SWTOR is a Veiled Pay2Win game

[Reno_Tarshil]

I dont think that debateing my opinion demeans it, because its based in logic and a incongruency in your arguement.

 

You receive rewards from completeing a boss fight. To even actually engage this boss, a player must either subscribe, or buy an operations pass. A baseline investment, if you will.

 

If you can receive the rewards offered to all players equally just by paying the baseline investment, you are in a health MMO.

 

If some players can actually attain the rewards from operations, an ADVANTAGE, by paying more money, you have moved into a pay to win enviorment.

 

This logic is not simple?

 

But no one is obtaining the rewards from Operations by paying real money.

[LordArtemis]

I dont think that debateing my opinion demeans it, because its based in logic and a incongruency in your arguement.

 

You receive rewards from completeing a boss fight. To even actually engage this boss, a player must either subscribe, or buy an operations pass. A baseline investment, if you will.

 

If you can receive the rewards offered to all players equally just by paying the baseline investment, you are in a health MMO.

 

If some players can actually attain the rewards from operations, an ADVANTAGE, by paying more money, you have moved into a pay to win enviorment.

 

This logic is not simple?

 

So not only did you express your opinion, but you are going to require me and others to agree to (what I believe is) your narrow definition or you are going to paint their opinions as incredulous?

 

Do you not see the lack of logic in that entire premise? Do you have to be correct? Do you desire conflict? This really has me puzzled.

 

I have attempted to show respect for you and your opinion. But I would need you to also respect yourself and your opinion in kind. You seem to be bent on doing the exact opposite.

 

If you require this agreement to further the discussion than I have no need to continue participating in what I see as a fruitless enterprise with you...and I hope that doesn't offend you. I do not have any ill intent when I say that...I just think its an unproductive exercise.

Edited May 24, 2013 by LordArtemis

[CenturioXIV]

must just be me but what do I care if someone can buy better gear with cash? I wouldn't even mind if they would sell Underworld gear in the CM.

 

Doesn't affectt me if someone else can kill mobs faster or do harder content or has better PVE stats. How does that win them anything or how does that lose me anything? So someone buys xp boosts from the cm, or is "winning" time also P2W?

 

The only thing I would have an issue with is if they would sell better pvp gear that is unavailable through normal gameplay.

 

just my opinion...

Edited May 24, 2013 by CenturioXIV

[ScarletBlaze]

I disagree. I do not see this as a P2W as there is nothing in the cartel shop that is something that is needed for me to progress. I have guild members that can craft purple, mods, armoring, etc that is needed for me to progress. None of that cost me r/l money period.

 

As far as the outfits if I see something on the GTN I like I use my in game credits to purchase it.

 

I don't buy cartel coins. I use the ones I get for being a subscriber as there is really nothing I need on there.

 

Have a good day.

Edited May 24, 2013 by ScarletBlaze

[Eshmael]

With the increment of crafting mods to tier 31 (allowing automatic progression to NIM) the game has yet again become veiled P2W.

 

Heres How.

 

Step 1: Get a crewskill

Step 2: Sell something you made using skill from (1)

Step 3: Post items on GTN

Step 4: Recieve your Money

Step 5: Buy gear that allows you to go into any instance

Step 6: Clear hardest content in game while skipping 99% of other content.

 

End Result PAY TO WIN

 

(i would be fine with it staying at 30's)

 

*Credit of theory to dude in another thread of mine*

 

FYP

Or you could just do some FPs buy one Underworld yourself, RE it and make even more money...

[Talsalus]

Pay to win isnt nessisarily just an advantage over normal subscribers, paying to have any PROGRESS in game is Pay to win. Otherwise the game devolves into, appease the rich man because he's rich. EA is no longer an equal oppotunity endeavor. It discriminates against people who cant afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month.

 

While I hate the CM, progress is not pay to win. As long as BIS gear is not purchasable on the CM then this game is not pay to win. Your definition of P2W makes even games like GW2 P2W (convert gems into gold). Although players are able to sell CM items on the GTN and make some money, they are still not able to compete with top tier gear that you have to grind for.

[LordArtemis]

I can count the healthy subscription based MMOs on one hand.

