the *outside* of the target's model; yes, the range for threat is different than the range for everything else), you get placed at 110% of current target's threat. If you're standing outside of that range (which every tank *should* be), you get placed at 130% of current target's threat.

 

Taunt is the reason that the threat game is a such a joke. You only have to care about it for the first 15 seconds or so, when threat becomes large enough that you can pretty much keep threat by spamming taunt and doing nothing else.

 

I'll test this then. Interesting, I read differently in many other posts that this changed after 2.0.

[Kitru]

I'll test this then. Interesting, I read differently in many other posts that this changed after 2.0.

 

I'm not sure *where* you saw this, since it's not even in the patch notes anywhere, is referenced to behave *exactly as I stated* in a whole *load* of threat generation posts (and, when someone mentions it incorrectly, it gets corrected almost instantly), and behaves *exactly as indicated* in the combat log. There's pretty much no evidence anywhere that it's *ever* changed (and it's actually been this way since *launch*, when a dev explicitly came down and told use that's *exactly* how it worked).

 

Of course, I've seen top tier progression raiders who had no clue about the whole "threat range" being different than range in every other sense of the term, when it's been known since about 2 months after release, as well as raiders that had no clue that there are only 5 platforms on TfB where the boss attacks you with MR attacks and every other platform is F/T K/E (which also hit a *lot* harder). As such, I'm no longer surprised at the ignorance that many even top tier players have about mechanics that aren't patently obvious (Jesse Sky and Amber Green both told me that *both* of them thought the whole "melee platforms v. ranged platforms" thing was patently obvious because the TfB uses different animations and different names for each attack, so even the devs are dumbfounded at the obliviousness of some players).

[Maelael]

I'm not sure *where* you saw this, since it's not even in the patch notes anywhere, is referenced to behave *exactly as I stated* in a whole *load* of threat generation posts (and, when someone mentions it incorrectly, it gets corrected almost instantly), and behaves *exactly as indicated* in the combat log. There's pretty much no evidence anywhere that it's *ever* changed (and it's actually been this way since *launch*, when a dev explicitly came down and told use that's *exactly* how it worked).

 

Of course, I've seen top tier progression raiders who had no clue about the whole "threat range" being different than range in every other sense of the term, when it's been known since about 2 months after release, as well as raiders that had no clue that there are only 5 platforms on TfB where the boss attacks you with MR attacks and every other platform is F/T K/E (which also hit a *lot* harder). As such, I'm no longer surprised at the ignorance that many even top tier players have about mechanics that aren't patently obvious (Jesse Sky and Amber Green both told me that *both* of them thought the whole "melee platforms v. ranged platforms" thing was patently obvious because the TfB uses different animations and different names for each attack, so even the devs are dumbfounded at the obliviousness of some players).

 

Totally, and if I didn't believe you I wouldn't be testing it. I'm by far still learning PvE and picking up on little stuff people take for granted.

 

I can share in the "no longer surprised" as the sorcs and sages that don't know about instant cast puddle heal comes up daily for me.

[BoyWonder]

I stopped tanking for folks, now it works out fine.

[Mazikeen]

There are no problems with tanking mechanics in this game. None. I have been tanking in pretty much every major MMO for the past 13 years, so I have the experience to back this up.

 

The problems with tanking in this game are the people. Healers who put HoTs on tanks before a pull (which generates aggro immediately), DPS who jump into battle immediately (instead of letting the tank establish threat), people breaking CC (something I've done as DPS, but always tanked the mob I broke) and generally not accepting responsibility for their roles in a group/raid.

 

This is why, when I tank, I play by old-school rules. The real old-school rules, not WoW rules. You break CC, you tank it. You pull threat by accident, I'll save you, you do it on purpose, you tank it. I don't care if you die. I don't really care if we wipe (repair costs are reasonable). I am the tank, you will play by my rules, there is no negotiation. On the flip side, my rules are reasonable.

 

* Let me establish threat. This means give me 3 seconds, roughly, to get off a couple of skills

* The tank pulls. Period. The only time I allow someone else to pull is if I specifically tell them to or they're snagging an incoming patrol I did not see

* DPS is as responsible for their threat as I am for mine. If you regularly pull threat, throttle back on the damage. It may be gear, I may be having a bad day, it doesn't matter. Adjust or die.

