hippiechick Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) Pay to Win isnt just end game items. IMO the experience boosts (this isnt the only game that has them and I dont play those either) are P2W. ANYthing that gives you an advantage over someone else who doesnt buy it is P2W. M Edit for clarification: The saving grace for the exp boosts is that you can also get them in game. However, IMO they are still P2W or at least Pay to Advance, and I dont like it. The only things in a cash shop that I can get behind are fluff. Mounts, pets, cool looking gear, yes. Exp/rep boosts? No. M Edited May 24, 2013 by hippiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Pay to win isnt nessisarily just an advantage over normal subscribers, paying to have any PROGRESS in game is Pay to win. Otherwise the game devolves into, appease the rich man because he's rich. EA is no longer an equal oppotunity endeavor. It discriminates against people who cant afford to spend hundreds of dollars a month. incase you missed it, lemme reitterate. If i dont spend any money on the CM, i have to grind flashpoints for weeks, or, be in an operation guild and farm out an entire set for myself. If i spend money, i can buy all the mods, RE them, and craft a full set of gear for myself in one day. WELCOME TO PAY TO WIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiechick Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 (edited) incase you missed it, lemme reitterate. If i dont spend any money on the CM, i have to grind flashpoints for weeks, or, be in an operation guild and farm out an entire set for myself. If i spend money, i can buy all the mods, RE them, and craft a full set of gear for myself in one day. WELCOME TO PAY TO WIN. It doesnt even take that much deep thought to realize that this is P2W now and the trail they are blazing for the future is leading right into some serious type P2W. They are using little things, and debatable things, to lull people into it. By the time they offer actual end game gear people will be so brain washed they will STILL argue that it isnt pay to win or pay to advance. /shrug M Edited May 24, 2013 by hippiechick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waterboytkd Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 incase you missed it, lemme reitterate. If i dont spend any money on the CM, i have to grind flashpoints for weeks, or, be in an operation guild and farm out an entire set for myself. If i spend money, i can buy all the mods, RE them, and craft a full set of gear for myself in one day. WELCOME TO PAY TO WIN. So.......do I actually have to buy stuff on the Cartel Market and sell it on the GTN in order to buy mods off the GTN? Can I only use credits earned from the CM to buy those mods? No? Hmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 So.......do I actually have to buy stuff on the Cartel Market and sell it on the GTN in order to buy mods off the GTN? Can I only use credits earned from the CM to buy those mods? No? Hmmm.... Yeah, the entire fallacy to the OPs argument rests in the assumption that the only way to credits in this game is CM-2-GTN. There are so many better and more efficient ways to earn credits in this game. CM-2-GTN is one of the worst of choices. But, having followed his posts all morning.. his real issue is he does not want anyone to get the best end game PvE gear in this game unless they grind OPs for it. Which is funny, because that is basically what the 2.0 change in direction by the devs has done. The best gear will always be drop only, OP only... or worst case drop recipe and mats from OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 So.......do I actually have to buy stuff on the Cartel Market and sell it on the GTN in order to buy mods off the GTN? Can I only use credits earned from the CM to buy those mods? No? Hmmm.... Uh, yes, you can? i dont understand what you are pointing out... You can 100% atm buy stuff off the CM, liquidate it on the GTM to credits, and turn around and buy 69 mods. Bioware is suggesting bumbing the craftable mods to 72's. Higher then the gear which drops in flashpoints and other content that can be accomplished with little to no effort. This is further comprimiseing the value of a subscription to do operations by making the rewards of said operations accessible without doing said operations. Why not just buy all the cool stuff of the CM, sell some of it and get my 72 mods. Then hang out in the fleet since i now out gear most content available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 I do believe the definition of pay of win is where you have no choice but to pay RL money in order to advance or be competitive in a game. Now, I don't think I am mistaken about that. To be clear, this is my definition....Generally the term P2W is when you pay money to get advantages that non paying players cannot overcome. Do I know what you meant? Yes. Your saying that paying to get things that others have to work hard for is not fair. I get that point and hear you. That's not pay to win...thats pay for reward. There is a huge difference between a "pay for reward" and a "pay to win" model. Pay for reward is where you can pay RL money for a shortcut to higher performance and rewards that others would have to work hard for, invest large amounts of time if they do not use the same route. So the argument would be that this game has become pay to reward or P2R. