ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

Now that I'm finally done with that silliness, has anyone suggested a new proposal or do we still stand at 7?

 

Also, someone made the contention that Duffy and Askajedi are sites that post false information and make up interviews and the like. Does anyone else concur with this? If you do, I would appreciate it if those folks could post some examples of the dishonesty.

 

If that is the case (I'm very skeptical that it is.) I will stop posting information from those two sites.

 

I'm pretty sure Duffy isnt going to be very happy about being called a liar.

 

This reminds me of the Appearance thread back in beta. Looks like I might have to deal with trolling the same way I did back then....

Edited June 22, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Jeweledleah]

incidentally, I and others have stated multiple times the benefits of AC for some people and for the game in general.

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

naturally - this is not for everyone. some people like their current AC. some people have characters already in each AC. some people like playing through the same story more than once.

 

flash of the month concerns can be addressed by putting limitations on this option, other then make it cost so much that most will just scoff in disgust and walk away from it. its not in bioware's interest to add something people won't want to buy.

 

its an options that bioware left open through their character and story design as well as through their more recent statements. option, not a requirement, just another choice people can chose to take? or ignore.

[LordArtemis]

incidentally, I and others have stated multiple times the benefits of AC for some people and for the game in general.

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

naturally - this is not for everyone. some people like their current AC. some people have characters already in each AC. some people like playing through the same story more than once.

 

flash of the month concerns can be addressed by putting limitations on this option, other then make it cost so much that most will just scoff in disgust and walk away from it. its not in bioware's interest to add something people won't want to buy.

 

its an options that bioware left open through their character and story design as well as through their more recent statements. option, not a requirement, just another choice people can chose to take? or ignore.

 

I'd like to post what I feel would be some detriments. That doesn't mean what I post is more or less important than your pros, not does this post invalidate yours. I would just like to lend my opinion on what I see could be some pitfalls.

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

There may be more, if others want to add pros and cons I can compile lists for both and add it to the post block for the proposals. Only serious, logical, non-insulting pros and cons please. I will not cater to trolls.

Edited June 22, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Jeweledleah]

I'd like to post what I feel would be some detriments. That doesn't mean what I post is more or less important than your pros, not does this post invalidate yours. I would just like to lend my opinion on what I see could be some pitfalls.

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

There may be more, if others want to add pros and cons I can compile lists for both and add it to the post block for the proposals. Only serious, logical, non-insulting pros and cons please. I will not cater to trolls.

 

fair points, here's my rebbutals.

 

1. there are always people who resist change at first. most eventually adopt. those that don't tend to balance out by people who come back/start playing because of the changes

 

2. things, including opinions change. people tend to be against shaking up status quo, because it means different and unfamiliar. but change is not necessarily a bad thing. some people vocally being against something doesn't mean its not worth considering or trying.

 

3. classes are already underrepresented. people talk about shelving their assassins/shadows due to how spikily they take damage nowadays (and as a healer, assassin tanks are my least favorite to heal - good sins can compensate, but even they cannot fix the issue of them being super squishy against physical damage). the main difference is - without change characters just get abandoned and non altoholics often stop playing all together. with AC change- they have an option. and honestly, solution would be balances AC's so that they are all roughly equal in their viability and the main difference is specifics of playstyle.

 

4. so there should be restrictions. everything has potential to be abused and exploited, so the key is - before implementing anything, test it thoroughly. its possible, that's exactly what they are doing right now, they are just not at the point where they can conclusively say yes or no yet.

 

5. possibly. unless done with certain limitations. now, this is my personal opinion, but I never felt like AC choice was significant to begin with. you just picked out playstyle, nothing more. not like light or dark decisions, which companions to bring with you or which role to play. but I have stated that I view class as tied to individual class story, not specializations within that story - this being a somewhat unique SWTOR feature. so to me at least flexibility in playstyle is more important. (I was VERY happy when they implemented field respec - the only alts of mine that don't have it are pure dps characters and even they may end up with it eventually)

 

6. could.. unless restrictions are implemented in addition to working on balancing AC's and specs to be roughly equal in general effectiveness (anything from limiting the number of times the change can be made, to how often it can be made, to raising the cost with each subsequent change)

 

7. again, could, though I'm not sure how it can get any worse than it already is. however- as a safeguard, adding a short unskippable tutorial to the change - anything from conversation with an npc (something like original conversation you have when choosing it the first time, only more involved) to a quest that needs to be completed, before change is finalized - quest that would require you to use specific abilities in a specific way (as an added bonus, that quest could be used as testing ground for someone who might be considering the change, but not entirely sure about it - provided quest comes with yes, I want to change, no I want to stay with my old AC - options).

