Loot Ninjas

[ZionHalcyon]

They should make it so you can only roll need if it's for your class. Aka a consular won't be able to roll need on a knight's gear. It 's not perfect but it would at least help hinder loot ninjas.

 

The best thing you can do is call them out on rolling need on a green drop, if they still do, boot them prior to the boss to save yourself any trouble.

 

I support this 1000%

[AidanLightwalker]

I support this 1000%

 

Granted I haven't played *** in a long time, I do believe this what they did in cata.

[Tychus]

Really? I have 4 lvl 55s that I have ran everything with, numerous times and I have never seen that happen. I run a lot with a group where the group composition is , sentinel, sage telekinesis (whatever lol) vanguard tank and sage healer and have never once seen a piece of cunning gear drop. More often than not its willpower gear. I wonder why that is? I've been here since beta and play the heck out of this game, don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining. Bioware has even confirmed this.

 

I have also been here since early and late beta so don't even try using that one as a get out of jail card of knowing whats what, if Bioware has confirmed the loot system you keep saying is true how come I have seen gear drop multiple times for classes that are'nt even in the percent group over the last year and a half which seems pretty suspect from what your saying.

 

if you or someone els would soo kindly link this confirmation on the loot system it would be nice, and adding "Bioware has even confirmed this" with out a link does nothing.

 

P,s also hate loot ninjas with a vengance.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Tychus

[SavingPrincess]

I had this happen twice in the last couple weeks in a group.

 

Green drop -> Person needs... off spec

(Okay whatever, maybe for a companion... no big deal)

Blue drop -> Person needs... again off spec....

(Meh, not on spec for me so I don't care)

Orange drop -> Person needs... AGAIN off spec...

Me: "Why are you needing on everything"

Them: "Need to sell"

 

So apparently the game doesn't do a very good job of explaining what "needing" is, so to lock it to class would be very nice.

 

At the very least, if everyone rolls need, the people with the proper class should roll with a "priority" need roll, so they have access to it first, basically it would create a 4th level of roll while still using the same button.

[Themanthatisi]

If ninja looting is on the rise, we can perhaps look at the fact GTN prices are going up, especially for Armor. Inflation is a motivator to try and make more money, hence, people do bad things to get it when they know no other way that is ethical or they are lazy.

 

just like in real life....

 

the collections idea was a great thing for the CM and some players, but it is hitting GTN hard in a bad way for the consumer. Well, its good for me, since i am making higher profits on things I had stocked up, but I am not sure it is good for the game as a whole.

 

Even the once dirt cheap Preceptors armor is over 200k now (color dyes have also helped ugly stuff to now become desirable, adding to the rising prices)..... as prices go higher, I expect more issues, including ninja's.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Themanthatisi

[clocknane]

Ok, me and my wife this weekend decided to roll new characters. As we have been going through the early FP's and heroic missions I have noticed a huge amount of loot ninjas, it's crazy. It seems in the last few days on the low level characters there hasn't been a single group that we haven't had to kick some one for being a ninja. Has it suddenly become the norm to roll need on everything an no one told us?

 

Ninja Looters have been around since MMO's existed. Unfortunately, the only way to avoid them is to run dungeons with friends/guildies, and.or hope the devs figure a way out that excludes certain classes from rolling need on an item that does not contain "main" stats for them (i.e. cunning gear for GS, Str gear for Sent). A GS should not be allowed to need an item with Wis/str period. Likewise, a Jedi Consular should be able to roll need on GS Cunning gear or Commando Aim gear.

 

People can say all they want that companions need gear too, which is true, but there is a point where character and integrity come into play. If you inspect a player and they need an item, like actually need it, and their main character can use the item, don't roll need on it for your companion, that is just douche-baggery at it's worse.

 

Sorry OP, in this sad world, there are just people who are selfish and will need everything, some even just to spite others. Only thing you can do is what I mentioned above, or hope humanity improves on character.

