Communication? Wasn't this supposed to be a priority?

[stephenalandavie]

see? this is a valid point!

 

pvp isnt mention no where on the known bug list and there are alot of issues that runs in pvp.

 

Thats a good point, no pvp section in the known issues. Just goes to show Pvp is about as high on the list as a good case of syphilis is for me.

[ML_DoubleTap]

I would like to add one more thing that I think is very telling.

 

Eric or community managers, please go to this thread.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=403398

 

This is your known issues list.

 

There is no pvp section, you are telling us there are no known issues with pvp bugs / issues that need to be addressed.

 

Now look at Cartel market / collections / raiding etc. You can see how this is confusing.

 

I would love to see the known issues list actually be updated when you guys have acknowledged a thread on the pvp forums and determined something is a bug, it would also be cool to see when fixes were slated for even if there is a section designated TBD that may contain some of the tougher bugs.

 

No communication on the bug/sploit being used , no communication you are aware of the known issue, no communication on what is being done to address it is not acceptable.

 

I think the reason most of those items don't show up is that they fall under the exploit category and exploits aren't called out there...for obvious reasons

[Joesixxpack]

I think the reason most of those items don't show up is that they fall under the exploit category and exploits aren't called out there...for obvious reasons

 

There're more than a few non-exploit issues too.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Joesixxpack

[shednik]

I would like to add one more thing that I think is very telling.

 

Eric or community managers, please go to this thread.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=403398

 

This is your known issues list.

 

There is no pvp section, you are telling us there are no known issues with pvp bugs / issues that need to be addressed.

 

Now look at Cartel market / collections / raiding etc. You can see how this is confusing.

 

I would love to see the known issues list actually be updated when you guys have acknowledged a thread on the pvp forums and determined something is a bug, it would also be cool to see when fixes were slated for even if there is a section designated TBD that may contain some of the tougher bugs.

 

No communication on the bug/sploit being used , no communication you are aware of the known issue, no communication on what is being done to address it is not acceptable.

 

Yoda is spot on right here, this here is why we the pvp community feel we are getting shafted compared to other aspects of the game.

 

The issues we report that affect us as pvpers don't even make it on the bug tracker thread. It's easier getting a response from a bug tracker for a community based open source application that it is for a game I pay for monthly. There's something wrong there.

Edited June 5, 2013 by shednik

[Kilora]

I would like to add one more thing that I think is very telling.

 

Eric or community managers, please go to this thread.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=403398

 

This is your known issues list.

 

There is no pvp section, you are telling us there are no known issues with pvp bugs / issues that need to be addressed.

 

Now look at Cartel market / collections / raiding etc. You can see how this is confusing.

 

I would love to see the known issues list actually be updated when you guys have acknowledged a thread on the pvp forums and determined something is a bug, it would also be cool to see when fixes were slated for even if there is a section designated TBD that may contain some of the tougher bugs.

 

No communication on the bug/sploit being used , no communication you are aware of the known issue, no communication on what is being done to address it is not acceptable.

 

I agree -- only thing I have to add:

 

In my eyes, from how it was explained by the Community Team, thee "Known Issues" thread is supposed to be solely for issues they've had reported, have pinned down completely, and are actively fixing.

 

That is an obvious flaw, if actually intended to work that way it should be an "In-progress Fixes" thread. But I've seen many bugs fixed that don't show up on Known Issues, and aren't exploits in any way.

 

No way would they ever post every single bug -- but, they should be a little more open with acknowleding them. Maybe have an actual "Known Issues" thread, of solely issues they are actively investigating and attempting to fix -- and then a "Planned Fixes" thread, for ones they are actively fixing, and will release soon.

[shednik]

I think the reason most of those items don't show up is that they fall under the exploit category and exploits aren't called out there...for obvious reasons

 

So the corner cap issue is an exploit? /stuck? miss-firing GCD? Crafted Purple Level 54 Items better than Conqueror gear after bolster?

 

I wouldn't consider any of those an exploit more so issues with the current game that are being allowed. While the crafted gear we are told is being looked into, the others have been around for awhile especially /stuck and the GCD issues.

[EricMusco]

I read through the entire thread and I think there are a few things I can address, and some I can make sure we work on specifically.

 

Known Issues As some have already indicated this is largely due to the fact that most PvP issues which are present, are exploits. This means we will not place them on the known issues list.

