Making Kolto Missile a core ability - why?

[Qaoz]

Anyone know why they did this? Is there an official comment on the matter somewhere that I haven't found? Don't get me wrong, I love that they turned Kolto Missile into a core ability, but I'm not sure I understand the reason behind it.

 

If I had to make a guess, I'd say it had something to do with Sorcerers not having a cooldown on their short cast heal as well as having access to the bubble. DPS Sorcerers essentially get three heals - two reactive and one proactive. That would make perfect sense, if it wasn't for the Operative. Like the Mercenary, the Operative also has a cooldown on the short cast heal, but they didn't get their T3 heal as a core ability. Operatives are still limited to a 2.5-second cast and a 2-second cast on a 9-second cooldown.

 

Just curious why Mercs got a third heal as baseline when Operatives are still limited to two. Anyone know?

[Jayshames]

I believe it's due to all the complaining about Commando/Merc DPS dying so easily in PvP etc.

[Qaoz]

Ah, that sounds like something they'd do, yeah.

[revial]

Well, if you're not heal specced, KM heals for ~5% of your total hps. Not sure wasting a GCD on a 5% heal will ever be a make or break ability when trying to survive in pvp. But, maybe I'm just a cynic.

[Didjeridoo]

**Disclaimer** My merc is only level 24 so I'm not an expert.

 

2.0 merc/mando buffs focused on their mobility, which is clear. But it seems people are still displeased with no change to their "turret" style DPS. I suggest we compare mercs/mandos to juggs/guardians:

 

Mercs/Mandos have heavy armor, damage mitigation, gap openers, CC, minor heals, cast times and range.

Juggs/Guardians have heavy armor, damage mitigation, gap closers, CC, and instant abilities.

 

It's give and take people. Mercs/Mandos have 30m range while melee MUST stay on target. I think the mobility buffs were fantastic additions to the class, and giving kolto missile (an instant cast perfect to use while running away) is more valuable than some people are able to see. And 6 seconds every 20 seconds of unimpeded movement is yet another gap opener. That's a ton of free movement time that people seem not to care about. I wish my Guardian main had that! We don't have anything like it.

 

I'm not saying Mercs/Mandos are perfect, but they require a very different play style which takes time to master. They're also least favored for RWZs because of their need to "turret" to make a difference still. I don't know what to do about that, maybe make Unload a moveable channel or Tracer Missle instant. But it still stands that they are a completely different play style that requires intelligent decisions and practice.

[Mordeguy]

I'm not saying Mercs/Mandos are perfect, but they require a very different play style which takes time to master. They're also least favored for RWZs because of their need to "turret" to make a difference still. I don't know what to do about that, maybe make Unload a moveable channel or Tracer Missle instant. But it still stands that they are a completely different play style that requires intelligent decisions and practice.

 

The issue is that they don't really have the needed defenses to turret. Their only way to deal with this is to run away but that's not ideal for them when wanting to deal damage. Unlike a sniper that can truly play turret. Heals don't make up for stun and leap immunities. I've often thought moveable unload is a good idea but would take the class to overpowered levels without a restriction, like once every 15-20 seconds for moveable unloads. Instant tracer would be a baaaaaad idea. It would become this game's ice lance spam.

 

2.0 has helped a lot, and electro-net is arguably THE single best pvp skill in the game but merc is still much more reliable on a good team than other classes. They need some sort of anti-leap or an escape that allows them not to be such easy targets.

 

What I think would help is a ground targeted leap of sorts (using the jetpack or boots for animation). It doesn't need to be super far, about 15-20m on a 30-45 second cooldown. The reason for this is it would finally give them a way to quickly achieve LoS breaks as well as add distance between them and melee when a knockback/stun isnt going to work. I think a skill like this is what both dps and healer mercs/mandos need. It would be sort of like force speed for them on a longer timer in terms of escaping.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Mordeguy

[Macroeconomics]

Well, if you're not heal specced, KM heals for ~5% of your total hps. Not sure wasting a GCD on a 5% heal will ever be a make or break ability when trying to survive in pvp.

 

You certainly should not be using KM when it is make or break time. But you should be using KM steadily BEFORE then. But to get the full leverage from KM, you need to use it when it benefits both you and your teammates. Look for the healer on your team. Setup around 10 meters from him. Then drop the KM in between the two of you while moving towards him. Now KM is doing about 4k of output (assuming neither heal crits) - well worth being in your rotation.