 

Here is a tidbit to think about....

 

“It’s important to note that the nature of online games has changed,” said Kotick, “and with the environment becoming far more competitive, especially with free-to-play games. To address this, we’re working to release new content more frequently to keep our players engaged longer and make it easier for lapsed players to come back into the game.” - Activision Blizzard chief Bobby Kotick

 

And I bit more....

 

As EA and BioWare learned quite painfully, a subscriber-based MMO is a tough sell in today’s market.

 

Star Wars: The Old Republic quickly moved to a free-to-play model months after the game was released, as rapidly dwindling subscriber numbers spelled doom for the game’s original subscirbe-to-play model.

 

Free-to-play is on the rise across the video game industry, but especially in multiplayer-based online games.

 

This includes MMORPGs like the recently soft-launched MMO, Neverwinter, from Cryptic Studios, as well as non-MMO competitive games such as indie mech title Hawken and upcoming Crytek shooter, Warface.

 

In fact, according to Crytek boss Cevat Yerli, all future Crytek games will be free-to-play.

 

I’ve spoken with developers from each of these games, and the growing consensus is clear: for a certain type of online gaming experience, free-to-play (F2P) is the way forward. But it won’t be easy.

 

The trick is balance, fairness, and maintaining a game’s user base when every alternative out there is just as free. Unlike a subscription model, F2P players have no initial buy-in to keep them playing, no nagging guilt over not making use of that monthly fee. On the other hand, F2P represents a much lower barrier to entry for new players. - Erik Kane - Read the full source article here

Edited May 24, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Spatology]

I dont have a problem with people playing the game as they want. Its not my issue here.

 

Actions like these further devalue the subscription that is still intact for some reason...

[Spatology]

Like linking articles written by industry reps who get checks from these companies makes the transition they are trying to pass off on people less criminal.

 

This game has become a laughing stock, even to biodrone/starwars fanbois. I know, i was one of both.

[JimG]

Step 1: Do dailies.

Step 2: Do more dailies.

Step 3: Do even more dailies.

Step 4: Recieve your Money and comms.

Step 5: Buy gear that allows you to go into any instance

Step 6: Clear hardest content in game while skipping 99% of other content.

 

There. Fixed it for you so that you can take that hard earned real life money and have a nice dinner with the wife.

 

No, no. You don't have to thank me. This one's on the house.

 

LOL, so true. People can grind credits so easily in this game if they want to just buy the best mods.

[Guthlac]

The gear is NOT the Win, the gear is the reward. The Win is the kill, that codex/achievement that says you downed Nightmare terror from beyond. Sure you can buy your gear, and hang around the fleet like a big shot, but if you want the kill your going to have to run HM Terror a dozen times before you'll be on my Ops team. Having the gear doesn't mean you are capable of winning a damn thing.

[jedimasterjac]

I agree

 

You buy CC with real money, buy stuff off market, sell that stuff on market, get in game credits..buy mods and armorings for in game credits on gtn

 

No. That does not make it Pay to Win. These mods are accessible without paying money. (Just as easily, honestly, if you sell thru crew skills.) Pay to Win means selling exclusively payed items (payed with real money) to give players an unfair advantage.

 

Armors in the CM come with no mods inside.

 

Selling items on GTN is no different than selling nice drops-- you still only buy mods and armorings through GTN that have already been made accessible to players who did not gain credits through selling CM items.

 

While selling CM items gives a slight ADVANTAGE, it is NOT pay to win.

[Aziran]

Hmmmm...

 

I've made 14.000,000 credits on my warrior who's barely 22 by selling Unlocks.

 

-Strong enemies often trounce me if I'm not questing with my girlfriend.

-I'm hardly doing the greatest amount of damage.

-I spend all my Planetary Comms on Mods for my Valiant Jedi CM Armor, which barely do anything and still get outclassed by greens

-I tried PvP once and barely did anything.

 

So. I have an abundance of money. Big whoop. I'm not an insta-level 55. I'm not hauling *** in FPs. I'll likely never outclass or outgear an Op-geared Juggernaut.

 

The only "Win" I get is that I can afford...Oh yeah, Rare Vanity stuff from the CM and more Mods which help keep the economy turning on the GTN.