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion in progress... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 I do believe the definition of pay of win is where you have no choice but to pay RL money in order to advance or be competitive in a game. Now, I don't think I am mistaken about that. To be clear, this is my definition....Generally the term P2W is when you pay money to get advantages that non paying players cannot overcome. Do I know what you meant? Yes. Your saying that paying to get things that others have to work hard for is not fair. I get that point and hear you. That's not pay to win...thats pay for reward. There is a huge difference between a "pay for reward" and a "pay to win" model. Pay for reward is where you can pay RL money for a shortcut to higher performance and rewards that others would have to work hard for, invest large amounts of time if they do not use the same route. So the argument would be that this game has become pay to reward or P2R. Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion in progress... You are wrong, plain and simple. You are mistake about the phrase pay to win. If you can pay money, to beat content, or receive the reward the content yeilds, you are paying to win. PERIOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippiechick Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Pay to win also means that there is an advantage gained by paying real money for it. For example, say the best boots in the game were available at the cash shop but also available from some end game mob. It would still be pay to win because you can simply go buy them right now, no effort or time put in, at the cash shop but to get them in game you have to repeatedly kill said end game boss, hope it drops, hope you win it, while battling a lock out timer. So no, it is not ONLY if it is ONLY available on the cash shop. The rank 7 ship upgrades are a good example of this. Even though it doesnt give you an advantage for your character it DOES give you an advantage for getting the space achievements. (This assumes that they havent changed the amount of time/effort it took to get these in game when they were first released. I dont know, I havent checked into them lately). M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelCawdro Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 You are wrong, plain and simple. You are mistake about the phrase pay to win. If you can pay money, to beat content, or receive the reward the content yeilds, you are paying to win. PERIOD. You are creating your own definition for the purposes of this thread and rejecting the one that has been accepted since the inception of the model. This isn't an "opinion" issue, and even if it were, some opinions are much more well-supported, and thus legitimate, than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radzkie Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 If they made the top two tiers of gear uncraftable, wouldn't that make their content last longer? And actually make it feel like progression gearing to newer players? I thought that's what the devs wanted... you know, what with the com caps and everything. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Just because an advantage isnt the GREATEST advantage, doesnt mean it isnt still an advantage. I dont understand where you people get that it has to be the BIS armor to be P2W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWScissors Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Just because an advantage isnt the GREATEST advantage, doesnt mean it isnt still an advantage. I dont understand where you people get that it has to be the BIS armor to be P2W. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1182687-How-do-you-define-quot-Pay-to-Win-quot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Just because an advantage isnt the GREATEST advantage, doesnt mean it isnt still an advantage. By this definition, paying a subscription and loging in to the game is P2W. Sorry pal... but Pay-2-Win does have a generally and broadly accepted definition in the genre. You can use any definition you want of course.. but do not expect to be taken seriously when you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 You are wrong, plain and simple. You are mistake about the phrase pay to win. If you can pay money, to beat content, or receive the reward the content yeilds, you are paying to win. PERIOD. I hate to tell you this, but if your being that direct it is in fact you that is wrong with your definition...or more accurately you that is defining it in a very narrow viewpoint, and an uncommon one to boot. The particulars are debatable. But one theme seems to be common, or most common, across all definitions... You pay to get an advantage over another player that that player cannot overcome without paying themselves, or something that gives you an advantage over other players that you have to pay for..not obtainable by in game means. A simple cursory search across the net will stand in evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 You are creating your own definition for the purposes of this thread and rejecting the one that has been accepted since the inception of the model. This isn't an "opinion" issue, and even if it were, some opinions are much more well-supported, and thus legitimate, than others. Absolutely not, for completeing content you receive rewards. If you can receive rewards without completeing the content