 

there are pro's and cons to everything. IMO the key is to see which column has more stuff in it, and go from there.

 

heck one of the solutions to the problem of unique no longer available items rather than allowing them to change AC, could be giving people an opportunity to reclaim them through collections. (and I personally would pay cartel coins to unlock my black/green crystal for my entire account - in a heartbeat). that still doesn't solve the issue of not enjoying the story more than once though.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Hizoka]

fair points, here's my rebbutals.

 

1. there are always people who resist change at first. most eventually adopt. those that don't tend to balance out by people who come back/start playing because of the changes

 

2. things, including opinions change. people tend to be against shaking up status quo, because it means different and unfamiliar. but change is not necessarily a bad thing. some people vocally being against something doesn't mean its not worth considering or trying.

 

3. classes are already underrepresented. people talk about shelving their assassins/shadows due to how spikily they take damage nowadays (and as a healer, assassin tanks are my least favorite to heal - good sins can compensate, but even they cannot fix the issue of them being super squishy against physical damage). the main difference is - without change characters just get abandoned and non altoholics often stop playing all together. with AC change- they have an option. and honestly, solution would be balances AC's so that they are all roughly equal in their viability and the main difference is specifics of playstyle.

 

4. so there should be restrictions. everything has potential to be abused and exploited, so the key is - before implementing anything, test it thoroughly. its possible, that's exactly what they are doing right now, they are just not at the point where they can conclusively say yes or no yet.

 

5. possibly. unless done with certain limitations. now, this is my personal opinion, but I never felt like AC choice was significant to begin with. you just picked out playstyle, nothing more. not like light or dark decisions, which companions to bring with you or which role to play. but I have stated that I view class as tied to individual class story, not specializations within that story - this being a somewhat unique SWTOR feature. so to me at least flexibility in playstyle is more important. (I was VERY happy when they implemented field respec - the only alts of mine that don't have it are pure dps characters and even they may end up with it eventually)

 

6. could.. unless restrictions are implemented in addition to working on balancing AC's and specs to be roughly equal in general effectiveness (anything from limiting the number of times the change can be made, to how often it can be made, to raising the cost with each subsequent change)

 

7. again, could, though I'm not sure how it can get any worse than it already is. however- as a safeguard, adding a short unskippable tutorial to the change - anything from conversation with an npc (something like original conversation you have when choosing it the first time, only more involved) to a quest that needs to be completed, before change is finalized - quest that would require you to use specific abilities in a specific way (as an added bonus, that quest could be used as testing ground for someone who might be considering the change, but not entirely sure about it - provided quest comes with yes, I want to change, no I want to stay with my old AC - options).

 

there are pro's and cons to everything. IMO the key is to see which column has more stuff in it, and go from there.

 

heck one of the solutions to the problem of unique no longer available items rather than allowing them to change AC, could be giving people an opportunity to reclaim them through collections. (and I personally would pay cartel coins to unlock my black/green crystal for my entire account - in a heartbeat). that still doesn't solve the issue of not enjoying the story more than once though.

 

you really think turning SWTOR into a pay to win game is good?

[TridusSWTOR]

if you do not understand the difference in a cosmetic change and the changing of a class then you do not belong in any kind of discussion.

 

They both require the legwork. Reading comphresion is your friend.

[TridusSWTOR]

Race changes are COSMETIC only, not a change of fundamental mechanics. That is the difference.

 

You missed the entire point. They both require legwork.

 

Good lord, re-read before you decide to post misinformation.

[branmakmuffin]

what reason is there to give someone a max level class for no reason other then childish want?

What reason is there to want to dictate to others how they spend their money in a game when it does not affect you?

 

it is pay to win and pay to win is how you kill an MMO

AC swap is not P2W, no matter how many times you call it that. The player still had to level the original AC to X. He or she is not getting a second, brand new character of level X right out of the gate. That would be P2W.

