Why are you forced to spec Frontline Medic?

[SW_display_name]

I'm getting ready to boot up a Commando healer to explore a different healing style, and I'm curious about one thing as I prepare my UI and preview the abilities/skills. I was checking out the Torhead skill calculator and noticed something weird.

 

Frontline Medic seems like one of those "optional" PvP-oriented talents, but it's mandatory to get to Probe Medic, which looks like an un-skippably good PvE talent.

 

I don't understand why I would take Trauma Probe off the tank in PvE, even if I'm getting hammered. And if I am getting hammered in PvE, I don't understand why I would spend time shooting a weak DPS ability at a mob to try to proc a modest pseudo-HoT tick, instead of like... healing myself.

 

Is there some sense to having Frontline Medic in PvE that I'm missing, or is this basically a 2-point "tax" on the Skill Tree that you're just engineered into taking? Should I just pretend Probe Medic is a 5-point talent and move on?

[WooduckAUS]

Is there some sense to having Frontline Medic in PvE that I'm missing, or is this basically a 2-point "tax" on the Skill Tree that you're just engineered into taking? Should I just pretend Probe Medic is a 5-point talent and move on?

 

You are 100% right, no point at all.

 

As for TP, running fps with pugs i will actually use it on myself because i'm the one that ends up taking the bulk of the damage. But at this time, i certainly won't spamming HS to go for the insta heal from TP, i'm normally elbow deep in puppy dogs healing my a** off..... but thats another story for another forum.

 

5 point talent, meh, if there was somewhere more useful for those points thats where they'd be.... but the extra charges and the reduced rate limit is nice enough to steal those 5 points from me.

[Bleeters]

Considering that Assault has to squander nearly a dozen skill points in largely useless, pvp orientaged defensive talents just to have enough points invested to advance up the tiers, I'd say Combat Medic has it pretty easy. Edited May 26, 2013 by Bleeters

[Afieri]

Considering that Assault has to squander nearly a dozen skill points in largely useless, pvp orientaged defensive talents just to have enough points invested to advance up the tiers, I'd say Combat Medic has it pretty easy.

 

But we are playing combat medics not Assault spec so your point is a bit moot .

 

In PVP, it's useless still, because it ticks for such a small amount, that if I needed to heal myself for say 1000 health, then I can wait and throw a Kolto Bomb on a few people including myself and get the heal that way, or if things are very dire and I have someone hunting me down and I am kiting like a boss, it's very hard to effectively hammer shot someone to heal yourself whilst strafing ( should not be backpedalling). The only time it begins to approach decency is when it ticks because someone hits you, and you hammer shot the person in the same GCD and they both crit and you get roughly the same amount of healing as Kolto bomb in one GCD. Otherwise completely useless and you should not talent probe medic at all, spend your points elsewhere.

[oaceen]

But we are playing combat medics not Assault spec so your point is a bit moot .

 

i think the point is completely valid.

 

everyone accepts that combat medic has 2 basically useless skill points no matter the focus, but assault has quite a lot more in comparison.

[Afieri]

i think the point is completely valid.

 

everyone accepts that combat medic has 2 basically useless skill points no matter the focus, but assault has quite a lot more in comparison.

 

Just because one spec has to place points in talents that you don't particularly want to put points into, has no bearing on another spec that has to place points in talents that you don't particularly want to put points into. What happens if assault suddenly only gets 2 wasted skill points (as opposed to the situation now) in their tree, do you then just accept that you have 2 wasted points just because another spec has to waste 3? Or do you want those 2 skill points to go somewhere nice and keep campaigning for it?

 

I don't care about Assault when I spec medic. Just like I don't care about medic when I spec gunnery. I care about the spec that I am in, in that particular point in time, because it actually matters.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Afieri

[Gyronamics]

Just because one spec has to place points in talents that you don't particularly want to put points into, has no bearing on another spec that has to place points in talents that you don't particularly want to put points into. What happens if assault suddenly only gets 2 wasted skill points (as opposed to the situation now) in their tree, do you then just accept that you have 2 wasted points just because another spec has to waste 3? Or do you want those 2 skill points to go somewhere nice and keep campaigning for it?

 

I don't care about Assault when I spec medic. Just like I don't care about medic when I spec gunnery. I care about the spec that I am in, in that particular point in time, because it actually matters.