 

Acknowledgment of bugs This is a tricky thing, and it is something I mentioned in my last post. As I said before, the general rule is that if a bug exists, we are almost definitely aware of it even if one of us doesn't appear in a thread to say "we are aware of it." I try to only post something like that for bugs that have a lot of visibility, otherwise we would have a devtracker full of "we are aware of it."

 

Bugs! One other thing I would recommend for bugs of any kind, which would certainly include PvP, is that you post about them in the bug report forum. Amber is always looking through our forums, but especially that forum, to round up any and all bug related issues. Again, you will not always get responded to, but we see them.

 

Like I said before, I will take what you guys are saying and try to make sure you feel you are being communicated with more. We wont post in every thread acknowledging every PvP bug. We won't release information about future content until we are comfortable with what we are saying (and realize that us talking about content at all, 3 Game Updates from now, is far beyond anything we did before). With that being said, I will do my best to acknowledge more bugs and to share information as I have it. Specifically, I will try to work even more with the PvP and Combat team to explain some of our decisions whenever possible.

 

-eric

 

PS - Bruce did this one on his own, but working to get broader things addressed like this as well.

[Yodawizard]

Thanks Eric, all we can ask is you try.

 

But just to say all pvp bugs are exploits is a cop-out. Corner capping in novare is an exploit of a BUG, the bug is that people are clipping through the wall, the exploit is people using the bug to gain an advantage. /stuck is a bit more grey area as it isn't really a bug that it kills you in combat as that apparently is intended.

 

But please do not tell me there are no "bugs" in pvp, and that is why they aren't on the known issue list. That is just downright insulting.

[islander]

Eric, communication has been massively improved since you stepped up to the plate. Thank you.

 

So much this. Many of us think you're doing a great job Eric.

[cycao]

Now this is a thread worthy of posting in.

[Pscyon]

Acknowledgment of bugs This is a tricky thing, and it is something I mentioned in my last post. As I said before, the general rule is that if a bug exists, we are almost definitely aware of it even if one of us doesn't appear in a thread to say "we are aware of it." I try to only post something like that for bugs that have a lot of visibility, otherwise we would have a devtracker full of "we are aware of it."

 

Sorry, I don't believe you on this. There's very obvious bugs that have been in the game since launch you've yet to acknowledge and several introduced in content patches too (fix the damn clipping hood issue from 1.2 allready ), or do you mean to say there are bugs you're aware of that you just choose to not fix?

Edited June 5, 2013 by Pscyon

[Jherad]

I read through the entire thread and I think there are a few things I can address, and some I can make sure we work on specifically.

 

Known Issues As some have already indicated this is largely due to the fact that most PvP issues which are present, are exploits. This means we will not place them on the known issues list.

 

Acknowledgment of bugs This is a tricky thing, and it is something I mentioned in my last post. As I said before, the general rule is that if a bug exists, we are almost definitely aware of it even if one of us doesn't appear in a thread to say "we are aware of it." I try to only post something like that for bugs that have a lot of visibility, otherwise we would have a devtracker full of "we are aware of it."

 

Bugs! One other thing I would recommend for bugs of any kind, which would certainly include PvP, is that you post about them in the bug report forum. Amber is always looking through our forums, but especially that forum, to round up any and all bug related issues. Again, you will not always get responded to, but we see them.

 

Like I said before, I will take what you guys are saying and try to make sure you feel you are being communicated with more. We wont post in every thread acknowledging every PvP bug. We won't release information about future content until we are comfortable with what we are saying (and realize that us talking about content at all, 3 Game Updates from now, is far beyond anything we did before). With that being said, I will do my best to acknowledge more bugs and to share information as I have it. Specifically, I will try to work even more with the PvP and Combat team to explain some of our decisions whenever possible.

 

-eric

 

PS - Bruce did this one on his own, but working to get broader things addressed like this as well.

 

Thanks for getting back to us on this. However -

 

Nobody is asking you to reply to each and every thread, and though you may say you are aware of bugs even when you don't tell us, the fact that often critical problems aren't touched for weeks or months until the community is in uproar tells a different story.

 

Just one post, in one thread, like you did yesterday telling us you'd seen the newest bolster issue, goes a long way. Except, you know, SOONER rather than days later.