[Hizoka]

You missed the entire point. They both require legwork.

 

Good lord, re-read before you decide to post misinformation.

 

you missed the point... you equate a cosmetic change as the same thing a pay to win changes... you do not understand that changing a class is not a cosmetic change which is what they do with the CM, you are flat not smart enough to understand that changing your class is FAR different then changing what color your skin is.

[Hizoka]

What reason is there to want to dictate to others how they spend their money in a game when it does not affect you?

 

 

AC swap is not P2W, no matter how many times you call it that. The player still had to level the original AC to X. He or she is not getting a second, brand new character of level X right out of the gate. That would be P2W.

 

a commando is not the same class as a vanguard. they are different classes. Getting a new class at max level is pay to win. It does not matter if you do not think they are different classes EA says they are. So getting a class you have never payed at max level is pay to win, sorry you cannot understand that simply because you want max level characters you did not earn.

[Luckeyduckey]

a commando is not the same class as a vanguard. they are different classes. Getting a new class at max level is pay to win. It does not matter if you do not think they are different classes EA says they are. So getting a class you have never payed at max level is pay to win, sorry you cannot understand that simply because you want max level characters you did not earn.

 

Who *********** cares if it's pay to win. Life is about money. Go get a job.

[LordArtemis]

Here are the current proposals discussed in this thread.

 

 

Option 1

Level 10 to 15 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - 24 hour cooldown - once you reach level 16 AC is permanent - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 2

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - reduction to level 10 with change - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything except XP and quests are unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 3

 

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - max 2 changes allowed - no reduction in level - one month cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 4

 

Level 10 to 30 - Allow AC Change - max 1 change allowed - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 5

Level 10 to 46 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will up to 46 - no reduction in level - no cooldown - once you reach level 47 AC is permanent - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 6

Level 10 to 55 - Allow AC Change - no maximum changes, can change at will - no reduction in level - no cooldown - no level gate for permanent AC choice - everything is unaffected - armor/earpieces/weapons for character and companions are removed and must be reequipped.

 

Option 7

 

No AC change allowed.

 

 

 

And this is the pro and con list as it stands right now. It is certainly open for more additions or corrections.

 

 

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

There may be more, if others want to add pros and cons I can compile lists for both and add it to the post block for the proposals. Only serious, logical, non-insulting pros and cons please.

 

If I have missed anyone else's proposal or wish please let me know so I can correct or add it.

Edited June 22, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Xeperi]

Who *********** cares if it's pay to win. Life is about money. Go get a job.

 

Rarely do three short lines of text so thoroughly destroy the chances of a persons opinion being taken seriously in the future.

 

If life is about money why aren't you using the resources you spend on swtor to make more money? Because its not just about money.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Xeperi

[Xeperi]

PROS

 

1. breathing life into characters that may have been abandoned and thus extending someone's stay in game, their enjoyment in game.

2. allowing people who only have fun playing through a story once - experiment with their character without having to suffer through the story they already know and aren't having fun replaying.

3. allowing people to keep using unique, no longer acquirable items, that include pets, speeders, crystals, armor shells, as well as legacy perk unlocks on a character they have grown attached to, while enjoying the game play style that works better for them, within the same archetype, rather than having to reroll from scratch and lose all the investment they made into a character.

4. making extra money for bioware by making ac switch purchasable with cartel coins.

 

 

CONS

 

1) I would expect that many folks are not going to react well to this change if implemented.

2) They flirted with the idea before launch, even talked about it publicly, but in the end decided not to allow it. At the time folks were pretty dead set against it. I don't think it's likely the current environment has changed much since then.

3) Some classes could end up underrepresented due to bad design. Right now some folks stick with an AC they choose because they would have to reroll and do not wish to do so I would guess.

4) If restrictions are not in place this could end up being abused or exploited.

5) This will likely further demean AC choice.

6) Could cause FOTM issues.

7) If late game AC change is allowed it could end up causing folks that have an AC but do not know how to properly play it running Raids and Operations, making an existing problem worse.

 

 

There may be more, if others want to add pros and cons I can compile lists for both and add it to the post block for the proposals. Only serious, logical, non-insulting pros and cons please.

 

If I have missed anyone else's proposal or wish please let me know so I can correct or add it.

