DEVS: What does "unlimited access to all game features" mean?

[DarthTHC]

All I'm saying is that the customization and dye packs fall under customization, which was clearly stated as a cartel market thing. It's really not earth-shattering to see that it is in the cartel market.

 

Yes, the dye packs are items.

 

The kiosk is a game feature, for which the executive producer of the game set our expectation of unlimited access.

 

It is not earth-shattering, except for the fact that the game's actions now mismatch the executive producer's words. Whenever that happens, I like to understand why. It's a big deal to me. It's a warning sign of dishonesty. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying I want an explanation.

[DarthTHC]

Are you saying that you should be able to create 3,1337 character per server? Or that you should be able to list four million items on the GTN? Or that you should be given enough credits to buy every single item in the game?

 

I'm saying that the Kiosk is a game feature to which subscribers do not have unlimited access, and that action mismatches Jeff Hickman's statement.

 

I'm saying actions do not match words and I think that principle is a big enough deal that we deserve an explanation.

[kirorx]

New species, new customization options and Makeb as cartel purchases, fine.

 

Using the character editor to change eye color, should have a credit option IMO

[MadBlue]

I don't see anything in that blog that says "you'll have unlimited access to all game features except the game features we choose to implement via cartel market to which you'll have limited access."

What part of "You don't get to interpret meaning by picking and choosing what information is correct and hold the developers accountable" did you not get?

 

You are the one interpreting it to mean something that it doesn't mean, not the developers.

[DarthTHC]

What do you propose as a solution to the problem then?

 

snip snip

 

The forums are always complaining about how the devs never share their plans. At the same time, they blast the devs, calling them idiots, stupid, incompetent, and even criminals for failing to deliver on any statement they make, even if that statement was explicitly labeled as a plan or a preliminary schedule. We want plans, but we have zero tolerance for the fact that plans change. What are the devs supposed to do to make us happy?

 

I'm not proposing a solution or even saying one is needed. I'm asking for an explanation.

 

The devs are supposed to ensure their actions match their words. If they're about to take an action that goes against the most recently set expectation, they should reset the expectation. If they fail to do that in time and the action occurs before the expectation is reset, they should own up to it, apologize for it, and do whatever they feel is the right thing to correct the situation.

[JediJonesJr]

More CM tears?

 

You guys really need jobs.

 

Looooooser!

[DarthTHC]

What part of "You don't get to interpret meaning by picking and choosing what information is correct and hold the developers accountable" did you not get?

 

You are the one interpreting it to mean something that it doesn't mean, not the developers.

 

I'm sorry, but it's really hard to misinterpret the word, "unlimited" for me. I've been a native English speaker for over 40 years. I clearly understand what the word means.

 

Now if there was a verbal expectation reset that changed Mr. Hickman's "unlimited access to all game features" in the time since July 2012, I will happily bow out of this discussion and apologize. But I can't find one.

 

All I can find is this latest patch, an action, that is contrary to that statement.

[jamesvasquez]

Yes, the dye packs are items.

 

The kiosk is a game feature, for which the executive producer of the game set our expectation of unlimited access.

 

It is not earth-shattering, except for the fact that the game's actions now mismatch the executive producer's words. Whenever that happens, I like to understand why. It's a big deal to me. It's a warning sign of dishonesty. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying I want an explanation.

 

The kiosk may be a game feature, but it's a customization. One that has no effect on gameplay. Much like the Cathar. Therefore, it makes sense for it to be a cartel market exclusive. You still have unlimited access to everything that does impact gameplay. Wanna run the same hard mode flashpoint for 24 hours straight? You absolutely can. Wanna run warzones till your eyes bleed? Go right ahead. Wanna do some operations? Space missions? Unlimited access to all. If customization impacted gameplay at all, I would understand being upset. It doesn't. Therefore, it is not important enough to get upset over. When you start getting told that you can't do things in-game that will actually have an impact, then I'll have reason to agree with you. Until then, I'm afraid I don't. I still want to see if the Devs will respond at all, though I doubt it.