* Healers are never to HoT me immediately before a pull. If you do, I will warn you once. If you ignore me, I will let you die, healer or not.

* If I call 'LoS pull' and you interrupt my pull, you will tank. If you don't know what LoS means (Line of Sight, BTW) then ask. I'll think you're stupid or new, but respect you.

* You will not push me to pull faster, or pull larger groups. It is my job to know what to pull, when and how. While I will, on occasion, mess up you will not dictate my job to me. If you do, you will do my job or find another tank (or group, since chances are you'll get kicked before I am).

* If you are questioning my abilities or style, you may ask (civilly) if I am new. If I tell you I am a veteran tank, you will drop the subject and move on. If you have a suggestion, you may ask if I care to hear it. If you tell me how to do my job without me asking you to do so, you will be removed (or I will go elsewhere).

 

These are standard rules and should be followed at all times. If everyone followed these rules (and occasionally said 'thank you') then there would be more tanks.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Mazikeen

[Anosa]

i think a agro bar would assist in tanks enjoying it slightly more.. i know in EQ2 when they created a agro bar i got a little more attracted to tanking just because i could see the field of whats going on a little better.

[Noctari]

The tank is a leader; he controls the pace.

I so want you to tell that to the **** ton of retarded DPS I've had the misfortune of being forced to group with via groupfinder.

[Hockaday]

This is my point, tanking in pve makes you a plaything for even weak mobs, and grabbing and keeping aggro is a pain in the ***. What? I know some, if not a lot of mobs have knock backs. But that isn't really a problem. You learn to understand it, and usually avoid it. As for agro...agro is so easy in this game for most cases. Yeah, some aoe fights you're not going to hold -everything-...but SW:TOR isn't really set up for holding everything. Tank priorities is to hold the strongest mobs. The dps can handle the weaker. If you want agro problems, play EQ2.

Also there were already a lack of tanks queing for hmfp at 50. Because level 50 is not cap, most of the tanks are at 55. Furthermore, the XP from flashpoints is so minor, it's not worth it to grind them.

Then devs nerfed the **** out of tanks AND buffed the crap out of dps and heals on the way to 55.

Why would i want to run on my underpowered totally dependant tank when i can be on an overpowered self sufficient healer or commando? What? Tanks aren't nerfed at all. Sins are kinda screwy atm and Jugs are kinda OP...but hopefully that will be balanced sooner rather than later. DPS and Healers are not Overpowered. Again, if you want to see that, go to EQ2. As for underpowered and dependant...that is all on you I believe. Either your spec, rotation, or gear is all off. None of my tanks need anyone...and don't use healer companions. I suggest using Dipstik's or Keyboardninja's thread on stats / relics. I also suggest, maybe trying a powertech or vanguard as a tank. They're dead simple, and best aoe agro. And literally nothing to do on them but use a small rotation.

And to be clear i define power in tanking as the ability to resist damage and to grab and keep aggro.

 

In red.

[Hockaday]

The problems with tanking in this game are the people. Healers who put HoTs on tanks before a pull (which generates aggro immediately), DPS who jump into battle immediately (instead of letting the tank establish threat), people breaking CC (something I've done as DPS, but always tanked the mob I broke) and generally not accepting responsibility for their roles in a group/raid.

 

This is why, when I tank, I play by old-school rules. The real old-school rules, not WoW rules. You break CC, you tank it. You pull threat by accident, I'll save you, you do it on purpose, you tank it. I don't care if you die. I don't really care if we wipe (repair costs are reasonable). I am the tank, you will play by my rules, there is no negotiation. On the flip side, my rules are reasonable.

 

* Let me establish threat. This means give me 3 seconds, roughly, to get off a couple of skills

* The tank pulls. Period. The only time I allow someone else to pull is if I specifically tell them to or they're snagging an incoming patrol I did not see

* DPS is as responsible for their threat as I am for mine. If you regularly pull threat, throttle back on the damage. It may be gear, I may be having a bad day, it doesn't matter. Adjust or die.

* Healers are never to HoT me immediately before a pull. If you do, I will warn you once. If you ignore me, I will let you die, healer or not.

* If I call 'LoS pull' and you interrupt my pull, you will tank. If you don't know what LoS means (Line of Sight, BTW) then ask. I'll think you're stupid or new, but respect you.