 

+ all the previous stuff about needing more info on longstanding bug resolution.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Jherad

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

realize that us talking about content at all, 3 Game Updates from now, is far beyond anything we did before

 

QFT. Communication has been getting better. It's been a slow process like most other things in the game, but it is improving and I thank Eric and the other community team members for that.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Arlon_Nabarlly

[Logisitcs]

Acknowledgment of bugs This is a tricky thing, and it is something I mentioned in my last post. As I said before, the general rule is that if a bug exists, we are almost definitely aware of it even if one of us doesn't appear in a thread to say "we are aware of it." I try to only post something like that for bugs that have a lot of visibility, otherwise we would have a devtracker full of "we are aware of it."

 

 

 

Hi! Since 2.0 not ONE WORD has been said on Ability Delay!

 

Hello?!

Edited June 5, 2013 by Logisitcs

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Sorry, I don't believe you on this. There's very obvious bugs that have been in the game since launch you've yet to acknowledge and several introduced in content patches too (fix the damn clipping hood issue from 1.2 allready ), or do you mean to say there are bugs you're aware of that you just choose to not fix?

 

I'm sure there are a lot of longtime bugs that they are aware of and either:

A. Haven't identified a fix yet.

B. Fix is rather difficult but is in development

C. Issue is considered a low priority and is on a list of low priority bugs to get to.

[MiaRB]

Thanks Eric, all we can ask is you try.

 

But just to say all pvp bugs are exploits is a cop-out. Corner capping in novare is an exploit of a BUG, the bug is that people are clipping through the wall, the exploit is people using the bug to gain an advantage. /stuck is a bit more grey area as it isn't really a bug that it kills you in combat as that apparently is intended.

 

But please do not tell me there are no "bugs" in pvp, and that is why they aren't on the known issue list. That is just downright insulting.

 

you should reread what he said. he didn't say, "there are no bugs in PVP". he said they don't put a lot of PVP bugs in known issues list because people will exploit the bugs.

[Joesixxpack]

 

*Yellow words*

 

Known Issues As some have already indicated this is largely due to the fact that most PvP issues which are present, are exploits. This means we will not place them on the known issues list.

 

Acknowledgment of bugs This is a tricky thing, and it is something I mentioned in my last post. As I said before, the general rule is that if a bug exists, we are almost definitely aware of it even if one of us doesn't appear in a thread to say "we are aware of it." I try to only post something like that for bugs that have a lot of visibility, otherwise we would have a devtracker full of "we are aware of it."

 

Bugs! Again, you will not always get responded to, but we see them.

 

*Thoughtful stuff*

-eric

 

 

Gotta point out that the bug report system doesn't inspire confidence or seem adequate. I understand stuff won't always get a response, makes sense. Also that it's force fed a heavy diet of dumb and ignorance by the community.

 

But when objectively important things are reported, not responded to, and remain in the game up to indefinitely, and this pattern seems more normal than not, would you guys be satisfied with it if you were customer-side? Of course priorities clash, but cricket chirps for issues that you guys surely can recognize as needing attention aren't cool.

[Pistols]

This might be a dangerous thread to poke my head into, but I figure it warrants a response if I can give it! One of the things that I certainly see on occasion and have to deal with is a perceived lack of communication. Something that is always very hard to manage as a Community Team is making sure that everyone feels like they are being spoken to on the things they care about most. You would be surprised just how difficult this can be. Not because communication itself is difficult to do, but because every single player has something different they care about. To add to that issue, sometimes we just simply don’t have anything to say! I think we can all agree a forum full of “I have no information but will get you more soon” would not be a place you want to be a part of. Whenever possible, I try to make sure we have real information every time we post.

 

I supposes me choosing the word "communication" has a farther reach than just the perceived notion of "gold posts"; some of course look to measure "communication" by how many gold posts they see, I however do not. I look at the substance of said gold posts. I have said countless times since you took over that I think you do a terrific job with the community, poking your head here and there, and by far having a great sense of humor and an abundance of patience with many...especially types like myself. For that, I do appreciate what you do, and most of this thread isn't really about the CM team or you at all (directly anyways).

 

To talk about PvP specifically, I know this is a very contentious topic and one that players will always be hungry for information about. Certainly just like every other part of the game, there will be bugs that need to be addressed, and we can deal with those as they pop up. What makes it extra tricky, is that there are also issues that pop up tied to PvP that aren’t actually problems, but perceived problems. An example being claims of speedhacking due to a player not understanding all class abilities, etc. The same can be true in some situations for class balance. Often times at Cantina Tours we ask what the most overpowered class in our game is, you would be amused to know that people guess almost every single Advanced Class.