[Hizoka]

Ninja Looters have been around since MMO's existed. Unfortunately, the only way to avoid them is to run dungeons with friends/guildies, and.or hope the devs figure a way out that excludes certain classes from rolling need on an item that does not contain "main" stats for them (i.e. cunning gear for GS, Str gear for Sent). A GS should not be allowed to need an item with Wis/str period. Likewise, a Jedi Consular should be able to roll need on GS Cunning gear or Commando Aim gear.

 

People can say all they want that companions need gear too, which is true, but there is a point where character and integrity come into play. If you inspect a player and they need an item, like actually need it, and their main character can use the item, don't roll need on it for your companion, that is just douche-baggery at it's worse.

 

Sorry OP, in this sad world, there are just people who are selfish and will need everything, some even just to spite others. Only thing you can do is what I mentioned above, or hope humanity improves on character.

 

BTW you know your signature is wrong right??? you were one of the first weekend testing groups but there were real beta testers more then 6 months before you. BTW the weekenders were used to stress test they were ignored in all forms of feed back.

[clocknane]

BTW you know your signature is wrong right??? you were one of the first weekend testing groups but there were real beta testers more then 6 months before you. BTW the weekenders were used to stress test they were ignored in all forms of feed back.

 

No, it is not wrong. It says Beta test, not ALPHA.. beta. If you knew how they went about numbering testing you would know this. I do, and learned from someone I know who USE to be affiliated with the company. The testers you are discussing were not regular testers, they were company employees, family members, and special "Fanboi" Websites, I am speaking of people NOT affiliated in such ways, you know, the normal folk. It is ok to be jelly though.

Edited May 28, 2013 by clocknane

[clocknane]

Not, it is not wrong. It says Beta test, not ALPHA.. beta. If you knew how they went about numbering testing you would know this. I do, and learned from someone I know who USE to be affiliated with the company. The testers you are discussing were not regular testers, they were company employees, family members, and special "Fanboi" Websites, I am speaking of people NOT affiliated in such ways, you know, the normal folk. It is ok to be jelly though.

 

Btw, stress test do not take place with only 45% server cap being used . Stress test were done MUCH later during beta phases which contained MANY more testers than were included in the testing phase I was in. That is all I will tell you.

[lordspyder]

I had this happen twice in the last couple weeks in a group.

 

Green drop -> Person needs... off spec

(Okay whatever, maybe for a companion... no big deal)

Blue drop -> Person needs... again off spec....

(Meh, not on spec for me so I don't care)

Orange drop -> Person needs... AGAIN off spec...

Me: "Why are you needing on everything"

Them: "Need to sell"

 

So apparently the game doesn't do a very good job of explaining what "needing" is, so to lock it to class would be very nice.

 

At the very least, if everyone rolls need, the people with the proper class should roll with a "priority" need roll, so they have access to it first, basically it would create a 4th level of roll while still using the same button.

 

After the first few times, I keep an eye on the loot rolls like a hawk and try to confront the ninjas as soon as possible, but most either just ignore you, or get abusive....

I guess it takes all kinds.

[branmakmuffin]

It has nothing to do about childish.

The whining on both sides, about a friggin' game, is childish.

 

/end transmission

[Darth_Exar]

/Ironfist

[AidanLightwalker]

I have also been here since early and late beta so don't even try using that one as a get out of jail card of knowing whats what, if Bioware has confirmed the loot system you keep saying is true how come I have seen gear drop multiple times for classes that are'nt even in the percent group over the last year and a half which seems pretty suspect from what your saying.

 

if you or someone els would soo kindly link this confirmation on the loot system it would be nice, and adding "Bioware has even confirmed this" with out a link does nothing.

 

P,s also hate loot ninjas with a vengance.

 

Here ya go, notice how David talks about tweaking the system to ensure that loot drops are Useable based off of class composition. I remember when they made this change. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4685488

 

And contrary to your claims, I have not seen this. I don't remember ever seeing it before the change and I don't recall ever seeing it now. Its much harder to notice in ops since you normally have at least 1 of each member type but 4 man flashpoints are easy to monitor. You got a screen shot or something of this happening to you?

