SunwindIon Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 OH BOY, HOW MANY TIMES I HEARD THIS ABOUT WARRIORS IN CATACLYSM!!! How many times!!! Bull. Something works, or not. This lvl 50 talk is getting old. L2P, lvl 50, bla bla bla... Everybody is having a nice time and we're sucking. True story. Just rest easy knowing that Bioware are good developers and regardless of all the people trying to pretend the class is fine, they will know better and be reading our feedback, i'm sure changes are in the pipeline already, it's one of the freaking *Jedi* classes in their flagship MMO that cost them tons of money, they're not just going to ignore it and leave it broken as hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Just rest easy knowing that Bioware are good developers and regardless of all the people trying to pretend the class is fine, they will know better and be reading our feedback, i'm sure changes are in the pipeline already, it's one of the freaking *Jedi* classes in their flagship MMO that cost them tons of money, they're not just going to ignore it and leave it broken as hell. Here is my opinion on that. BioWare made a mistake. This class under performs or at the very least requires a disproportionately high degree of skill to operate. This high degree of needed skill alienates the significant majority of the player base who might be interested in this class. The Jedi and Sith should never look weak, under any circumstances, in a Star Wars title. They are the flagship characters of the universe. Making the Jedi look bad or weak will result in Lucas Arts taking action, and I am sure BioWare is aware of this... Namely... Making the Jedi fan base angry will cost someone their job. (Ask Karen Traviss, another person who thought it was okay to make Jedi look poor.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollowVamp Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) OH BOY, HOW MANY TIMES I HEARD THIS ABOUT WARRIORS IN CATACLYSM!!! How many times!!! Bull. Something works, or not. This lvl 50 talk is getting old. L2P, lvl 50, bla bla bla... Everybody is having a nice time and we're sucking. True story. i run around 35-40 keybinds, go about 50+ kills and 4-7 deaths in warzones, its a good class, but its the only skill demanding one. well, HIGH skill demanding. Edited December 23, 2011 by HollowVamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mohrdeghast Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Why do people assume that all classes should be equally easy to play? I prefer that there be some balance to the POTENTIAL abilities of a class, but if some of the classes are harder to reach that potential in, then fine by me. For people who want to play Jedi, they have 4 options to choose from. One of the reasons I like sentinel so much is because it's challenging to play. And I've been kicking butt and taking names. I'm not saying the class doesn't have some issues that need worked out, but the sky isn't falling or anything. Some people just need to get a grip, or play a different class. Why are you married to a class you obviously don't like? It seems to me that only the most skilled of the Jedi warriors would be using 2 lightsabers, as the fighting style is inherently more difficult than others. I think it's fitting that the class is likewise more difficult to play. I'm fine with Bioware making some changes to tweak the class, but I really hope they don't make it easy to play. Some of us LIKE a challenge. If the game's too easy, it's not as much fun. Just my $0.02. If you hate sentinel so much, relax and reroll. lol Edited December 23, 2011 by Mohrdeghast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheReflection Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 So I heart that Sentinel was the "worst" class of them all, so I thought that it would be the least played Jedi class. Also, I love challenge in my games. In most MMOs, except DCUO, mobs will be just faceroll. At lvl 14 Focus Sentinel kicks major ***. if/when I run into problems with survevability I'll just spec into defensive talents and endurance gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shogunjedi Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Sentinel soloability sucks at level 30 , need to stop and meditate after every or every other fight. Dot tree is good for single elites , focus is good for everything else. Damage is fine but surviability is crap. Nevertheless i didnt want to play tank and i wanted lightsaber combat so i am gonna stick with it. Just hit 31 , waiting on Doc , heard he changes many things. Its not a bad class , could use some buffs , definately not a faceroll like others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Why do people assume that all classes should be equally easy to play? I prefer that there be some balance to the POTENTIAL abilities of a class, but if some of the classes are harder to reach that potential in, then fine by me. For people who want to play Jedi, they have 4 options to choose from. One of the reasons I like sentinel so much is because it's challenging to play. And I've been kicking butt and taking names. I'm not saying the class doesn't have some issues that need worked out, but the sky isn't falling or anything. Some people just need to get a grip, or play a different class. Why are you married to a class you obviously don't like? It seems to me that only the most skilled of the Jedi warriors would be using 2 lightsabers, as the fighting style is inherently more difficult than others. I think it's fitting that the class is likewise more difficult to play. I'm fine with Bioware making some changes to tweak the class, but I really hope they don't make it easy to play. Some of us LIKE a challenge. If the game's too easy, it's not as much fun. Just my $0.02. If you hate sentinel so much, relax and reroll. lol This is a self defeating argument. "If it is hard, don't play it. If it is harder than every other class that is okay." Is not a valid statement. Here is the thing... Yes, using 2 lightsabers, in the lore as you are trying to utilize