* You will not push me to pull faster, or pull larger groups. It is my job to know what to pull, when and how. While I will, on occasion, mess up you will not dictate my job to me. If you do, you will do my job or find another tank (or group, since chances are you'll get kicked before I am).

* If you are questioning my abilities or style, you may ask (civilly) if I am new. If I tell you I am a veteran tank, you will drop the subject and move on. If you have a suggestion, you may ask if I care to hear it. If you tell me how to do my job without me asking you to do so, you will be removed (or I will go elsewhere).

 

These are standard rules and should be followed at all times. If everyone followed these rules (and occasionally said 'thank you') then there would be more tanks.

 

My good man! You are as if a brother to me with those tanking techniques. It seems we are a dying breed, you and I.

 

Though...I do have another thing I do. Since I generally run with my pocket healer, I tell her not to heal the dps in question. If they are acting up, ofcourse.

[TheRampage]

There are plenty of tanks around, only problem is there is no point for them to go where they are missing the most - GF.

 

but.. if Bioware wouzld give me aditional rewards (like in wow) I would do couple of fp a day.

[AAAAzrael]

* Healers are never to HoT me immediately before a pull. If you do, I will warn you once. If you ignore me, I will let you die, healer or not.

 

 

Weird, I never ever had a problem due to healer pulling threat because of that. We actually always to that for boss fights as n positioning phase it's kind of hard for healers to heal and before I put by both debuffs on the boss I'm going to take more damage. It maybe might be issue in trash packs, but then healers do have aggro dumps and good ones use them. Anyway I wouldn't call this a no no.

[Bloodcharged]

There are no problems with tanking mechanics in this game. None. I have been tanking in pretty much every major MMO for the past 13 years, so I have the experience to back this up.

 

The problems with tanking in this game are the people. Healers who put HoTs on tanks before a pull (which generates aggro immediately), DPS who jump into battle immediately (instead of letting the tank establish threat), people breaking CC (something I've done as DPS, but always tanked the mob I broke) and generally not accepting responsibility for their roles in a group/raid.

 

This is why, when I tank, I play by old-school rules. The real old-school rules, not WoW rules. You break CC, you tank it. You pull threat by accident, I'll save you, you do it on purpose, you tank it. I don't care if you die. I don't really care if we wipe (repair costs are reasonable). I am the tank, you will play by my rules, there is no negotiation. On the flip side, my rules are reasonable.

 

* Let me establish threat. This means give me 3 seconds, roughly, to get off a couple of skills

* The tank pulls. Period. The only time I allow someone else to pull is if I specifically tell them to or they're snagging an incoming patrol I did not see

* DPS is as responsible for their threat as I am for mine. If you regularly pull threat, throttle back on the damage. It may be gear, I may be having a bad day, it doesn't matter. Adjust or die.

* Healers are never to HoT me immediately before a pull. If you do, I will warn you once. If you ignore me, I will let you die, healer or not.

* If I call 'LoS pull' and you interrupt my pull, you will tank. If you don't know what LoS means (Line of Sight, BTW) then ask. I'll think you're stupid or new, but respect you.

* You will not push me to pull faster, or pull larger groups. It is my job to know what to pull, when and how. While I will, on occasion, mess up you will not dictate my job to me. If you do, you will do my job or find another tank (or group, since chances are you'll get kicked before I am).

* If you are questioning my abilities or style, you may ask (civilly) if I am new. If I tell you I am a veteran tank, you will drop the subject and move on. If you have a suggestion, you may ask if I care to hear it. If you tell me how to do my job without me asking you to do so, you will be removed (or I will go elsewhere).

 

These are standard rules and should be followed at all times. If everyone followed these rules (and occasionally said 'thank you') then there would be more tanks.

 

And this is why people despise tanks, stopping between every damn pull going at a turtles pace. Then again I guess this is how you have to play with you keyboard turning and clicking ya know

[drtnap]

You folks all say tanks arent nerfed but overnight the 30 50 50 defense shield and absorb plunged thru the floor..

My defense was almost halved and shield and absorb went down by over ten percent.

How is that not a nerf?

I know im supposed to grind gear to get it back up right?

Well the day after the patch none of my healers or dps were less effective.

They only grew more powerful.

And from reading what alot of folks who prefer tanking say they seem to be a bunch egomaniac elitist jerks whom i wouldnt enjoy playing with anyway.

Its just a game loosen up.

Edited June 23, 2013 by drtnap