 

You're wasting points because the designers couldn't think of any other way to pad your tree out and we can all agree that Medic is a solid spec.

 

On the other hand to play Assault you're wasting points because it was horribly designed and to actually be good it needs to have access to ALL the non-core talents in Gunnery which make the whole vulnerable caster business viable.

[SW_display_name]

You're wasting points because the designers couldn't think of any other way to pad your tree out ...

lol. Understood.

 

I'd still prefer they let me choose where to pad — I'm fine with having 2 "empty" points, but I'd rather have 4% flat damage reduction or +20% healing under Reactive Shield than being forced to take this defensive tool.

Edited May 26, 2013 by SW_display_name

[RuQu]

lol. Understood.

 

I'd still prefer they let me choose where to pad — I'm fine with having 2 "empty" points, but I'd rather have 4% flat damage reduction or +20% healing under Reactive Shield than being forced to take this defensive tool.

 

The key thing to remember is that the only real choice is which tree. After that, they are purely a progression visualization tool. The only "choice" is while leveling, "Do I want this flat healing boost before the ability specific boost?"

 

Choices mean variability, and variability means more specs to balance and tougher juggling of metrics and tuning.

 

Once you accept that you only have the illusion of choice, the frustration of having no good choices will go away. Or you'll stop playing...either way, frustration resolved.

[SW_display_name]

I don't completely agree there. It is true that spec trees ultimately lead to tried-and-true cookie cutters, but they're not strictly so rigid. Especially, SWTOR has done a nice job of leaving some breathing room in most trees so one single path doesn't feel completely obvious.

 

For example, during the leveling process, you have a lot of room to decide what you want to get first. It may become irrelevant at "endgame", but it makes your character's growth feel meaningful as you level up. WoW made the fatal error of killing this (along with every other sense of progression while leveling), and it helped turned the leveling game into a soulless wasteland.

 

There's also room for hybrid specs (some of which are admirably effective in SWTOR, which is refreshing), and variations in point choice between PvE and PvP specs (for example, it's hard for me to give up 30s Debilitate when healing as Operative in WZs, but I don't even consider it in PvE).

 

And, in most trees you have elective points — you can't take a flat power boost, so you're "forced" to take a utility or defensive tool. The thing is, usually you have your pick from 5-6 different utility/defensive tools and can choose the electives that fit your needs best.

 

That's my confusion/gripe about Frontline Medic — not that my tree has elective points, but that it's given an enforced elective which feels useless for what I'm primarily interested in being good at (PvE group content), taking 2 points away from elective options I would find much more useful (4% dmg reduction or +20% heals under Reactive Shield).

[RuQu]

I don't completely agree there. It is true that spec trees ultimately lead to tried-and-true cookie cutters, but they're not strictly so rigid. Especially, SWTOR has done a nice job of leaving some breathing room in most trees so one single path doesn't feel completely obvious.

 

For example, during the leveling process, you have a lot of room to decide what you want to get first. It may become irrelevant at "endgame", but it makes your character's growth feel meaningful as you level up. WoW made the fatal error of killing this (along with every other sense of progression while leveling), and it helped turned the leveling game into a soulless wasteland.

 

There's also room for hybrid specs (some of which are admirably effective in SWTOR, which is refreshing), and variations in point choice between PvE and PvP specs (for example, it's hard for me to give up 30s Debilitate when healing as Operative in WZs, but I don't even consider it in PvE).

 

And, in most trees you have elective points — you can't take a flat power boost, so you're "forced" to take a utility or defensive tool. The thing is, usually you have your pick from 5-6 different utility/defensive tools and can choose the electives that fit your needs best.

 

That's my confusion/gripe about Frontline Medic — not that my tree has elective points, but that it's given an enforced elective which feels useless for what I'm primarily interested in being good at (PvE group content), taking 2 points away from elective options I would find much more useful (4% dmg reduction or +20% heals under Reactive Shield).

 

1) I mentioned the options while leveling. This is, however, mostly an illusion of choice because the choice has little effect at the time and no effect by endgame.

 

2) PVP and PVE are different games. That they have different specs is not a "choice." You could use a PVP spec in Operations, but you'd be wrong and hurting your team in the process.