Edited May 29, 2013 by AidanLightwalker

[MollyDresden]

It seems to me that it would help in this game to add another button between 'need' and 'greed': 'need for companion'. (That would also count of off-spec and alts.) Then make it so that everyone can only need on gear they can actually use for the character they're currently playing, in their current role (differentiating between armor type, main stat, and possibly dps/tank/heals). Then anyone can click the other three. "Need for companion" would have priority over "greed". Assuming people use it correctly, it would mean that if you can actually use it for your comp, you'd get it over someone who just wants to sell it. But making that lock on the "Need" option so that you can only need if you actually need it for your character is critical.

[Ratajack]

Ratajack you're a douchebag. Your companion didn't help clear sh*t. Your companion did nothing to speed any progress in any FP if you are a full group - and therefor, even by your own logic is entitled to nothing.

 

Your whole rant about respecting your rolls is just a lame defense for needing on everything in the game. The social norm is not behaving like you so your behavior only let's you get more loot then people who have courtesy.

 

Stop with the bs, just be honest about your behavior, you are not following some honorable loot code that is reserved to 10% of the community, you are just greedy.

 

No BS here. You can make any assumptions you wish about me, but you are dead wrong. I meant every word I said. I can and do personally choose not to roll on gear that is not a direct upgrade while at the same time respecting your right to roll on that piece of gear that is an upgrade for my character and your companion. Just because some players cannot see that there is a PERSON and not some virtual pixel avatar that you are denying a chance at loot that the PERSON helped to produce does not mean that everyone has the same blinders on.

 

Social norms are not always the "right" thing to do. They are often simply justification for behavior people know is wrong. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would tell that vegan who helped to produce that meat that he had no right to even think about giving it to his friend if they were face to face with that vegan, but the anonymity of the internet makes it not only acceptable, but the "social norm" to do so.

[Ratajack]

No, your trivializing it. We all know that Bioware design the loot system to drop loot based off of group composition. That being said, if I am the only knight in the group and str dps gear drops, it dropped because I was in the group. If I wasn't there, the str gear wouldn't ha e dropped in the first place. Making it hard for someone to ninja in the first place. Because I was there and it dropped because of ME, what gives you the right to take it? What makes you think you are entitled to it? You screwed someone, plain and simple.

 

If the supposed system for gear drops being based off group composition was working correctly, then you would have a point. However it does not work that way. I have been in many groups where no one of the appropriate class for a given drop is even present. The drops are still random drops off that boss's loot table, thus that strength piece did not drop because there was a knight in the group, but because the RNG decided that the strength piece would drop.

[Jeweledleah]

No BS here. You can make any assumptions you wish about me, but you are dead wrong. I meant every word I said. I can and do personally choose not to roll on gear that is not a direct upgrade while at the same time respecting your right to roll on that piece of gear that is an upgrade for my character and your companion. Just because some players cannot see that there is a PERSON and not some virtual pixel avatar that you are denying a chance at loot that the PERSON helped to produce does not mean that everyone has the same blinders on.

 

Social norms are not always the "right" thing to do. They are often simply justification for behavior people know is wrong. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would tell that vegan who helped to produce that meat that he had no right to even think about giving it to his friend if they were face to face with that vegan, but the anonymity of the internet makes it not only acceptable, but the "social norm" to do so.

 

who says they don't have a right?

 

they have a right to think about it and they certainly have a right to ask the rest of the team if its ok with them. and you bet your *** if I were faced with a similar situation in real life? I would have this same exact response. and unlike virtual world with its much lesser accountability, there would be more weight to this response of mine

 

you are defending the right of people to act as if their wants, all of their wants are better than everyone else's even as you proclaim to defend the opposite.

 

not all social norms are good. but in this case? this particular social norm exists for a good reason.

and people who refuse to follow these norms because they think they know better, and/or they simply don't care about anyone other than themselves, is why we end up with draconian laws and regulations that punish people who never broke the laws in a first place, because of the minority who refuses to play nice.

 

also - you are very wrong about loot drops. they do drop depending on the class of the person in a group. they don't take spec into account (so you might see dps pieces drop for an advanced class that is present as a healer), but they do take the people present into rng consideration.