 

My suggestions of a progressive xp penalty are meant to maximize those pros while minimizing the cons. They are based mainly on this game. Half of that game is character builds. Really it allows for more build diversity and complexity than any game I have ever played. You play your build through to 80 (or 60, or 40) then reincarnate and do it all over again, with either a totally new build or with a improved version of the same build. The thing is, that system much allows for that kind of upgrading. For example, access to subraces that have inherent stat bonuses and which can be found as a part of end-game loot. You would need a maxed out build based on one of those subraces in order to even be able to survive the "new" endgame that was being developed. Constant development and refinement and always new content. For free. Then again that is a heavily modded/changed/tweaked/improved BW game that is made by and for the players.

 

Given that system, it is almost inconceivable for a player with multiple level 60+ characters of differing classes to ever roll a new toon. They simply reincarnate their older toons.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Xeperi

[MajikMyst]

-snip-

 

And you are capable saying absolutely nothing and acting like a total jerk to others..

 

You don't want to discuss anything.. You just want people the hold your hand and tell you how right you are..

 

My link and my posting of it was entirely accurate.. Sorry if proving your wrong was so inconvenient..

 

Yes I can say things that are logical and accurate.. That is all I do.. 100% of my posts are logical and accurate.. Your problem is that can't argue with right..

 

As for your pros and cons post?? You are starting to look like a broken record.. As for my questions you won't answer?? Well.. It just goes to show what I said about.. You don't want to have a real discussion.. You just want to lead us all around have us follow your every word.. You are not some college professor leading a discussion on AC swapping.. You are hardly even qualified to have the discussion.. You avoid reality to much.. You just want to substitute it with your own version of reality..

 

How does AC swapping benefit the game and or the players in it?? Do not use reasons that can be seen as making things easier or more convenient.. That leads to the accurate rebuttal of wanting due to laziness..

 

Do answer the question.. Because that will be the first pro you will have actually listed.. Failure to answering that question shows what I have been saying all along.. There is no reason to allow AC swapping.. And there isn't.. Sorry but that is 100% accurate..

 

What you need to understand is you can't have this discussion on your terms.. And this isn't even my terms.. There are rules in a debate.. The people that share my views have repeatedly come up with valid reasons as to why it would be a bad thing.. For the folks on the opposing view?? Well.. A lot of insults, name calling, just ignoring what is said... Not to mention a lot of pretending that some facts just don't exist.. But for a debetate to be fruitful and worthy, you have to deal in 100% facts.. No spin.. No bias.. (Yes you are bias despite your claims to be in the middle..) That means that both sides needs to come up with points and logic to support their views.. So far, only one side is doing that.. The game is hard to argue with.. Which is why it is constantly ignored by those that want AC swapping.. You have to look at the rebuttals and attempt to come up with something factual to refute them.. Yes, that means you have to prove the laziness rebuttal wrong by show in some real advantages that things that would benefit all players.. As long as nobody does that, then they are wrong.. Laziness continues to trump over all arguments because nobody can prove it wrong.. Insulting or belittling a person that offers the laziness argument simply shows the lack of argument and intelligence of the other side.

 

I respect you and your desire to have a real debate on this issue.. But debates can often be very hard.. People come to the table with differing amounts of information and views. So I go for the K.I.S.S. method.. (Keep It Simple Stupid) I stick to the basics.. The people that want AC swapping are doing everything but that.. They want to discuss whether or not an AC is a class.. Which is irrelevant.. They can't come up with any reasoning or pros of their own.. They spend their time denying the obvious, like what the game says.. You really should think about this..

 

So if you truly want to debate the issue Lord or anyone one.. You have your task.. Come up with a logical and intelligent argument that refutes the Laziness rebuttal..

 

If laziness is the only reason then there is no reason.. Roll another character and accomplish the same thing..

Edited June 22, 2013 by MajikMyst

[TridusSWTOR]

you missed the point... you equate a cosmetic change as the same thing a pay to win changes... you do not understand that changing a class is not a cosmetic change which is what they do with the CM, you are flat not smart enough to understand that changing your class is FAR different then changing what color your skin is.

 

You missed the point and need to work on actually reading people's post.

 

LEG

WORK

 

You are complaining they are getting a "free" level 55 because they never put in the LEG WORK.