 

As you know, I'm quite active (maybe a little too much, my job is fantastic, what can I say!) on these forums, and I tend to stick my nose in just about every sub-forum catagory around here. That being said, I tend to frequent the Bug forum often, as well as the General forum, looking for said "bug issues" people tend to run into. I totally understand the misconception many have when reporting issues, that are in fact, working as intended. Holy cow we have tons of that in the PvP forums, and it's beyond facepalm to read some of it. Although on the speedhacking bit, it wasn't too long ago when Ginger-bread-man (won't call his real toon name out) made a mockery of said hack, Youtubes all over, screenshots, etc that went on for nearly 2 months...it took forever for that to be resolved, and was pretty sad.

 

We are always going to work to communicate as often and transparent as we can, PvP included. I remember well what it is like to not work inside of these walls, the truth is that players want to know everything they can, and I don’t blame them one bit. Hell, I work here and I do my best to learn as much about our future plans as possible! The problem is, we will never be able to say absolutely everything, so it is all about telling you guys as much as we can, as often as we can. I have tried to make sure PvP issues are being addressed as much as possible in yellow posts and I wanted to point some of them out just in case they haven’t been seen, especially since I saw some of them mentioned in this very thread:

 

• When are we getting more PvP content? Although it isn’t specific on what , you can expect good things in Game Update 2.4.
  
• Why don’t you acknowledge /stuck? Alex did that very thing, we are definitely aware and are looking at solutions!
  
• Bolster bugs. We know there are still issues, I commented on one this morning and we are working with combat to make them aware of any and all issues we see on the forums (even if we don’t post that in every thread)
  
• Listening to PvP feedback. Based entirely on player feedback we pulled the CC break reset on death from 2.2.
  

 

Yes, we've been told the team is "working on PvP" for quite some time now Eric. You do realize in 3 weeks, Pre-Season will be hitting the ONE YEAR ANNIV mark...right? Yes, we know alllll too well about the team "working on PvP", yet we have no idea what their focus is (see CC break issue below). Yes, Alex mentions the /stuck issue in the game that's been around for nearly forever and don't get me wrong, I'm glad someone finally brought it up after all this time. Saw your post on the Bolster dealy, but I'm assuming that was due to this thread, but thank you for passing the info. on, although I don't think it should be you addressing this disastrous topic at all but more on that later. The CC break issue was a good thing, but I was really dismayed that we had to raise the thunder of Thor, to get the team to know how exploitable that idea was. To me, the /stuck abuse isn't something new, and to be told "we'll keep an eye out" is a slap in the face to all those who left the game that reported it as well. Was that supposed to be Metrics guys job to do, lol? Either way, it was reversed, which I think is a great move and saved a lot of PvP frustrations, even if so many didn't understand it (amazes me how many don't get PvP mechancis but I digress). Now if they can build on that with reverting the CC changes from 1.4, a lot of their CC "lock" issues will begin to waver.

 

I realize that our communication around PvP may not always be as much or as frequent as you want but I assure you that we are always trying to find places to get developer responses or to pass things back on to the team. As always, I will make it a point to try to push up our yellow responses to questions and concerns around PvP. You are certainly not being ignored. As a general rule always remember, just because we don’t respond in every single thread we are definitely reading! -eric

 

I do appreciate the reminder, and I think most of the PvP crowd tries to believe this. I honestly couldn't tell you the direction PvP is supposed to be heading towards...I really can't. Most of us have no idea if the latest bolster "bug find" has made it to the Devs ears...and looking back at the /stuck issue...which was never acknowledged until 2013, how do we know your team is aware? Bolster is a gigantic failure, and the failure is not what the system is supposed to do, the failure comes at the implementation. The team literally threw this out there, and used the Live servers as the PTS, which is a BS move and completely unfair to the PvP base. How many times have we been told "we're fixing bolster with this patch"? PvP gear getting trumped by crafted items sucks, period. 2 Months of bolster, with little to no communication or confirmation gives me little hope the team knows what they're doing, I'm guessing at this point, EA might need to just outsource to get this fixed. The PvP'ers want the Dev team to come out and explain this, because they think they're owed this, and I totally agree. It's not something little, and it's turning players off.

 

We need substance Eric from the team and PvP; we've gone through many iterations of changes, suffered many regrinds with bad development, and just want some idea what the team is doing. I think Bolster is a great idea, when it actually starts to work as intended. YodaWizard hit on a lot of what I wanted to say, would just be nice to see issues discussed, but I really think the "team" needs to write up something on what they're doing with Bolster, how long it may take, what to expect, etc....right now I couldn't tell you anything, other than reciting so many posts from them "Bolster will be fixed this patch"...when it never is. Thanks Eric, but a lot of my rants on communication, actually are focused towards the PvP team...they've failed this PvP community too many times to not be called out...and I think they owe it to many to address us. It's not about entitlement, it's about communicating with substance.