 

3) SWTOR is not a hybrid spec friendly game. I haven't played WOW in years, so I could be out of date, but back during LK the hybrid builds were actually considered during balancing. In SWTOR, they aren't just not considered, they are actively opposed with most classes having 1st and 2nd tier skill choices that require a stance/ammo/mechanic unique to that tree. Anything on the first two tiers that requires a certain ammo cell has the requirement to prevent hybrids.

 

4) All of this comes down to your final point, inability to take both of an elective choice because they force you to take something useless to you. However, to them, this means far less variability. They don't have to compare Frontline Medic + 4% dmg reduction against 4% dmg reduction + 20% reactive shield healing against Frontline Medic + 20% reactive shield healing. They only have to compare the one. Keep in mind that this one extra spec variant is for one spec of one class. They'd have to deal with similar increases in specs across all specs and classes...and that's a lot of variability.

 

It is much better for them to limit where and how you get to choose and, ideally, to have those choices be very similar. A 4% damage reduction in content with X DPS coming in can be directly related to a 20% healing boost with a Y% uptime assuming an average of Z HPS. I'm not saying they can't look at the max healing from Frontline Medic assuming constant damage coming in and the two internal cooldowns, just that those two are essentially two choices of the same thing and the balance difference is negligible.

[SW_display_name]

1) I mentioned the options while leveling. This is, however, mostly an illusion of choice because the choice has little effect at the time and no effect by endgame.

So what? It's still a choice, and it's fun to feel you have the "power" to make it. Ultimately, nothing we do in games is that impressive, but it's OK as long as it feels rewarding.

 

2) PVP and PVE are different games. That they have different specs is not a "choice." You could use a PVP spec in Operations, but you'd be wrong and hurting your team in the process.

Huh? Yes it is. You have the power to choose how defensive vs. offensive you want to get with your build, which places you on a gradient between "pure PvE" and "pure PvP" (in an over-simplified sense). The fact you can even decide "I'm going to spec for PvP today" is putting a lot of choice in the player's hands.

 

3) SWTOR is not a hybrid spec friendly game.

What? Yes it is. There have been numerous successful hybrid specs, and right now — as a random example — Powertech DPS players are heavily experimenting with skipping top-tree talents in favor of cherrypicking their two Damage trees. Or look at the PvP Juggernaut hybrids that combined tanking with Vengeance utility advantages.

 

In SWTOR, they aren't just not considered, they are actively opposed with most classes having 1st and 2nd tier skill choices that require a stance/ammo/mechanic unique to that tree. Anything on the first two tiers that requires a certain ammo cell has the requirement to prevent hybrids.

Also wrong. The specs may push you into certain stances, but that doesn't mean you can't hybridize by skipping stuff in the other tree that relies on the "garbage" stance. And some classes don't even have stances to gate them like that.

 

In the PT example, to run Combustible Gas with a Flamethrower build, you simply skip the talent that boosts your Heat venting while in High Energy cylinder. This sort of thing is only possible when the devs give you choice room in your point distribution, rather than forcing every single passive bonus by spec choice like WoW has turned into.

 

4) All of this comes down to your final point, inability to take both of an elective choice because they force you to take something useless to you. However, to them, this means far less variability. They don't have to compare Frontline Medic + 4% dmg reduction against 4% dmg reduction + 20% reactive shield healing against Frontline Medic + 20% reactive shield healing. They only have to compare the one. Keep in mind that this one extra spec variant is for one spec of one class. They'd have to deal with similar increases in specs across all specs and classes...and that's a lot of variability.

Yet, basically every other spec of every other class I've played does have this sort of breathing room, so they seem "fine" with this threatening "variability" in every other case and in fact seem to deliberately design it in. This seems to contradict everything you're arguing.

[RuQu]

fanboy nerdrage.

 

I think the disagreement comes from differences in how we define "choice."

 

Let's examine three scenarios:

 

Common Setup:

There is a cookie. It is an amazing cookie. You WANT this cookie.

But first, you must make a CHOICE.

 

Scenario 1:

Before you are two bowls, one has a cup of steamed rice, the other a cup of steamed broccoli. You must eat both to get the cookie. Your CHOICE is "Which do I eat first?"