 

So when in the past you needed to put in the LEG WORK in order to unlock a species via legacy you had to level to 50. Now you can just buy it.

 

You are just moving the goal-post because you don't even have a argument. The end.

[MajikMyst]

You missed the point and need to work on actually reading people's post.

 

LEG

WORK

 

You are complaining they are getting a "free" level 55 because they never put in the LEG WORK.

 

So when in the past you needed to put in the LEG WORK in order to unlock a species via legacy you had to level to 50. Now you can just buy it.

 

You are just moving the goal-post because you don't even have a argument. The end.

 

Are you really arguing that a species is the same as a Class?? Seriously??

 

Come on dude.. You know there is a huge difference and your example doesn't hold any water..

 

Your species is cosmetic and has no impact on the performance of your character..

 

Your class is precisely not a species.. It impacts everything and determines everything..

Edited June 22, 2013 by MajikMyst

[TridusSWTOR]

you really think turning SWTOR into a pay to win game is good?

 

So buying level 10 crystals that give the best stats is pay to win. I don't see the game self-destructing when they put that in the game.

 

Keep using the pay to win one liner though. What is the next catch phrase you'll use before you are utterly proven wrong on every point?

[TridusSWTOR]

Are you really arguing that a species is the same as a Class?? Seriously??

 

Come on dude.. You know there is a huge difference and your example doesn't hold any water..

 

Did you even the point of it? I'm sure you didn't, I shouldn't be surprised.

 

When you come back and re-read then you can decide to follow up with a logical question.

 

Keyword- LEGWORK

 

I even typed it in caps so people would get the hint...oh lord that wasn't enough though.

[MajikMyst]

So buying level 10 crystals that give the best stats is pay to win. I don't see the game self-destructing when they put that in the game.

 

Keep using the pay to win one liner though. What is the next catch phrase you'll use before you are utterly proven wrong on every point?

 

So what would you say to being able to buy and wear ilvl 72 gear at level 10??

 

Your crystal is one item that gives a singe stat.. It is not even a primary stat.. So it doesn't amount to all that much impact.. If anything it is going to make you a little OP at the lower levels.. Once you hit about 25 or so, it really isn't going to be noticeable..

 

Come on dude.. Can we stick to reason here??

[MajikMyst]

Did you even the point of it? I'm sure you didn't, I shouldn't be surprised.

 

When you come back and re-read then you can decide to follow up with a logical question.

 

Keyword- LEGWORK

 

I even typed it in caps so people would get the hint...oh lord that wasn't enough though.

 

I got the point.. You made a fool of yourself with a bad example.. You are comparing apples to oranges and attempting to make a point..

 

AC swapping would be giving someone a free character.. I have a lvl 55 Shadow.. Why should I be able to turn it into a lvl 55 Sage?? I didn't role a sage and didn't level a sage.. Do you get it now??

[Xeperi]

So if you truly want to debate the issue Lord or anyone one.. You have your task.. Come up with a logical and intelligent argument that refutes the Laziness rebuttal..

 

If laziness is the only reason then there is no reason.. Roll another character and accomplish the same thing..

 

I've brought up a ton of reasons outside of "laziness" for why ac switching is a bad idea. No one has even responded to my points. Others bring these points up, and minus vitriol there is little said in this thread by anyone, that is actually responded to.

[Illyean]

And you are capable saying absolutely nothing and acting like a total jerk to others..

 

You don't want to discuss anything.. You just want people the hold your hand and tell you how right you are..

 

My link and my posting of it was entirely accurate.. Sorry if proving your wrong was so inconvenient..

 

Yes I can say things that are logical and accurate.. That is all I do.. 100% of my posts are logical and accurate.. Your problem is that can't argue with right..

 

As for your pros and cons post?? You are starting to look like a broken record.. As for my questions you won't answer?? Well.. It just goes to show what I said about.. You don't want to have a real discussion.. You just want to lead us all around have us follow your every word.. You are not some college professor leading a discussion on AC swapping.. You are hardly even qualified to have the discussion.. You avoid reality to much.. You just want to substitute it with your own version of reality..

 

How does AC swapping benefit the game and or the players in it?? Do not use reasons that can be seen as making things easier or more convenient.. That leads to the accurate rebuttal of wanting due to laziness..