 

Yours truly,

 

Annoying Forum User

 

Edited June 5, 2013 by Pistols

[Yodawizard]

you should reread what he said. he didn't say, "there are no bugs in PVP". he said they don't put a lot of PVP bugs in known issues list because people will exploit the bugs.

 

Fair enough, I may have missed that intention. But tell me why GCD misfires are not on the list? I don't believe that to be exploitable.

[Ottoattack]

As a starter, I thank you Eric for responding on such a touchy issue. Quite frankly, I do not think the problem is that BW does not respond, is that BW do not address the issues.

 

I can give numerous examples, reaven robes color not matching, black talon, foundry and essles d/c, hutt ball warriors/knights glitching after a force jump, etc... These bugs have been know for almost a year, and even the dev acknowledged their presence, yet, they still do exist in the game. Communicating that you acknowledge an issue or bug is not sufficient, because the lack of action to fix the issue/bug renders the communication pointless, and thus for a big part the community precive that you either do not respond or do not care (not saying that you do not).

 

Action is needed to validate that the player is heard. Without action to address the players concerns, the communication, regardless of how good is it, is precived as non-existent or useless by the community.

[Sir-Coffee]

I read through the entire thread and I think there are a few things I can address, and some I can make sure we work on specifically.

 

Known Issues As some have already indicated this is largely due to the fact that most PvP issues which are present, are exploits. This means we will not place them on the known issues list.

Known issues: Revan's armor

Acknowledgment of bugs This is a tricky thing, and it is something I mentioned in my last post. As I said before, the general rule is that if a bug exists, we are almost definitely aware of it even if one of us doesn't appear in a thread to say "we are aware of it." I try to only post something like that for bugs that have a lot of visibility, otherwise we would have a devtracker full of "we are aware of it."

Acknowledgment of bugs: Your post which needs clarification about Revan's armor

Bugs! One other thing I would recommend for bugs of any kind, which would certainly include PvP, is that you post about them in the bug report forum. Amber is always looking through our forums, but especially that forum, to round up any and all bug related issues. Again, you will not always get responded to, but we see them.

Bugs - Revan's armor

Like I said before, I will take what you guys are saying and try to make sure you feel you are being communicated with more. We wont post in every thread acknowledging every PvP bug. We won't release information about future content until we are comfortable with what we are saying (and realize that us talking about content at all, 3 Game Updates from now, is far beyond anything we did before). With that being said, I will do my best to acknowledge more bugs and to share information as I have it. Specifically, I will try to work even more with the PvP and Combat team to explain some of our decisions whenever possible.

 

-eric

 

PS - Bruce did this one on his own, but working to get broader things addressed like this as well.

 

Communicate to us about Revan's armor in 2.2.

[Icebergy]

Communicate to us about Revan's armor in 2.2.

 

Ignore this guy, communicate to us about stuff more important.

[Icebergy]

Thanks for getting back to us on this. However -

 

Nobody is asking you to reply to each and every thread, and though you may say you are aware of bugs even when you don't tell us, the fact that often critical problems aren't touched for weeks or months until the community is in uproar tells a different story.

 

Just one post, in one thread, like you did yesterday telling us you'd seen the newest bolster issue, goes a long way. Except, you know, SOONER rather than days later.

 

+ all the previous stuff about needing more info on longstanding bug resolution.

 

Reread your own post. This is exactly what you are asking for...Or at least, you are asking for them to always respond to stuff that you personally care about.

[Sir-Coffee]

Ignore this guy, communicate to us about stuff more important.

 

More important? This game is based off of KOTOR.

 

Do you know who the main character of KOTOR is? I'll give you a hint:

 

The response would only take 5 minutes out of his day, and people paid RL money for that armor.

[Nothematic]

More important? This game is based off of KOTOR.

 

Do you know who the main character of KOTOR is? I'll give you a hint:

 

The response would only take 5 minutes out of his day, and people paid RL money for that armor.

 

This game isn't based off KOTOR. Get it out of your head that this is supposed to be KOTOR 3. Yes, there are characters and elements of KOTOR in the game, but it isn't BASED on KOTOR.