 

however- this doesn't apply to BOE drops, including blue drops that some of the minor bosses drop. those ARE completely random, in part because everyone could if they so wished, sell them on GTN, etc.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[AidanLightwalker]

No BS here. You can make any assumptions you wish about me, but you are dead wrong. I meant every word I said. I can and do personally choose not to roll on gear that is not a direct upgrade while at the same time respecting your right to roll on that piece of gear that is an upgrade for my character and your companion. Just because some players cannot see that there is a PERSON and not some virtual pixel avatar that you are denying a chance at loot that the PERSON helped to produce does not mean that everyone has the same blinders on.

 

Social norms are not always the "right" thing to do. They are often simply justification for behavior people know is wrong. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would tell that vegan who helped to produce that meat that he had no right to even think about giving it to his friend if they were face to face with that vegan, but the anonymity of the internet makes it not only acceptable, but the "social norm" to do so.

 

All though I don't agree with you, you have been polite in defending your position on this subject, so I do apologize for the names people are referring to you as.

 

But I do disagree again lol. My sons school psychologist was just talking to me the other day about his "behavior" and how we needed to get it under control. When he asked me why I wasn't taking a stronger approach on the subject, I responded with "I didn't want him to think something was wrong with him and I trivialized it" so that he would know I didn't approve but not to the point that something was wrong with him. The psychologist told me this was the wrong approach. That while I maybe preventing harm now, what I was doing was going to cause more harm down the road when "society tells him in a not so trivial manner that his behavior isn't appropriate."

 

To me this says that what society deems proper is the reality of a situation. I'm sure there are cases that society has been wrong but I don't think this is one of them. In this case, I think society could be swapped for community and the community has spoken. Did you not read one posters comments about the meat eater helping the vegan get vegetables and getting help getting meat in return? Do you really not see the I help you, you help me comrodery in this logic??

[Ratajack]

No thats a bad idea. It only shortens the life span of Flashpoints.

 

I'm asking an honest question here, but why would i shorten the lifespan of FP's. If everyone received the same, or even a random piece of loot from the boss's loot table, it may not be a piece suitable for their character, but appropriate for their companion.

 

If the item is suitable for his character, he may be that much closer to not needing to run that particular FP again, but remember that according to "social norm" there is a good chance he would have won that piece anyway as the other members would not be permitted to roll need for their companions, so there likely would be no difference either way.

 

If it is suitable for the companion, the player will still need to run the FP for the upgrade for his character, he just gets to gear his companions a little quicker and without having to fear being called a ninja.

 

You may argue that player A is able to gear his companions quicker then he will no longer need to run the FP's. Yet, according to many posters in this thread, players shouldn't be running FP's to gear their companions. Add to this the fact that someone who follows "social norm" trying to gear up a companion by running FP's would be fighting an uphill battle because if that player follows "social norm" he will likely not be able to gear up his companion by running FP's anyway as there will often be someone telling him can't roll need for his companion.

[Jeweledleah]

I'm asking an honest question here, but why would i shorten the lifespan of FP's. If everyone received the same, or even a random piece of loot from the boss's loot table, it may not be a piece suitable for their character, but appropriate for their companion.

 

If the item is suitable for his character, he may be that much closer to not needing to run that particular FP again, but remember that according to "social norm" there is a good chance he would have won that piece anyway as the other members would not be permitted to roll need for their companions, so there likely would be no difference either way.

 

If it is suitable for the companion, the player will still need to run the FP for the upgrade for his character, he just gets to gear his companions a little quicker and without having to fear being called a ninja.

 

You may argue that player A is able to gear his companions quicker then he will no longer need to run the FP's. Yet, according to many posters in this thread, players shouldn't be running FP's to gear their companions. Add to this the fact that someone who follows "social norm" trying to gear up a companion by running FP's would be fighting an uphill battle because if that player follows "social norm" he will likely not be able to gear up his companion by running FP's anyway as there will often be someone telling him can't roll need for his companion.

 

flashpoints drop basic coms. basic coms buy gear. companions can wear aforementioned gear. they can also wear campaign gear which is even easier to get.