 

Overall in a lengthy non-Huttball match, healing should comprise about 15-20% of your output. It's a good filler ability to use and will let you cut back on the amount of casting you engage in.

 

2.0 has helped a lot, and electro-net is arguably THE single best pvp skill in the game but merc is still much more reliable on a good team than other classes. They need some sort of anti-leap or an escape that allows them not to be such easy targets.

 

C'mon, get real. It's not even the best pvp skill for Merc dps. HSM is. It's not even the best defensive skill for Merc dps. HO is.

[Nightkin]

 

Overall in a lengthy non-Huttball match, healing should comprise about 15-20% of your output. It's a good filler ability to use and will let you cut back on the amount of casting you engage in.

 

 

 

.

This guy knows what he´s talking about, adapt to a more fluid DPS/offheal role while you are in Arsenal spec and you will benefit your team a lot more then if you did another 150k damage.

[Mordeguy]

C'mon, get real. It's not even the best pvp skill for Merc dps. HSM is. It's not even the best defensive skill for Merc dps. HO is.

 

That's a very simple way of looking at things. In an organized setting using the net at the right time is doom for the focus target of your choice unless the other team goes all out protecting them. It's a skill worthy of deciding a node battle. If you're only thinking of it as a way to peel a melee or to fluff your damage then you're not making the best use of it.

[Nightkin]

Again something i agree with 100%, people rarely die in ranked games and usually when they do die, its because of E-Net and focus fire. In normals though, make the best use of it as you can. But its a killer for ranked.

[Flintfire]

Sometimes when a bunch of your team is banged up or you need a quick heal, kolto missile is there for you.

[dcgregorya]

Don't get me wrong, I love that they turned Kolto Missile into a core ability...

 

Then stop asking questions.

 

/Thread

[DarthBloodloss]

Its because its an instant-cast ability. They gave us Hydraulic Overrides to escape with, and Kolto Missile to use while on the move.

[Macroeconomics]

That's a very simple way of looking at things. In an organized setting using the net at the right time is doom for the focus target of your choice unless the other team goes all out protecting them. It's a skill worthy of deciding a node battle.

 

HSM kills many enemies each match for me. EN does not. HO saves my life a dozen times a match. EN does not. It's a mystery to me why you guys think EN is better than HSM or HO.

 

Nor does EN result in an auto kill on an enemy target. Healers, tanks and dps can absorb an EN, continue moving while you are dpsing them and they will be fine as long as they had defensive CDs available. The only time EN assures a kill is if: 1) the enemy is already at low health, and 2) enemy does not have a cc breaker available, and 3) enemy does not have healing support, and 4) he doesn't have his stuns and mezzes available and 5) you can continue to dps him. And if 1-5 apply, most of the time you are going to kill him anyway. Personally I would totally rather have an ability that let me shoot HSM twice in a row.

[Mordeguy]

HSM kills many enemies each match for me. EN does not. HO saves my life a dozen times a match. EN does not. It's a mystery to me why you guys think EN is better than HSM or HO.

 

Nor does EN result in an auto kill on an enemy target. Healers, tanks and dps can absorb an EN, continue moving while you are dpsing them and they will be fine as long as they had defensive CDs available. The only time EN assures a kill is if: 1) the enemy is already at low health, and 2) enemy does not have a cc breaker available, and 3) enemy does not have healing support, and 4) he doesn't have his stuns and mezzes available and 5) you can continue to dps him. And if 1-5 apply, most of the time you are going to kill him anyway. Personally I would totally rather have an ability that let me shoot HSM twice in a row.

 

Again, the key is using the net at the right time in an ORGANIZED match. It's not about which skill you get the most kills with or which skill lets you hide and heal up the most. It's all about pressure, after you cause a healer to use their break and/or defensives you wait for that moment to net them. When that happens they have no way of escaping and that's when your dps focus them down with burst. It's not easy to protect a healer that can do nothing but attempt to stand there healing when multiple dps all focus and interrupt them.

 

It's not about using net at random on someone that's just going to ride it out. HSM is your best damage skill and HO is a great butt saver but neither have the impact of a well placed net on a node battle in an organized match. Surviving focus in this game is about breaking line of sight, trying to face tank against a focus fire just gets you killed. Electro net forces that situation for them.

