Fix scoundrel/operative healers now!

[MotorCityMan]

This falls apart when you consider just trying to kill a scoundrel/operative. It's not that the dps doesn't die (even though it doesn't when a healer is on their back), it's that the scoundrel/operative doesn't die when it has a dps on ITS back. If you can't kill the healer 1v1, you can't kill anything. This is true for all healers, actually, and is evident when each team has multiple competent healers, as no one dies. And no one dying is worse than when 2.0 first launched and TTK was down to like 3-4.5 seconds (which was also really stupid, but at least stuff *happened*).

 

No, it's not that the healer doesn't die 1v1 a dps, (don't forget the dps doesn't die either), it's that a dps won't die when attacked by 2-3 and supported by a healer. That's the problem. This could be rectified by reducing the end of dps and/or increasing the trauma, and perhaps reducing or removing some defensive CDs. Perhaps the easiest and most sensible way would be to reduce the healing received expertise buff on dps. This would let them die more thusly satisfying those that want more "stuff happening", without interfering with pve balance.

Edited June 12, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[NoTomorrow]

No, it's not that the healer doesn't die 1v1 a dps, (don't forget the dps doesn't die either), it's that a dps won't die when attacked by 2-3 and supported by a healer. That's the problem. This could be rectified by reducing the end of dps and/or increasing the trauma, and perhaps reducing or removing some defensive CDs. Perhaps the easiest and most sensible way would be to reduce the healing received expertise buff on dps. This would let them die more thusly satisfying those that want more "stuff happening", without interfering with pve balance.

 

if you reduce the healing received component of expertise, that goes for all the classes, including healers. Which i support btw. It's what makes cross healing so ridiculously op currently.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Yeah, right. Operative healers are really fine, it's everybody else who's bad. The zillions of topics where people complain about operative healers are merely QQ topics by substandard derps. They should learn to focus one operative healer with 8 people and then he might as well go down, if there's no other operative healer around cross healing him. Who cares about reaching the WZs objectives? The goal is to try killing one single operative with 8 people. Sometimes it even works and then 8 people will feel really great for the rest of the day.

Marry me.

[waterboytkd]

Perhaps the easiest and most sensible way would be to reduce the healing received expertise buff on dps. This would let them die more thusly satisfying those that want more "stuff happening", without interfering with pve balance.

 

This is a good idea. It's a blanket affect that would help with the multi-healer teams (even a group of mercs/commandos can be impossible to take down if they watch each others' backs). The only downside is that operatives and scoundrels would still be the best healing class by a fairly large margin, especially when compared to commandos/mercs.

 

I feel like your other ideas are a little strange. Whereas nerfing dps endurance or defensive buffs would make them die easier, it wouldn't deal with the problem that 1v1, a dps cannot take down an operative/scoundrel. In fact, if dps got weaker, it would become even harder to kill the healers (one dps guarding the healer would be devastating), and healers might even be able to kill the dps while healing through the damage. That would only make the situation worse. And if dps were reduced so much that they could be killed through healers....what's the point of healers? Or really, what's the point of dps? Might as well make a damage-focused tank, or just another healer.

 

As for dps taking down healers, I feel like Sages/Sorcs are at the right place right now. They're pretty hard to kill, especially if the sage/sorc player knows what they're doing. But it can be done, and the time to kill is pretty long without being obscene. Unfortunately, if there's any cross-healing going on, none of the healers are dying. This is why I like the idea about nerfing the healing received on expertise the most of your suggestions.

[Dietra]

Thats because the game doesnt only have healers and dps, it also has tanks, the balance is more delicate. Halers are not tanks. And guess what.. healers become increasingly stronger when they have tanks arround.

 

I know, but the one I quoted was talking about 1 vs 1 ....

 

When there is a tank around healers should be harder to kill in warzones. So don't try to kill them, but keep them occupied and unable to cast their big heals on their team. Warzones are about winning objectives... Right? So if healer can't heal team well, team still dies and have more difficulty winning said objectives.

 

I am sure there are other solutions to the "scoundrels are hard to kill" thing rather than nerf classes again to the point where they are absolete or they change to dps because they die instantly at showing up in a warzone. I stll remember when sages were nerfed that bad. That's when they got that "get some instant health back" button to even it out a bit again...

Edited June 12, 2013 by Dietra

[Cretinus]

I know, but the one I quoted was talking about 1 vs 1 ....

 

When there is a tank around healers should be harder to kill in warzones. So don't try to kill them, but keep them occupied and unable to cast their big heals on their team. Warzones are about winning objectives... Right? So if healer can't heal team well, team still dies and have more difficulty winning said objectives.

 

I am sure there are other solutions to the "scoundrels are hard to kill" thing rather than nerf classes again to the point where they are absolete or they change to dps because they die instantly at showing up in a warzone. I stll remember when sages were nerfed that bad. That's when they got that "get some instant health back" button to even it out a bit again...

 

A node that is being attacked by a tank and a healer requires 6 DPS defenders at least. Unless the defenders have a tank and a healer themselves, but then they'll still need 2-3 DPS in addition, cause otherwise this will be an eternal fight with none dying.