through paying money, you are paying to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Ok, lets try this. Is it really that important that the words "pay to win" fall in here? I mean, if we call it "pay to eat cake since pie is a lie", does that change the absolute fact that you can pay real money to get items you would have to work very hard for in game? I can pump out cash and outfit my character pretty well. There is no denying that fact. I have done it. I am happy that I have done it. I will not try to state otherwise. The concern seems to be that I can do this. I don't see that as an invalid concern. I can understand why some folks might feel this cheapens the game for them, why it's unfair to those that can not afford to do so. I'd like to discuss how I feel about it, but the argument over the meaning of P2W is over for me. I will not argue that point further. There is no purpose to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 I hate to tell you this, but if your being that direct it is in fact you that is wrong with your definition...or more accurately you that is defining it in a very narrow viewpoint, and an uncommon one to boot. The particulars are debatable. But one theme seems to be common, or most common, across all definitions... You pay to get an advantage over another player that that player cannot overcome without paying themselves, or something that gives you an advantage over other players that you have to pay for..not obtainable by in game means. A simple cursory search across the net will stand in evidence. This is the definition of PAY 2 WIN in a game that comes strictly from a free to play enviorment and moves forward into offering rewards for people who acutally pay money. In an effort to increase revenue. Like a facebook game or something. This ISNT the definition a pay to win scenario in which people are paying to PLAY content and receive the rewards from doing said content. While others who pay MORE money can receive the same benefit without doing the content at all. Two very diffrent situations here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_of_Mu Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 You should try Star Trek Online. Buy Zen, Buy +1 Starship. Have clear advantage over everyone else. I don't see any of that in SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 This is the definition of PAY 2 WIN in a game that comes strictly from a free to play enviorment and moves forward into offering rewards for people who acutally pay money. In an effort to increase revenue. Like a facebook game or something. This ISNT the definition a pay to win scenario in which people are paying to PLAY content and receive the rewards from doing said content. While others who pay MORE money can receive the same benefit without doing the content at all. Two very diffrent situations here. Look, again, for the sake of peace in this thread I am not going to debate this further with you. I think that demeans your opinion, and I don't want to do that. We simply do not agree on that one point and I think that's fine. There is room for more than one definition. That is what it means to you. That's fine by me. I think we should move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Ive played both models and understand both mechanics as a way to enjoy profits. Bioware cant offer both cosmetics and performance on the CM. Well, they can, but if so........this game is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Its a glorified chatroom with avatars who can play dress up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spatology Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 I dont think that debateing my opinion demeans it, because its based in logic and a incongruency in your arguement. You receive rewards from completeing a boss fight. To even actually engage this boss, a player must either subscribe, or buy an operations pass. A baseline investment, if you will. If you can receive the rewards offered to all players equally just by paying the baseline investment, you are in a health MMO. If some players can actually attain the rewards from operations, an ADVANTAGE, by paying more money, you have moved into a pay to win enviorment. This logic is not simple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radzkie Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Its a glorified chatroom with avatars who can play dress up. I'm cool with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Well, if your ready to move on, I would like to discuss why I think the model being used in the current game...Ill call it P2W if you really want or need me to so we can continue the discussion....is a good one for the long term health and well being of the game. I intend to call the following witnesses to the stand.... Former state of the game at launch up to just prior to the F2P launch Subscriber metrics and known public polls as well as released Bioware statements on why people left Current public statements made by Bioware as well as notable public statements and studies conducted or reported by industry leaders and authors/experts on the F2P market model If time permits I will also call my own personal experiences to the stand. I swear, to the best of my ability it will the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me mighty cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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