 

Personal glory and the numbers that come with it mean nothing when you have two teams of equal strength battling over a node. That's when strategy and team play matter most and right now it's hard to think of a single skill that has a bigger impact than electro net right now regard.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Mordeguy

[Didjeridoo]

The issue is that they don't really have the needed defenses to turret. Their only way to deal with this is to run away but that's not ideal for them when wanting to deal damage. Unlike a sniper that can truly play turret. Heals don't make up for stun and leap immunities. I've often thought moveable unload is a good idea but would take the class to overpowered levels without a restriction, like once every 15-20 seconds for moveable unloads. Instant tracer would be a baaaaaad idea. It would become this game's ice lance spam.

 

2.0 has helped a lot, and electro-net is arguably THE single best pvp skill in the game but merc is still much more reliable on a good team than other classes. They need some sort of anti-leap or an escape that allows them not to be such easy targets.

 

What I think would help is a ground targeted leap of sorts (using the jetpack or boots for animation). It doesn't need to be super far, about 15-20m on a 30-45 second cooldown. The reason for this is it would finally give them a way to quickly achieve LoS breaks as well as add distance between them and melee when a knockback/stun isnt going to work. I think a skill like this is what both dps and healer mercs/mandos need. It would be sort of like force speed for them on a longer timer in terms of escaping.

 

This is a very good point and one I had not thought of. Snipers are turrets, but they have cover, roll, and entrench amongst other defensive abilities that make them very good semi-moveable turrets. But being as they are different AC and Mercs have other abilities as trade off, it seems any additional abilities would be unfavorable.

 

Maybe add the bonus of being uninterrupted to a defensive cooldown. Or granting them stacks (like a marauder when they attack) when they are dealt direct damage which could proc a passive ability, something like "Really Pissed Off", that makes them uninterruptable for a few seconds.

[Qaoz]

Then stop asking questions.

 

/Thread

 

Yes, let's promote ignorance.

 

Do you not know what a forum is or how it works?

[Macroeconomics]

the key is using the net at the right time in an ORGANIZED match...after you cause a healer to use their break and/or defensives you wait for that moment to net them. When that happens they have no way of escaping and that's when your dps focus them down with burst. It's not easy to protect a healer that can do nothing but attempt to stand there healing when multiple dps all focus and interrupt them.

 

I agree that this is a logical time to use EN - if you are going to use it on that target. However, you are mistaken if you think that using EN on such a target will automatically result in a kill. Against a high skill team, it won't. Guard, intercede, taunt, cross heal from second healer and guess what? Your 4 dps just wasted 9 seconds of output while during that 9 seconds, the other team probably picked off one of your dps.

 

In high skill pvp, the defense is so favored over the offense, that your dps MUST locate and burst on targets that do not have guard, do not have defensive CDs up AND do it while they (your dps) are not taunted. Anything else and you are just spinning your wheels. Using EN against a high profile enemy healer rarely meets those conditions. Consequently using EN in such a manner is often a waste, and if you reinforce that failure by having other dps also attack that target, you are increasing your lost dps.

 

And so while using EN to ensure a kill against an isolated enemy dps might seem like a waste, against a good ranked pvp team - it is often the most value you are going to get from that ability. It's just the way the game is constructed right now. To give you an example, you can push an enemy op healer into the acid pits in Huttball, immediately EN them, and they can walk out of the acid pit while you continue to dps them and they will be barely affected. It's just not that powerful.

[Mordeguy]

I agree that this is a logical time to use EN - if you are going to use it on that target. However, you are mistaken if you think that using EN on such a target will automatically result in a kill. Against a high skill team, it won't. Guard, intercede, taunt, cross heal from second healer and guess what? Your 4 dps just wasted 9 seconds of output while during that 9 seconds, the other team probably picked off one of your dps.

 

In high skill pvp, the defense is so favored over the offense, that your dps MUST locate and burst on targets that do not have guard, do not have defensive CDs up AND do it while they (your dps) are not taunted. Anything else and you are just spinning your wheels. Using EN against a high profile enemy healer rarely meets those conditions. Consequently using EN in such a manner is often a waste, and if you reinforce that failure by having other dps also attack that target, you are increasing your lost dps.

 

You're under the assumption that the team using the net hasn't set up a plan to stop cross healing and guard. The same way you coordinate CC to cap a node you can do so to eliminate a key player. Ranked matches are all about CONTROL.