 

Do answer the question.. Because that will be the first pro you will have actually listed.. Failure to answering that question shows what I have been saying all along.. There is no reason to allow AC swapping.. And there isn't.. Sorry but that is 100% accurate..

 

What you need to understand is you can't have this discussion on your terms.. And this isn't even my terms.. There are rules in a debate.. The people that share my views have repeatedly come up with valid reasons as to why it would be a bad thing.. For the folks on the opposing view?? Well.. A lot of insults, name calling, just ignoring what is said... Not to mention a lot of pretending that some facts just don't exist.. But for a debetate to be fruitful and worthy, you have to deal in 100% facts.. No spin.. No bias.. (Yes you are bias despite your claims to be in the middle..) That means that both sides needs to come up with points and logic to support their views.. So far, only one side is doing that.. The game is hard to argue with.. Which is why it is constantly ignored by those that want AC swapping.. You have to look at the rebuttals and attempt to come up with something factual to refute them.. Yes, that means you have to prove the laziness rebuttal wrong by show in some real advantages that things that would benefit all players.. As long as nobody does that, then they are wrong.. Laziness continues to trump over all arguments because nobody can prove it wrong.. Insulting or belittling a person that offers the laziness argument simply shows the lack of argument and intelligence of the other side.

 

I respect you and your desire to have a real debate on this issue.. But debates can often be very hard.. People come to the table with differing amounts of information and views. So I go for the K.I.S.S. method.. (Keep It Simple Stupid) I stick to the basics.. The people that want AC swapping are doing everything but that.. They want to discuss whether or not an AC is a class.. Which is irrelevant.. They can't come up with any reasoning or pros of their own.. They spend their time denying the obvious, like what the game says.. You really should think about this..

 

So if you truly want to debate the issue Lord or anyone one.. You have your task.. Come up with a logical and intelligent argument that refutes the Laziness rebuttal..

 

If laziness is the only reason then there is no reason.. Roll another character and accomplish the same thing..

 

you do realise that you are 'debating' in just the same way, don;t you? You are offering your opinion as reasoned, logical, fact. It's not, it's your opinion, to which you are entitled and should be respected for. What you really are not entitled to or to be respected for is telling someone they are breaking your debate rules when you yourself are not following them and there, in fact, no bloody rules in the first place.

 

at this point EA/BW have made no statement about this being likely or not, previously there have been comments that make mention of some historical yes/no/maybe, but there is nothing recent or valid. Forums are for people to express their views about game related matters. Until EA/BW say otherwise this is just as likely to happen as it is not, it's that simple and for all your talk, your opinion on this is as likely to be considered or not.

 

my own view is this can happen, it will not impact how I play if you change your AC, it wont impact how I play if you change your class - BECAUSE YOU ALREADY CAN! this is a make it easier, possibly with some restrictions attached, concept, that's all. I wanted both smuggler AC's, I rolled them both. If I could have changed AC I would have but I also would have probably still rolled both to have both.

 

as for the 'I had to grind out 55 levels to get my Sage so you should too' - want a cookie?

[TridusSWTOR]

I got the point.. You made a fool of yourself with a bad example.. You are comparing apples to oranges and attempting to make a point..

 

AC swapping would be giving someone a free character.. I have a lvl 55 Shadow.. Why should I be able to turn it into a lvl 55 Sage?? I didn't role a sage and didn't level a sage.. Do you get it now??

 

A free character? You mean you get an extra character? Because that would be in lines with a free character.

 

So you say you leveled a 55 shadow. So in you're world, when you do an AC change you get a 55 sage but you claim that is a "free character". Yet it is not.

 

If you want to join the rest of reality though, when you level a 55 shadow and AC change to a level 55 sage. You don't get a free character, you get a AC change.

 

If you got a free character you would level a 55 shadow and AC change to a level 55 sage and get them BOTH on your account. You see? That would be a free character.

 

But since they actually put in the work to get to level 1 to level 55, that is not a "free" character. It's a character.

 

Learn the difference.

[branmakmuffin]

a commando is not the same class as a vanguard. they are different classes.

They are not different classes, they are different sub-classes of the same base class.

 

You keep repeating the same debatable statements as if you think that if you repeat them often enough that will end the debate about them.

Edited June 22, 2013 by branmakmuffin