[PlasmaJohn]

All I'm saying is that the customization and dye packs fall under customization, which was clearly stated as a cartel market thing. It's really not earth-shattering to see that it is in the cartel market.

I thought they said "vanity" was the threshold where a feature becomes a Cartel Market exclusive. Setting that bar to

"Customization" opens the door for EA to start charging CC's per choice during character creation and removing and adding mods. At least they see that as going too far (I hope).

 

Regardless, I think that threshold is silly, it should be "luxury" as in premium races, speeders, armors, cosmetic style unlocks (never consumable), etc.

[DarthTHC]

The kiosk may be a game feature, but it's a customization. One that has no effect on gameplay. Much like the Cathar. Therefore, it makes sense for it to be a cartel market exclusive. You still have unlimited access to everything that does impact gameplay. Wanna run the same hard mode flashpoint for 24 hours straight? You absolutely can. Wanna run warzones till your eyes bleed? Go right ahead. Wanna do some operations? Space missions? Unlimited access to all. If customization impacted gameplay at all, I would understand being upset. It doesn't. Therefore, it is not important enough to get upset over. When you start getting told that you can't do things in-game that will actually have an impact, then I'll have reason to agree with you. Until then, I'm afraid I don't. I still want to see if the Devs will respond at all, though I doubt it.

 

Again, Hickman didn't say "unlimited access to game features for gameplay but not for customization".

[MadBlue]

New species, new customization options and Makeb as cartel purchases, fine.

 

Using the character editor to change eye color, should have a credit option IMO

 

I agree with you, there. I think that things like hair style and color, etc, should have been made available with credits.

 

One thing to point out though is that people often point to LOTRO as a hybrid game that has a Cash Shop but has a barber shop that uses in-game currency rather than requiring the LOTRO equivalent of CC. To be fair, the barber shop was in the game long before the game offered F2P, so they couldn't exactly change that. I don't know how it is with other games that offer F2P as well as sub, but I would imagine that many of them that charge in-game currency for these kinds of changes already had that system in place before they went F2P.

[Lung_Tien_Lien]

What do you propose as a solution to the problem then?

 

Imagine this scenario: As a developer, I have plans to release some cool feature in six months. I ask PR if I'm allowed to mention it. They say "Sure." A day later, in an interview, someone asks if there is anything new coming. I have two choices:

 

#1: I can tell them about the new planned feature

#2: I can say some evasive crap about how I'm always looking to add stuff and mention nothing in particular.

 

Now, in the scenario, three months later, I run into unexpected problems in a completely unrelated part of the project. I have to change priorities, move teams, reschedule testing, whatever. When the dust settles, I'm behind schedule by another three months.

 

This is a very realistic scenario and it happens quite often. Here is the problem. At the moment when I have to choose whether to mention my plans, I cannot see into the future. I don't know whether I'm going to have problems or if my corporation is going to be restructured or if some accountant is going to re-arrange my business model for me. If I take option #1, I can generate some buzz in the short term, but I'll also generate loads of backlash as people call me a liar when I push the release to 9 months. If I take option #2, people ignore my comment and at worst, complain that I never share information.

 

In a game-theory, cost-benefit analysis, which options is better really comes down to how much you value the buzz and how much you'll lose if something comes up and you can't deliver. If you have a community that shrugs off buzz but obsesses over negatives, then there's very little reason to choose option #1. It's the option I would want to choose, but the realist in me says that its not worth the risk. In my experience, the majority of my development plans change before they get implemented, and the majority of those changes are driven by things out of my control.

 

The forums are always complaining about how the devs never share their plans. At the same time, they blast the devs, calling them idiots, stupid, incompetent, and even criminals for failing to deliver on any statement they make, even if that statement was explicitly labeled as a plan or a preliminary schedule. We want plans, but we have zero tolerance for the fact that plans change. What are the devs supposed to do to make us happy?