to justify your argument here, is the hardest style. It is also the clear, unadulterated, hands down best style by leaps and bounds. We are getting the "hardest to use" part but we aren't getting the "better than everything else" part. Reward vs Difficulty. It is a little thing that is known as "Game Balance" and that is why people are angry. We like Jedi, and not all of us are sucking so hard as to be ineffective, I'm able to make it into the top 3 usually. The thing is I can make it into the top 3 with a Trooper, Shadow, Smuggler, etc way easier than I can do it as a Sentinel and that is a problem. As to why it needs to be worked out... Simple: In a Star Wars game it is okay for the Jedi and/or Sith to be better than non-Force Sensitive classes. In a Star Wars game it is okay for the Jedi and/or Sith to be equal to the non-Force Sensitive classes. In a Star Wars game it is not okay for the Jedi/Sith to be less than the non-Force Sensitive classes ever. All three of those statements are true. In TOR however that is clearly not the case. The Operative is a better melee class than the Jedi Sentinel. Save for the fact that the Operative has the same armor, survivability, and over five times as much utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunwindIon Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 This is a self defeating argument. "If it is hard, don't play it. If it is harder than every other class that is okay." Is not a valid statement. Here is the thing... Yes, using 2 lightsabers, in the lore as you are trying to utilize to justify your argument here, is the hardest style. It is also the clear, unadulterated, hands down best style by leaps and bounds. We are getting the "hardest to use" part but we aren't getting the "better than everything else" part. Reward vs Difficulty. It is a little thing that is known as "Game Balance" and that is why people are angry. We like Jedi, and not all of us are sucking so hard as to be ineffective, I'm able to make it into the top 3 usually. The thing is I can make it into the top 3 with a Trooper, Shadow, Smuggler, etc way easier than I can do it as a Sentinel and that is a problem. As to why it needs to be worked out... Simple: In a Star Wars game it is okay for the Jedi and/or Sith to be better than non-Force Sensitive classes. In a Star Wars game it is okay for the Jedi and/or Sith to be equal to the non-Force Sensitive classes. In a Star Wars game it is not okay for the Jedi/Sith to be less than the non-Force Sensitive classes ever. All three of those statements are true. In TOR however that is clearly not the case. The Operative is a better melee class than the Jedi Sentinel. Save for the fact that the Operative has the same armor, survivability, and over five times as much utility. I don't know how the "sentinel deniers" can read posts like this and still carry on with their fingers in their ears going "LA LA LA" and ignoring the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamzaBehoulve Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I don't know how the "sentinel deniers" can read posts like this and still carry on with their fingers in their ears going "LA LA LA" and ignoring the problems. You see, the issue is simple really. You seem to have problems, I don't have any. So, if the class was as broken as some people claim it to be, we'd have troubles as well. The only thing I find disappointing at the moment is the lack of scaling of the offhand lightsaber. Edited December 23, 2011 by RamzaBehoulve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaerion_H Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Originally Posted by ProfessorWalsh This is a self defeating argument. "If it is hard, don't play it. If it is harder than every other class that is okay." Is not a valid statement. Here is the thing... Yes, using 2 lightsabers, in the lore as you are trying to utilize to justify your argument here, is the hardest style. It is also the clear, unadulterated, hands down best style by leaps and bounds. We are getting the "hardest to use" part but we aren't getting the "better than everything else" part. Reward vs Difficulty. It is a little thing that is known as "Game Balance" and that is why people are angry. We like Jedi, and not all of us are sucking so hard as to be ineffective, I'm able to make it into the top 3 usually. The thing is I can make it into the top 3 with a Trooper, Shadow, Smuggler, etc way easier than I can do it as a Sentinel and that is a problem. As to why it needs to be worked out... Simple: In a Star Wars game it is okay for the Jedi and/or Sith to be better than non-Force Sensitive classes. In a Star Wars game it is okay for the Jedi and/or Sith to be equal to the non-Force Sensitive classes. In a Star Wars game it is not okay for the Jedi/Sith to be less than the non-Force Sensitive classes ever. All three of those statements are true. In TOR however that is clearly not the case. The Operative is a better melee class than the Jedi Sentinel. Save for the fact that the Operative has the same armor, survivability, and over five times as much utility. I couldnt explain it better , +1 /signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 As far as I can see it, there's only two reasons to play sentinel: Either you're a masochist or you're so in love with the concept you can't realise the issues. Give me a genuine reason to play sentinel that I can't counter. Because I like playing something that most people see as horrible just to be able to play it well, master it, then tell people that their opinion is wrong, because I can do it so why cant you ? It is definately a challenging class to play at first, but when you start getting the hang of it its a rewarding class to play and extremely effective in both PvE and PvP. So you can try and counter this all you want, but the only thing I have to say is that you have not yet gotten the hang of the class, because im doing just fine with my Sentinel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You see, the issue is simple really. You seem to have problems, I