 

Tanks and healers, in particular when sticking together, are game breaking in PvP because they benefit from synergies that only make sense in PvE. They're obviously the backbone of a team in PvE and well played, a tank and a healer should be able to survive nearly everything there. When it comes to PvP, this no longer makes sense. The role and the abilities + stats of tanks and healers need a redesign in order to make sense in PvP.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Cretinus

[ronniehenlau]

As far as I can tell from my experience in both pugs and rated warzones, healers are indeed fine when balanced around rated warzones (8 competent people on both teams). However, in pugs its really, really bad. I've seen this from both the dps side and healer side.

 

If the dps and / or tanks peel and I'm the only dps on a healer, that healer wont die. I can keep him from healing his team, more or less, if there are no tank there to taunt/guard. If there's a guard, the only way that healer will go down is if I have a puller /pusher that can get the tank out of guard range.

 

Same goes for myself, if I get peels then yes, I can lol about with no problems vs 1-2 dps. If I get really pressured by competent dps, then I usually blow up in normals w/o guard. With guard, again, can lol about but still tend to die vs several dps unless the tank is amazing.

 

Thing about balancing is really, should they balance the game around pugs or rateds / premades?

 

Imo, balance should always be around rateds / premades, and not around pugs. With 4 good dps on me in rated, I have no choice but to heal myself, and I die really quick without peels. In nonrated, again, pugs are bad and you can usually just derp about with little to no problems.

[RayonChristie]

Can you remember how long it took them to fix powertechs, smash and stun bubbles? the anwser is too bloody long! ive unsubed because I refuse to play pvp against/with overpowered operative/scoundrel healers, its just not fun.

[szombattams]

Can you remember how long it took them to fix powertechs, smash and stun bubbles? the anwser is too bloody long! ive unsubed because I refuse to play pvp against/with overpowered operative/scoundrel healers, its just not fun.

 

A guy of my heart!!! YOU ARE BLOODY RIGHT!!!

[Astarica]

I don't get why people keep on bring up rated as if it's magically different. No it's still the same but because both team's healers are good and someone has to win, the team with the better overall skill will probably win after a very long stalemate. I say 'probably' because it's entirely possible you lose due to some gimmick, though gimmicks are usually done by Operatives and it's likely both team will have access to them in rated so at least it's fair there. It's basically saying if you smash your head against a wall carefully it doesn't hurt as bad. It's still broken. A 0-0 Voidstar is not decided by just luck, as the better team is the team with more kills, but this is not something you want to do regularly because if you can't take any doors on either side why not just deathmatch instead?

[wwkingms]

9 out of 10 healers in warzones now are Op/Scoundrels

 

but im sure theyre balanced

[NoTomorrow]

They will be brought down. It's just a matter of months, until you will only see 2 operatives in every ranked that bioware will finally consider to actually change about operative/scoundrels.

 

They really did a good job with overpowered bodyguard in 1.2. I hope to see a similar resolution here.

Edited June 14, 2013 by NoTomorrow

[SajPl]

They will be brought down. It's just a matter of months, until you will only see 2 operatives in every ranked that bioware will finally consider to actually change about operative/scoundrels.

 

They really did a good job with overpowered bodyguard in 1.2. I hope to see a similar resolution here.

 

Sure sure. Lethality with basically free and spammable dots ticking on everyone is fine, marksman with everything resetting followthrough, making it essentially a 35 meter pyro back when it was op is fine but healing is bad plz nerf QQ.

[SajPl]

A node that is being attacked by a tank and a healer requires 6 DPS defenders at least. Unless the defenders have a tank and a healer themselves, but then they'll still need 2-3 DPS in addition, cause otherwise this will be an eternal fight with none dying.

 

Tanks and healers, in particular when sticking together, are game breaking in PvP because they benefit from synergies that only make sense in PvE. They're obviously the backbone of a team in PvE and well played, a tank and a healer should be able to survive nearly everything there. When it comes to PvP, this no longer makes sense. The role and the abilities + stats of tanks and healers need a redesign in order to make sense in PvP.

 

1. You must be so bad that you would need 6 people to take down 2. Try to coordinate or improve.

2. When a node is being attacked by tank and healer and there are 2 dps guarding JUST ROTATE YOUR DEATHS.

In short : learn to play guys, your pvp experience will improve, your teammates will be grateful that you are not dragging thm down and then QQing about "healers op NERF".

[NoTomorrow]

Sure sure. Lethality with basically free and spammable dots ticking on everyone is fine, marksman with everything resetting followthrough, making it essentially a 35 meter pyro back when it was op is fine but healing is bad plz nerf QQ.

 

I didn't support the spamable corrosive grenade. But DoTs are not going to kill healers anyway.

MM FT no longer has 6s CD, therefore we lost the 6s cycles of mobile snipe+FT, after the first combo we need to cast either a second snipe or any other ability that can reset it. SoS FT reset often fails either because of LoS before 4th shot or it kills before it and thus not fullly channeled.