 

They can't make everyone happy. What would make me personally happy? If they were honest about how certain they are about a feature.

 

In the scenario you described, I would like to see the dev tell everyone that they hope to implement feature XY. They can add what they expect it to be like, maybe how far along they are in terms of development and a rough estimate as to when we can expect it. To make the wording clear, they can add that the time could change, as well as the implementation, but their current plans are as described.

 

A couple of months later they could say that there were issues, because of coding/time/what have you, and that the way they're going to implement that feature is different now. They might also add why things are different. (I realize that often finances are a big reason and somehow it's a taboo to talk about them. I don't think that's a good thing, but I accept that that's how it is for now.)

 

I know this doesn't create us much hype as, "OMG LOOKIT GUYS AWESOME FEATURE" (Yes, exaggeration.), but it's the more honest approach. That's what would make me happy (and I suspect I wouldn't be the only one.).

 

There would still be people complaining when something changes, but nobody could ever claim they lied if they specified that things aren't set in stone yet.

[danielearley]

Yes, the dye packs are items.

 

The kiosk is a game feature, for which the executive producer of the game set our expectation of unlimited access.

 

It is not earth-shattering, except for the fact that the game's actions now mismatch the executive producer's words. Whenever that happens, I like to understand why. It's a big deal to me. It's a warning sign of dishonesty. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying I want an explanation.

 

I think you are twisting the words of the op, the Kiosk is just a portal into the Cartel Market to customise your toon.

 

The OP quite rightly pointed out that the original poster had cherry picked his sentence to fit his rant or maybe he didn't read the whole Blog which explained that Customisation of your toon would be via the Cartel Market.

 

Jeff has not contradicted himself as both sentences were on the same blog out lining what to expect in the future.

[DarthTHC]

I agree with you, there. I think that things like hair style and color, etc, should have been made available with credits.

 

One thing to point out though is that people often point to LOTRO as a hybrid game that has a Cash Shop but has a barber shop that uses in-game currency rather than requiring the LOTRO equivalent of CC. To be fair, the barber shop was in the game long before the game offered F2P, so they couldn't exactly change that. I don't know how it is with other games that offer F2P as well as sub, but I would imagine that many of them that charge in-game currency for these kinds of changes already had that system in place before they went F2P.

 

This is all good info, but there are a crapton of threads discussing options for implementing these features.

 

I'd really like to try to stay on topic in this one, which is why has the latest patch gone against the expectations set by the executive producer.

[iamthehoyden]

I'm saying that the Kiosk is a game feature to which subscribers do not have unlimited access, and that action mismatches Jeff Hickman's statement.

 

I'm saying actions do not match words and I think that principle is a big enough deal that we deserve an explanation.

The kiosk is definitely the sore point in this update for me. The rest of what's irritating in this patch will be solved by time and people with RL money to burn. I've been fairly vocal on the subject, so I'll just add again that making these kiosk services untradeable between players was a stupid decision. I had few issues with the CM prior to this kiosk implementation because of the ability to trade items you bought off it in-game. It provided a sensible avenue for those who didn't want to spend ccs, cut gold sellers off at the knees, and made the company more money (which would hopefully translate into a richer gaming experience).

 

That said, I'm wondering if "unlimited game features" refers more to the items that are completely unavailable to f2p. Things like limits on credits, getting lock boxes, and so forth. It could be argued that the kiosk is "unlimited" in the sense that you can use it...as long as you have money, while there are aspects of playing as f2p that are absolutely limited. That kind of argument is disingenuous in my opinion, but it's possible that's what they meant. Clarification would be welcome.

[PlasmaJohn]

The kiosk may be a game feature, but it's a customization. One that has no effect on gameplay.

Patently false, it's a core RP feature. Now one of the four Bartle types has their update stuck behind a paywall. Who next? Will crafters need to buy gamble boxes full of mats? WIll PVP'er's need to buy weekly passes? Will we have to pony up CC's just to land on planets?