don't have any. So, if the class was as broken as some people claim it to be, we'd have troubles as well. The only thing I find disappointing at the moment is the lack of scaling of the offhand lightsaber. This is why you fail. To quote Yoda. You are saying, "Because I am really good at the class then the class must be fine." isn't really a sensible argument. See, I am good at the class too, I can overcome the shortcomings of the class because I have a very good binding scheme and I have very good situational awareness. This doesn't mean the class doesn't have issues. The lack of utility is a fact it is not based on a subjective opinion, we can clearly show other classes with comparable (if not better) DPS but having vastly more utility (see Imperial Agent Operative or Sith Inquisitor) options available to them. That is a statistically proven disparity. One that BioWare has ignored despite being told time and time and time and time and time and time and time again in beta. Quite frankly this not being addressed, or even discussed, by Zoeller makes me lose faith in him as a combat systems designer. Especially since he went on and commented on issues with Agents who are probably one of the most powerful classes in the game hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 So you can try and counter this all you want, but the only thing I have to say is that you have not yet gotten the hang of the class, because im doing just fine with my Sentinel. This is a fallacy. Just because you can do something doesn't make it inferior. If that is your counter then you need to bow out of this conversation because your argument isn't logical. I could probably take a ruddy $20 carbon steel ninjato from BudK and defeat you when you have a $15,000 ancestral Katana forged from the finest quality Japanese steel. That doesn't make my weapon any less inferior to yours. Thus, because I can make the Sentinel sing and defeat a poorly playing Imperial Operative doesn't make my class equal to their class. It makes me a very good player. The problems with the class still exist and like it or not we will get BioWare to address this eventually and shift the balance back to where it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 This is a fallacy. Just because you can do something doesn't make it inferior. If that is your counter then you need to bow out of this conversation because your argument isn't logical. I could probably take a ruddy $20 carbon steel ninjato from BudK and defeat you when you have a $15,000 ancestral Katana forged from the finest quality Japanese steel. That doesn't make my weapon any less inferior to yours. Thus, because I can make the Sentinel sing and defeat a poorly playing Imperial Operative doesn't make my class equal to their class. It makes me a very good player. The problems with the class still exist and like it or not we will get BioWare to address this eventually and shift the balance back to where it should be. It is impossible to balance the classes to be equal to whoever plays them. If a class works well with a good player playing it, the class is fine. They should be balancing the classes around people actually learning and improving around them, rather them dumbing the classes down for people not being bothered to learn. Would you not agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) It is impossible to balance the classes to be equal to whoever plays them. If a class works well with a good player playing it, the class is fine. They should be balancing the classes around people actually learning and improving around them, rather them dumbing the classes down for people not being bothered to learn. Would you not agree? No. No I don't agree. If a good player plays a Sentinel he will have the same performance as an average player playing any other class. If a great player plays a Sentinel he will have the same performance as a good player playing any other class. If, however, a good player is playing a Sentinel and a good player is playing any other class the Sentinel will lose. Giving the Sentinel the same utility as other classes (ranged instant non-channeled 3-5 second stun, ranged instant cast non-channeled medium to long duration mez, and some form of knock back or pull) would not "dumb the class down" it would put it on equal footing. Edit: Heck, instead of that I'd settle for something like the following: "Momentum" Cool Down: 40 seconds Effect: The Jedi Sentinel becomes immune to crowd controlling effects for 5 seconds. Edited December 23, 2011 by ProfessorWalsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghingis Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 No. No I don't agree. If a good player plays a Sentinel he will have the same performance as an average player playing any other class. If a great player plays a Sentinel he will have the same performance as a good player playing any other class. If, however, a good player is playing a Sentinel and a good player is playing any other class the Sentinel will lose. Giving the Sentinel the same utility as other classes (ranged instant non-channeled 3-5 second stun, ranged instant cast non-channeled medium to long duration mez, and some form of knock back or pull) would not "dumb the class down" it would put it on equal footing. Edit: Heck, instead of that I'd settle for something like the following: "Momentum" Cool Down: 40 seconds Effect: The Jedi Sentinel becomes immune to crowd controlling effects for 5 seconds. Thats the thing though, the way these kind of games work is like this: A bad sent gets beaten by a bad X. A good sent beats a bad X. A good sent gets beaten by a good X. This is where it changes though, for alot of the classes: A great sent beats a great X. The reason why it works like this for alot of the classes is the fact that when a class is played at a lesser potential, abilities are used at the wrong times etc and the class will be gimped because of this. If its played greatly on the other hand it just shines instead, being able to outplay other great people simply because of the sheer amount of