 

you can greed drops and gear companion that way - giving you ALL equal chance to get a companion upgrade (that's part of what greed rolls are for, ti give people fair chance to get something that might not be immediate upgrade - isn't it weird how system actually accounts for it?). I know I have. you can ASK the group if you could roll need for companion and at least half the time, the answer is - sure, go ahead. and you can gear companion that way. you can craft the gear for companion. you can give them quest rewards. companions can get away with wearing gear that is not nearly as good as the gear you might need on a main characters. companions cannot participate in ops or pvp.

 

and while leveling? quests rewards give you companion gear. it even has their names on it, so that you don't get something wrong by accident. imagine that.

[Ratajack]

Here ya go, notice how David talks about tweaking the system to ensure that loot drops are Useable based off of class composition. I remember when they made this change. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4685488

 

And contrary to your claims, I have not seen this. I don't remember ever seeing it before the change and I don't recall ever seeing it now. Its much harder to notice in ops since you normally have at least 1 of each member type but 4 man flashpoints are easy to monitor. You got a screen shot or something of this happening to you?

 

Here's the post the post that lead to the two quotes you linked:

 

I thought flashpoints were supposed to give loot based off the group members' classes. Or is it only for ops and hardmode flashpoints? I ran bt on my level 13 merc with 2 other BHs and we had a lot of loot drop with strength and had an orange willpower lightsaber drop too

 

And now the quotes you linked:

 

Quote:

Caizic: In the 1.2 Legacy patch notes there is a section under Items and Economy and General that says "Loot drops from endgame activities, such as Operations and Flashpoints, now take group composition into account." Can someone please clarify what this means/how this works exactly? Thanks in advance!

 

David: Throughout the game, the composition of your group impacts the loot you get from defeating enemies. For the majority of content, the drops are skewed to favor whatever classes are present. This is a bias, but not a guarantee. In leveling Flashpoints, that bias is very strong, and will almost always give loot for the group. However, in endgame Flashpoints, there was no bias – drops were completely random. We’ve added a strong class bias to the loot drops for the endgame Flashpoints. In most cases, this guarantees a drop that can be used by someone in your group. The bias is an “opt-in” system for each character present. That means that you have the same loot playing as a solo Jedi Sentinel or a full group of Jedi Sentinels.

 

 

Quote:

DarkElvis: In the Q&A for April 27, you addressed a question about loot drops taking classes into account and how you added the bias into the endgame Flashpoints. Is there any way for this bias to check not just the base class but the advanced class as well? I would say this most affects Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights, who wear different classes of armor depending on their AC choice. Example: our normal Flashpoint group is a Powertech, Sniper, Marauder, and Sorcerer. It seems any time Sith Warrior gear drops, it's heavy armor, so only a Juggernaut could use it. Our Marauder has actually gotten very little gear from the endgame Flashpoints because of this. So is there any way for it to bias to Advanced Class, mainly to benefit Sith Warriors / Jedi Knights? Thanks in advance!

 

David: The bias actually uses base class or advanced class as appropriate. For example:

 

Medium Strength Armor = Marauder / Sentinel

Heavy Strength Armor = Juggernaut / Guardian

Strength DPS trinkets = Sith Warrior / Jedi Knight

Strength Tank trinkets = Juggernaut / Guardian

Offhand only Lightsabers = Marauder / Sentinel

 

This could be due to a bug in the endgame Flashpoints drops that should have been fixed in patch 1.2.2. If you keep seeing this issue, please send a bug report with as many details as possible. Which bosses you killed, what items dropped, and what your group composition was: these would be the most useful data points. There’s some room for this to occur due to randomness, but it should be limited in endgame content.

 

 

The quotes you link even state that it is not a guarantee that items will only drop if there is an appropriate class present, only that there is a bias. There is still a randomness factor, that does not even include bugs or the system not working as intended.

[AidanLightwalker]

flashpoints drop basic coms. basic coms buy gear. companions can wear aforementioned gear. they can also wear campaign gear which is even easier to get.