[DarthTHC]

I think you are twisting the words of the op, the Kiosk is just a portal into the Cartel Market to customise your toon.

 

The OP quite rightly pointed out that the original poster had cherry picked his sentence to fit his rant or maybe he didn't read the whole Blog which explained that Customisation of your toon would be via the Cartel Market.

 

Jeff has not contradicted himself as both sentences were on the same blog out lining what to expect in the future.

 

But it didn't say that. It said that items to customize your look would be part of CM. And there've been items that do that throughout the life of the CM and they still exist and that is not what I asked about.

 

What I asked about is this new game feature that is not an item that has now placed a limit on subscriber access to all game features, contrary to what Jeff Hickman said would happen.

[TUXs]

I think you are twisting the words of the op, the Kiosk is just a portal into the Cartel Market to customise your toon.

The guy you quoted...he WAS the OP.

[jamesvasquez]

Again, Hickman didn't say "unlimited access to game features for gameplay but not for customization".

 

I still don't see your concern. This doesn't impact your gameplay at all. OMG I CAN'T GET MY NEW MIRALUKA TATTOOS WITHOUT PAYING A FEE!" I'm sorry. It must be really difficult to live in a world where not everything is free. Have you ever considered communism?

[TUXs]

Patently false, it's a core RP feature. Now one of the four Bartle types has their update stuck behind a paywall. Who next? Will crafters need to buy gamble boxes full of mats? WIll PVP'er's need to buy weekly passes? Will we have to pony up CC's just to land on planets?

 

This!!! I have no desire to use it, other than to screw around, but I am not simple minded enough to not be able to see how it impacts RPers. This feature could have easily become the most significant update/addition to RP ever in this game. It would have been the equivalent of Makeb, the GF, 5 Ops, 8 FPs, 5 WZ's all combined for RPers.

[Kilora]

I still don't see your concern. This doesn't impact your gameplay at all. OMG I CAN'T GET MY NEW MIRALUKA TATTOOS WITHOUT PAYING A FEE!" I'm sorry. It must be really difficult to live in a world where not everything is free. Have you ever considered communism?

 

Have you ever considered reading comprehension courses?

[TUXs]

I still don't see your concern. This doesn't impact your gameplay at all. OMG I CAN'T GET MY NEW MIRALUKA TATTOOS WITHOUT PAYING A FEE!" I'm sorry. It must be really difficult to live in a world where not everything is free. Have you ever considered communism?

 

Ah! So, as long as it doesn't impact him, he should shut up? You're the one trying to silence him, and you call HIM a communist? Holy flipping irony.

[DarthTHC]

I still don't see your concern. This doesn't impact your gameplay at all. OMG I CAN'T GET MY NEW MIRALUKA TATTOOS WITHOUT PAYING A FEE!" I'm sorry. It must be really difficult to live in a world where not everything is free. Have you ever considered communism?

 

My concern isn't for my gameplay. I've vigorously defended the prices in the patch. Go ahead and check my post history or ask Shingara. He'll tell you.

 

My concern is that the executive producer set an expectation to which the game's latest patch is contrary

 

I like to understand why actions mismatch words. It's a red flag for me.

[jamesvasquez]

Ah! So, as long as it doesn't impact him, he should shut up? You're the one trying to silence him, and you call HIM a communist? Holy flipping irony.

 

I didn't call him a communist, nor did I tell him to be silent. I merely stated that not everything is free, and since it's something that doesn't impact gameplay it shouldn't even be a concern. I suggested he TRY communism since he wants everything to be free. Considering that true communism involves just that, it seemed like a reasonable suggestion.

[DarthTHC]

And at this point, I'm pretty sure of two things. First, the community team is well aware of this thread and can and will and probably have done with it what they will. Second, further discussion on this topic probably won't be very productive. The intent of the request seems clear.

 

There are plenty of other threads on which to discuss the merits of 2.1's implementation and that's just not what this thread is about.

 

I'm going to go ahead and ask the community team to lock this thread.

 

Thanks for the discussion.