 

-Throws Credits-

[Draekos]

Grind credits all day, buy endgame mods. Same deal as buying CM crap to sell on the GTN, just better suited to the unemployed. To each there own. Edited May 25, 2013 by Draekos

[AshlaBoga]

I'm fine with the sub-tier below BiS being Operations only. The OP doesn't seem to get that people who can clear NiM TFB and S+V already have full 72 with set bonus because they have the skill and time required. Anyone who couldn't clear HM TFB and S+V prior to 2.2 is not going to be able to magically clear NiM TFB just because they can buy a set of 72s without the set bonus.

 

The OP strikes me as one of those people who thinks that just because in 1.7 you could buy a set of 63s and then put it into Tionese shells for a set bonus, that you could magically get your Warstalker title even if you'd been struggling with HM TFB:rolleyes:

 

<Sarcasm>Prior to 2.0 I could just buy a set of Hazmat mods, plop those into a Tionese shell and then faceroll NiM EC an hour after hitting level 50. Heck, once you bought the gear you could just 6 man NiM EC like it was nothing</sarcasm>

TLDR: If you couldn't clear HM S+V in full 69s you're not going to be able to clear NIM S+V in full 72s so anyone who struggled with HM won't be clearing NiM regardless of how much $$$ they spend.

[WillHolmes]

Yeah, the entire fallacy to the OPs argument rests in the assumption that the only way to credits in this game is CM-2-GTN. There are so many better and more efficient ways to earn credits in this game. CM-2-GTN is one of the worst of choices.

 

But, having followed his posts all morning.. his real issue is he does not want anyone to get the best end game PvE gear in this game unless they grind OPs for it. Which is funny, because that is basically what the 2.0 change in direction by the devs has done. The best gear will always be drop only, OP only... or worst case drop recipe and mats from OP.

 

I never stated it was the only way to obtain the gear but P2W does not imply you can only progress from paying money. But at the simplest hint that you are able to pay money in any way in game to progress makes it pay 2 win. The fallacy lies in your assumptions and quite vauge understanding of the situation and literal definitions of the term Pay 2 Win

[WillHolmes]

I'm fine with the sub-tier below BiS being Operations only. The OP doesn't seem to get that people who can clear NiM TFB and S+V already have full 72 with set bonus because they have the skill and time required. Anyone who couldn't clear HM TFB and S+V prior to 2.2 is not going to be able to magically clear NiM TFB just because they can buy a set of 72s without the set bonus.

 

The OP strikes me as one of those people who thinks that just because in 1.7 you could buy a set of 63s and then put it into Tionese shells for a set bonus, that you could magically get your Warstalker title even if you'd been struggling with HM TFB:rolleyes:

 

<Sarcasm>Prior to 2.0 I could just buy a set of Hazmat mods, plop those into a Tionese shell and then faceroll NiM EC an hour after hitting level 50. Heck, once you bought the gear you could just 6 man NiM EC like it was nothing</sarcasm>

TLDR: If you couldn't clear HM S+V in full 69s you're not going to be able to clear NIM S+V in full 72s so anyone who struggled with HM won't be clearing NiM regardless of how much $$$ they spend.

 

The point here is P2W not what you can accomplish with gear stay on topic and point at OP and make judgments has no benifits to a remote discussion.

 

"The OP strikes me as one of those people who thinks that just because in 1.7 you could buy a set of 63s and then put it into Tionese shells for a set bonus, that you could magically get your Warstalker title even if you'd been struggling with HM TFB:rolleyes" - nope not slightly its the subconcious thought that people think they can then wipe us endlessly

 

The OP doesn't seem to get that people who can clear NiM TFB and S+V already have full 72

- how the heck would you know if they can in 72's the content has not been released

 

If you couldn't clear HM S+V in full 69s you're not going to be able to clear NIM S+V in full 72s so anyone who struggled with HM won't be clearing NiM regardless of how much $$$ they spend

- again thats not remotely the point of this post ... but yes i agree ... none the less if u can pay money in game and in any way turn that into gear its Pay 2 Win. Now not many people can do that it more caters to the rich but none the less its pay to win.