 

you can greed drops and gear companion that way - giving you ALL equal chance to get a companion upgrade (that's part of what greed rolls are for, ti give people fair chance to get something that might not be immediate upgrade - isn't it weird how system actually accounts for it?). I know I have. you can ASK the group if you could roll need for companion and at least half the time, the answer is - sure, go ahead. and you can gear companion that way. you can craft the gear for companion. you can give them quest rewards. companions can get away with wearing gear that is not nearly as good as the gear you might need on a main characters. companions cannot participate in ops or pvp.

 

and while leveling? quests rewards give you companion gear. it even has their names on it, so that you don't get something wrong by accident. imagine that.

 

I have to agree with this poster. In fact, hm FP gear is designed as a stepping stone to ops. Your companions will most likely never step foot in, hence they don't need it. Companions are basically used for dailies and solo pve content which basic comms gear accomplishes. In fact, gearing companions in black hole gear prior to 2.0 is what lead a lot of.people either Soi g or 2 mannjng most heroic 4s. Which lead to more and more people not being able to find groups for them. And if you recall, Bioware made the section x heroic 4 require 4 people to click on objectives forcing players to move away from using companions in them ultimately opening up group content for groups again and not 1 or 2 individuals with excessively gear companions.

[Ratajack]

also - you are very wrong about loot drops. they do drop depending on the class of the person in a group. they don't take spec into account (so you might see dps pieces drop for an advanced class that is present as a healer), but they do take the people present into rng consideration.

 

 

Sorry, but I am not wrong about loot drops. I know how the devs intend the system to work, but to this day I am still finding myself in groups in which loot drops when there is no appropriate class present. You may never have been in a group in which loot dropped when no appropriate class was present, but it still happens.

[Ratajack]

I have to agree with this poster. In fact, hm FP gear is designed as a stepping stone to ops. Your companions will most likely never step foot in, hence they don't need it. Companions are basically used for dailies and solo pve content which basic comms gear accomplishes. In fact, gearing companions in black hole gear prior to 2.0 is what lead a lot of.people either Soi g or 2 mannjng most heroic 4s. Which lead to more and more people not being able to find groups for them. And if you recall, Bioware made the section x heroic 4 require 4 people to click on objectives forcing players to move away from using companions in them ultimately opening up group content for groups again and not 1 or 2 individuals with excessively gear companions.

 

The poster you quoted gave a long and lengthy answer that did not even address the question asked.

 

The question asked was "how would giving each member of the group the same item shorten the lifespan of FP's?" I did give examples to clarify why I do not think there would be any noticeable difference in any given player's FP lifespan. I do not believe that giving each player the same item would significantly reduce the number of times a given player would need to run a specific FP, and therefore would have little affect on the lifespan if FP's.

[Jeweledleah]

The poster you quoted gave a long and lengthy answer that did not even address the question asked.

 

The question asked was "how would giving each member of the group the same item shorten the lifespan of FP's?" I did give examples to clarify why I do not think there would be any noticeable difference in any given player's FP lifespan. I do not believe that giving each player the same item would significantly reduce the number of times a given player would need to run a specific FP, and therefore would have little effect on the lifespan if FP's.

 

it addressed one of the statements you made, you just selectively chose to ignore things.

giving everyone identical loot drop probably won't shorten the lifespan of a flashpoint, since main reason people tend to run flashpoints are personal upgrades and coms, so getting a drop of something they cannot use themselves is not that much different from getting no drop at all.

 

what it might do, however, is foster even more of the attitude of seeing other people as pixel npc's who don't really much matter (and contrary to your belief, rolling need on upgrade for companion or alt versus someone rolling for direct upgrade is a shining example of that attitude). it will fix the loot drama, that's for sure - since people won't have to communicate about loot at all. not sure if that solution is good long term.

 

as for your chance of wrong loot dropping? well. there's a chance that next time i take a shower, I may slip, hit my head and die. it is however, an extremely low chance. exception to the rule. and as such, taking a small chance and framing it as a certainty is abit... extreme don't you think? also. please note the bind status of said inappropriate loot next time it drops, as well as its value. chances are, its BoE and/or lower level blue.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Jeweledleah