abilities involved. In my opinion so far Sentinels are where they are supposed to be, and does not need a buff at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Thats the thing though, the way these kind of games work is like this: A bad sent gets beaten by a bad X. A good sent beats a bad X. A good sent gets beaten by a good X. This is where it changes though, for alot of the classes: A great sent beats a great X. The reason why it works like this for alot of the classes is the fact that when a class is played at a lesser potential, abilities are used at the wrong times etc and the class will be gimped because of this. If its played greatly on the other hand it just shines instead, being able to outplay other great people simply because of the sheer amount of abilities involved. In my opinion so far Sentinels are where they are supposed to be, and does not need a buff at all. That is your opinion and you are, of course, welcome to it. However, your opinion flies in the face of conventional logic and facts. Meaning that yes, a great Sentinel who does everything right can beat another class who doesn't. This, however doesn't mean the Sentinel isn't underpowered. In fact, your statement confirms that the class is underpowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toppins Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 That is your opinion and you are, of course, welcome to it. However, your opinion flies in the face of conventional logic and facts. Meaning that yes, a great Sentinel who does everything right can beat another class who doesn't. This, however doesn't mean the Sentinel isn't underpowered. In fact, your statement confirms that the class is underpowered. I think you misunderstand him. The key to his point is this: A bad Sentinel loses to a bad [inqusitor] A great Sentinel beats a great [inquisitor] The argument being that Sentinels are a higher skill-cap class. They are far easier to play badly, but if they are played well (excellent reflexes/resource management/tactics) you can squeeze far more out of them than any other class. I'm inclined to agree. But I'm open for debate on the subject, given a proper amount of time has passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfessorWalsh Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I think you misunderstand him. The key to his point is this: A bad Sentinel loses to a bad [inqusitor] A great Sentinel beats a great [inquisitor] The argument being that Sentinels are a higher skill-cap class. They are far easier to play badly, but if they are played well (excellent reflexes/resource management/tactics) you can squeeze far more out of them than any other class. I'm inclined to agree. But I'm open for debate on the subject, given a proper amount of time has passed. Incorrect. A good Sentinel breaks even against an average Inquisitor. A good Sentinel loses to a good Inquisitor. A great Sentinel breaks even with a good Inquisitor. A great Sentinel loses to a great Inquisitor. We tend to be better players because our class is harder. Any other class, if played properly, can and will stomp us into the ground if skill levels are equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamas Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Incorrect. A good Sentinel breaks even against an average Inquisitor. A good Sentinel loses to a good Inquisitor. A great Sentinel breaks even with a good Inquisitor. A great Sentinel loses to a great Inquisitor. We tend to be better players because our class is harder. Any other class, if played properly, can and will stomp us into the ground if skill levels are equal. More like this. A good sentinel will not beat a good Inquisitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avean Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) More like this. A good sentinel will not beat a good Inquisitor. Oh my, i guess i will do another pvp movie to show how powerful a sentinel truly is. A good sentinel can beat a good inquisitor, if he is a sorceror it depends on how you handle CC and how HE handle CC. If you get close to him the sorceror will fall in seconds. If he is assassin its a positional fight, you never are going to show your back to him (Backstab). If its a duel and he pops stealth, time his attack with your defensive cooldowns, use aoe attacks to drop him from stealth. Its all situational, a Sentinel is the most powerful class ive played, but its hectic and you need to be a fast thinker. I am used to this from Starcraft 2, so im used to fast apm on the keyboard No class in this game is OP though, but its all about situations and who gets the upper hand. Edited December 24, 2011 by Avean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood_Burger Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Better man than me. I believe you, but I'm not willing to keep trying. RIP to my sentinel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamzaBehoulve Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Better man than me. I believe you, but I'm not willing to keep trying. RIP to my sentinel. Don't want to be offensive, but considering on one of my servers, Sentinels outnumber every othery class 2:1 easily, I don't think you'll be missed. Most people enjoy the class or I wouldn't see so many playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldPush Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 No way am I replacing my sent.. I'll make an alt or two but I'm having too much fun with the class =] I'll trust in future balancepatches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood_Burger Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Don't want to be offensive, but considering on one of my servers, Sentinels outnumber every othery class 2:1 easily, I don't think you'll be missed. Most people enjoy the class or I wouldn't see so many playing it. This comment isn't even relevant. Most people think, "Oooh! 2 sabers! I want that!". They'd be happy with a chew toy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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