[darthmorbous]

I don't care, you know why? Because the nerf thats you want will SCREW PVE. Stop messing with PVE because you pvpers are whinining about something.

 

This is typical behavior from wuuuzz PvE´rs "stop it! stop it, dont kill me , wuaaaaa"

then they mess in PvP forums to whine moar "stop talking about this thing that makes me so afraid ill not be able to kill that boss i´ve killed 300 times before as fast and EASY as last 300 times !"

 

god i HATE PvErs (this specific kind)

[Aerilas]

Couldn't be bothered to read through all this ****.

 

What I do want to say is operatives/scoundrels IN GENERAL aren't OP.

Most players absolutely suck and don't know how to play the class. Only when you meet extraordinary players can it seem OP.

[otisjerek]

I mostly play a scoundrel sawbones and I personally think they were more enjoyable to play pre-2.0, quite simply because it was more challenging. Much of this challenge was created by energy management and the somewhat 'clunky' system of using pugnacity. However, I fully understand why pugnacity was changed, while fine for healers, it was a right pain for DPS scoundrels. Other than changes introduced by alacrity (which most classes can benefit from), the actual energy management system itself doesn't give us any more energy than we had before. (NB, Upperhand can now be procced from a wider range of heals, but the 6s internal CD means I don't really get it anymore regularly than before 2.0).

 

I think much of the problem comes from Slow-release medpack. As it is now, they are probably a bit too cheap and heal for slightly too much. My own parses show that slow-release is responsible for a huge amount of my healing, but just like a DoT, much of it is 'fluff' healing. While all healing is good, 2 stacks of slow release criting for maybe 2.3k every 3 seconds doesn't actually keep anyone alive (unless they're receiving other heals), but cast on a lot of people it produces some very nice looking overall heals and HPS. (It should also be noted that sages and commandos can give very small damage reduction bonuses to their targets, which I don't think are recorded on the scoreboard. This would only account for a very small discrepancy in HPS though).

 

The change to slow-release probably happened because it's regularly needed on a target in conjunction with other heals to keep them alive. We've basically become a HoT healer. This might make some people laugh, but our main 2s heal probably has the weakest base heal of all the 'big cast heals'. If it crits with the surge bonus it can almost reach the crit of sage's deliverance. However, crit rating is much lower now and the base heal of underworld medicine is only 3.5-4.5k in combat. Kolto pack is essentially a HoT now too, it's up front heal is tiny. We therefore rely on this combination of HoTs to keep people up. These HoTs, like DoTs produce a lot over time and a substantial amount of sustained healing, but if I were in trouble, I'd still rather have a bubble + healing trance put on me

 

It is true we can go some time without casting if under pressure, although this is generally only the case if there is a second healer around. I think there is some misconception about the strength of Emergency medpack. Yes, it can be spammed under 30%, but unless the target is a tank or using defensive CDs, even with slow-release on them there is a good chance they're going down. A non crit 2kish heal every 1.5s does not keep someone alive. I see it as buying time for their attacker to switch to someone else or a second healer to get off a proper cast heal. If the target or myself are under such focus I'm having to spam EM, then I'm not able to refresh HoTs etc on anyone else.

 

I don't think EM could be changed as it's become more important than ever. Formerly Kolto Pack was our most effective emergency heal (and most cost effective- although it was under used), but turning it into a more expensive HoT with a 9s CD meant that EM has had to completely take it's place. I'm not especially a fan of this change, but KP does have a more clearly defined role as a result.

 

Kolto Cloud is okay at the moment. In comparison to the possibility of instant salvations and the small improvement to commando's heal (which can be used twice as often) it's about right. The removal of the 15%+ set bonus and gain of +9% in the tree means it is now 6% less intense per tick than it was before 2.0, although in the move towards a HoT class it heals over a longer duration with a higher total than it did before.

 

I believe most of the issues from scoundrel healing comes from their ability to survive. We can indeed heal while running, but most of this is confined to fluffy HoT healing (excluding KC) and the fairly weak EM. When dpsing I know this all too well! If you keep the pressure up they will go down, but I'm not sure what the answer is. Scoundrels have always been very tough to take down and this was certainly the case before 2.0. I don't especially feel any more survivable than I was before 2.0, but maybe I've just forgotten. I know I'd be dead a lot more often if I couldn't stealth. Perhaps the changes to tanking have simply compounded the issue and the unnecessary roll for healers can't help.

 

If slow release were to be made weaker and more expensive, as before, I think it would solve a lot of the high healing issues seen and make energy management more interesting (no other heal was changed in price, other than the increase of KP, so I assume this is the main culprit for excess energy). In a single target situation scoundrel feels a bit weaker than it was without the old style Kolto Pack giving a lot of burst. Of course, in combination with roll and scoundrels defensive CDs this makes them very robust themselves and I'm not sure how this could be fixed - it seems to me they've been very hard to take down well before 2.0 too.

 

I'm not necessarily trying to defend the scoundrel healer (as I said, I preferred it how it was, although like any sawbones I wouldn't want it badly nerfed!), these are just my thoughts on why sawbones is in the situation it currently is.

Edited June 14, 2013 by otisjerek