 

You're adding these downsides that do not exist if you use it right. Why would the other team kill my dps again? What about netting makes it so my team can no longer heal and protect?

 

When they are CC'd and one of them is being focused with no way of escaping, how exactly do the both protect their netted friend and take out my dps? Focusing is not the same as mindless tunnel vision. Yes, they can protect a netted target and it happens plenty. But a well set up trap involving the net can take out those pesky smugglers better than anything else.

 

There is no such thing as an automatic kill skill, I'm not saying that. Net has counters, but every counter also has a counter. TTK is so slow right now that really the only way to kill people is to control the battle, not burst through it. Net is your most useful skill. Not your highest dps or your best defensive measure. Getting kills is about coordination and timing, not who can get the biggest HSM crit.

[Macroeconomics]

You're under the assumption that the team using the net hasn't set up a plan to stop cross healing and guard. The same way you coordinate CC to cap a node you can do so to eliminate a key player. Ranked matches are all about CONTROL.

 

And you are assuming that the team having EN used against them just stands there and takes it. Amongst good melee players, the first thing they do against a player that uses EN on them is their AoE mezz. Otherwise useless against a ranged opponent, this now because a EN negation ability. And there are plenty of others.

 

I'll repeat what I have said previously, against a good opponent EN is not a decisive ability. It can speed up the kill time on an opponent that is near death. A ranked team that uses a Merc dps solely for that benefit is making a dubious decision.

[Mordeguy]

And you are assuming that the team having EN used against them just stands there and takes it. Amongst good melee players, the first thing they do against a player that uses EN on them is their AoE mezz. Otherwise useless against a ranged opponent, this now because a EN negation ability. And there are plenty of others.

 

I'll repeat what I have said previously, against a good opponent EN is not a decisive ability. It can speed up the kill time on an opponent that is near death. A ranked team that uses a Merc dps solely for that benefit is making a dubious decision.

 

If they have the AoE mez ready and your team falls into their trap then good on them countering your net and bad on you guys for grouping up for that.. Catching a low hp healer with the net and coordinating with your team to at least CC their tank away from the healer and the cross healer if there is one WILL often result in a kill. I'm sorry if you don't get these results, like everything else in rated it requires teamwork and planning. Preventing rolling and vanishing on a scoundrel makes it very difficult for them to escape in a dire moment. I feel like you are just really underestimating how effective EN can be.

 

Like I said it's no auto-kill but effective use of it can allow you to take out a target that would otherwise slip away. I can tell you more mercs have earned a spot due to EN than HSM. There's a reason for that. Now, whether the class as a whole is worth taking just because of EN is another question, but that doesn't change the fact that if we're looking at individual skills that one is right at the top when it comes to value in pvp.

 

Anyway - we'll just have to disagree on it. We've sort of derailed things.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Mordeguy

[Macroeconomics]

If they have the AoE mez ready and your team falls into their trap then good on them countering your net and bad on you guys for grouping up for that.

 

The whole point is that your team is going to group up on the EN'ed healer in an attempt to bring him down. Melee dps will be on him and even ranged dps will often need to move closer to avoid LoS blocks. All of which makes your team more vulnerable to AoE mezz and AoE taunts. As I have stated elsewhere, the current game is so tilted in favor of the defense, that when high skill teams meet, the only way to get a kill is to catch the other team off guard. If you are obvious in designating a focus fire target, which is what EN'ing a healer does, then you are just subjecting your entire dps effort to taunts, intercedes and defensive shielding, i.e. making it much easier for the other team to maximize its mitigation efforts. I'll give you an example - let's say the enemy operative healer made a mistake and used up his cc breaker. Let's say his tank also made a mistake and used up his cc breaker AND mispositioned himself. Now even if your tank is able to pull the enemy tank guarding the healer you have targeted away from the healer, all the enemy healer needs to do is pop a shield, have his sniper team mate roll to him and pop the AoE shield and your 4 dps are going to be unable to burn past the two enemy healers. Never mind any taunts, intercedes from Jugg dps, mezz/stuns, wz adrenals, evasion, etc. Basically EN + 4 dps + lucky pull on enemy tank isn't pressuring the enemy team to use more than maybe 20% of its defensive portfolio - and that's after they blew it by using up their cc breakers.