 

Scenario 2:

Before you are two bowls and one plate. One bowl has a cup of steamed white rice. The other bowl and the plate both have 1 cup each of steamed broccoli. To get your cookie, you must eat BOTH the rice and your CHOICE of either the bowl OR the plate of broccoli.

 

Scenario 3:

Before you are four bowls. One has 1 cup of steamed rice, the next has one cup of steamed broccoli, the next has one cup of steamed green beans, and the last has one cup of steamed peas. You must eat BOTH the rice and one of the following: the broccoli, the green beans, or the peas.

 

 

Scenario 1 is NOT a choice. You must eat rice and broccoli to get your cookie.

Scenario 2 is the ILLUSION of choice. You get to choose how you get the broccoli, but you still must eat rice and broccoli.

Scenario 3 is a choice.

 

Now, if you find Scenario 1 compelling and consider Scenario 2 to be exciting game design...Congratulations! You've found the right game for you!

 

If you don't find Scenarios 1 and 2 compelling, your options are to accept that the only real choice is role and class and find another aspect of the game to extract enjoyment from, or move on to a different game.

 

If somehow, remarkably, that analogy was lost on you, the point is that there is only one way to spec a Commando Healer. The choices are just a matter of presentation, but nothing changes your mechanic or influences your gameplay. If, instead, they made Kolto Wave reliant on various Kolto Bomb skill choices, and made Bacta Infusion and Trauma Probe reliant on various single target skill choices, you would have two vertical lines within Combat Medic, one focusing on AoE and the other on Single Target healing. Not only that, but to maximize the HPS on the tank, the AoE healer might need to stand in melee range to hit the tank with KW. This would result in two different play styles, one reliant on Trauma Probe and one on Kolto Bomb/Wave. A third option opens up if you could sacrifice the skills from the other trees for Aim, crit, alacrity, etc to take both, but have all heals be weaker. Now you can fill either role, but not as well. That is choice. Med Zone vs Treated Wound Dressing? Illusion of choice.

[SW_display_name]

Why do you have to resort to pettiness like "fanboy nerdrage" when I'm addressing your arguments in a completely patient and cogent manner? Not helpful. I really don't understand your aggressiveness about this.

 

I also have to sort-of point out your insult is more than mildly ironic.

 

Finally, I'm increasingly confused what this has to do with the OP of this thread or the assertion that Frontline Medic is frustrating because it's an enforced elective.

 

Med Zone vs Treated Wound Dressing? Illusion of choice.

No... that... would be an actual choice, between consistent small reduced damage vs. situational huge reduced damage (effectively, assuming constant healing).

 

Just because you consider a choice trivial and irrelevant, doesn't mean it's not an actual choice. It also doesn't mean that someone else who does value the ability to choose between perks is wrong, or lacks understanding. And it certainly doesn't mean you have to belittle and condescend me because I disagree and provide valid reasons for doing so.

Edited May 28, 2013 by SW_display_name

[RuQu]

Why do you have to resort to pettiness like "fanboy nerdrage" when I'm addressing your arguments in a completely patient and cogent manner? Not helpful. I really don't understand your aggressiveness about this.

 

I also have to sort-of point out your insult is more than mildly ironic.

 

Finally, I'm increasingly confused what this has to do with the OP of this thread or the assertion that Frontline Medic is frustrating because it's an enforced elective.

 

No... that... would be an actual choice, between consistent small reduced damage vs. situational huge reduced damage (effectively, assuming constant healing).

 

Just because you consider a choice trivial and irrelevant, doesn't mean it's not an actual choice. It also doesn't mean that someone else who does value the ability to choose between perks is wrong, or lacks understanding. And it certainly doesn't mean you have to belittle and condescend me because I disagree and provide valid reasons for doing so.

 

It's a roughly 4% drop either way. Do you want it on a plate or on a bowl? Either way, you have to take a 4% decrease in the healing you require in order to get to the cookie of the next tier. Neither choice changes anything substantial about your gameplay. If you are actually using Reactive Shield regularly to decrease damage taken, it actually changes NOTHING about your gameplay. If you often forget that button is there, then you probably took the flat 4% anyway, and again no change.

 

You are still the same person when you put on a hat. Dressing it up doesn't make a DR ability a real choice. You will still play a Combat Medic exactly the same way. That was determined the moment you said "I want to heal as a Trooper." Nothing after that was a choice.