[fleshtaker]

You can't, that's why OPs argument isn't really valid. It was slightly more valid pre-2.0 where endgame was craftable, but not more more.

 

If you bothered to read anything you would know that underworld gear will be craftable after 2.2 that's why hes saying its a p2win formula (I don't agree or disagree but flaming someone when you havnt even bothered to read makes you look dumb)

[fleshtaker]

I'm fine with the sub-tier below BiS being Operations only. The OP doesn't seem to get that people who can clear NiM TFB and S+V already have full 72 with set bonus because they have the skill and time required. Anyone who couldn't clear HM TFB and S+V prior to 2.2 is not going to be able to magically clear NiM TFB just because they can buy a set of 72s without the set bonus.

 

The OP strikes me as one of those people who thinks that just because in 1.7 you could buy a set of 63s and then put it into Tionese shells for a set bonus, that you could magically get your Warstalker title even if you'd been struggling with HM TFB:rolleyes:

 

<Sarcasm>Prior to 2.0 I could just buy a set of Hazmat mods, plop those into a Tionese shell and then faceroll NiM EC an hour after hitting level 50. Heck, once you bought the gear you could just 6 man NiM EC like it was nothing</sarcasm>

TLDR: If you couldn't clear HM S+V in full 69s you're not going to be able to clear NIM S+V in full 72s so anyone who struggled with HM won't be clearing NiM regardless of how much $$$ they spend.

 

hmm you lost me when you said ' because they have the skill "' im sorry but since when does watching a video and wiping a few times to learn it in game take any form of skill? the pve in this game is casual at best no skill needed

Edited May 25, 2013 by fleshtaker

[WillHolmes]

The gear is NOT the Win, the gear is the reward. The Win is the kill, that codex/achievement that says you downed Nightmare terror from beyond. Sure you can buy your gear, and hang around the fleet like a big shot, but if you want the kill your going to have to run HM Terror a dozen times before you'll be on my Ops team. Having the gear doesn't mean you are capable of winning a damn thing.

 

But you can still obtain the gear through conversion of real $$. They give you the abillity to Win but thats on Your end the arguement is not changed by the fact someone manages the win or not its the fact of how they obtained the gear to try.

[WillHolmes]

Step 1: Do dailies.

Step 2: Do more dailies.

Step 3: Do even more dailies.

Step 4: Recieve your Money and comms.

Step 5: Buy gear that allows you to go into any instance

Step 6: Clear hardest content in game while skipping 99% of other content.

 

There. Fixed it for you so that you can take that hard earned real life money and have a nice dinner with the wife.

 

No, no. You don't have to thank me. This one's on the house.

 

another useless comment ignoring the fact that noone stated P2W is the only way to obtain the gear, its the sheer abillity to do it.

[WillHolmes]

I disagree. I do not see this as a P2W as there is nothing in the cartel shop that is something that is needed for me to progress. I have guild members that can craft purple, mods, armoring, etc that is needed for me to progress. None of that cost me r/l money period.

 

As far as the outfits if I see something on the GTN I like I use my in game credits to purchase it.

 

I don't buy cartel coins. I use the ones I get for being a subscriber as there is really nothing I need on there.

 

Have a good day.

 

again another one noone said its the ONLY way to obtain the gear but that does not change the fact you CAN

[lorelthesecond]

Go play Rift on June the 12 then you will see a real pay to win game.

[aeterno]

Via this logic every game that has some form of cash shop and meaningful crafted gear is p2w as you can buy credits to pay crafters for the good gear.

 

To broad a definition imo. Take one more step and WoW is p2w cos you can hire a Chinese dude to level you up and get you some gear. I mean you payed, p2w.

 

P2w in my view is relevant endgame items being sold directly in the cash shop by the developer.

Edited May 25, 2013 by aeterno

[Pernicia]

Im reading these posts and 90% of you are completely completely ignoring what Pay 2 Win is and attempting to cater the defintion to your arguements.

 

...snip...

 

Pay 2 Win means being able to use my real life money to somehow better myself in the game whether directly or as i said through a use of in game mechanics to convert $$ into gear.

 

I sincerely appreciate the way you've summed up the gaping hole in your own logic. Thank you.