Stat priority/soft caps

[Skroting]

Was wondering which stats i should aim for (see what i did there?) as a gunnery commando.

power>surge(x%)>crit(x%)>alacrity?

Just a simple model like that, and with the different break points i should aim for.

Perhaps worth mentioning that i play mostly PvP.

 

If possible i would love one for PvP healing aswell : )

[ArchangelLBC]

Augment Aim, use the high secondary stat (unlettered) power mods (I think those are the agile ones), get accuracy to 100%, put the rest of your enhancement stats into surge, don't take crit or alacrity.

[haksilence]

Was wondering which stats i should aim for (see what i did there?) as a gunnery commando.

power>surge(x%)>crit(x%)>alacrity?

Just a simple model like that, and with the different break points i should aim for.

Perhaps worth mentioning that i play mostly PvP.

 

If possible i would love one for PvP healing aswell : )

Tech Accuracy (110%)>surge rating (around 250)>alacrity

And then for crit and power it will be either full power or a small amount of crit (something like 200-300 rating but not much)

Augment for aim.

[haksilence]

Augment Aim, use the high secondary stat (unlettered) power mods (I think those are the agile ones), get accuracy to 100%, put the rest of your enhancement stats into surge, don't take crit or alacrity.

 

Wrong. Alacrity is great for a gunnary commando and anything over 300 surge is just wasted. Never ever ever ever stack surge higher than 300 rating after 2.0

So the only other stat to put that budget into is alacrity.

[Loryk]

So as a DPS mando, should I be going "Aim > Accuracy (110%) > Surge (75%) > Power > Crit (30%) > Alacrity" as Noxxic says (of course with no more then 100% accuracy)?

[cashogy_reborn]

im saying ditch crit everywhere possible. power augs, power in every slot. crit is just awful, and using power augs over aim ones will leave you with ~2.5-3% less crit, and ~20 more bonus damage. crit is just a wash unless you go all out, and then you lose too much bonus damage.

 

as far as alacrity vs surge, alacrity is a stupid stat. you can already get like 5% from talents + the gunny stance. you are not going to able to take enough alacrity to make a difference.

 

im assuming this is talking about pve, but here is what the stat priority would be imo:

 

secondary: power. never crit unless you have no choice (implants/earpiece)

tertiary: accuracy to 100% > surge to 75% > w/e

[AMightyKnight]

Look here for detailed BIS Gunnery Commando:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/a8db4657-8b92-46c4-8e26-7d493cb012f0

 

Accuracy to 99.51% (395 Accuracy Rating), 111.69% Crit (0 Crit Rating), Surge to 71,08% (395 Surge Rating), no Alacrity.

 

Wrong. Alacrity is great for a gunnary commando and anything over 300 surge is just wasted. Never ever ever ever stack surge higher than 300 rating after 2.0

So the only other stat to put that budget into is alacrity.

Investing in alacrity will result in a overall DPS loss. Cell Charger doesn’t scale with your alacrity rating, therefore you will run into energy problems. One can manage that in PVP no doubt, but if you play operations as well, you just cant get into alacrity. Go 395 accuracy and 395 surge for BIS gear. You won’t reach the surge softcap with that.

power augs, power in every slot.

The myth will never die. Always use mainstat for for augments. You have a 9% bonus for your mainstat making it better than power.

Look here for details: http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=634393

[haksilence]

So as a DPS mando, should I be going "Aim > Accuracy (110%) > Surge (75%) > Power > Crit (30%) > Alacrity" as Noxxic says (of course with no more then 100% accuracy)?

 

Never ever listen to noxic. Every single piece of information they've given is drastically wrong. Follow the priority I gave

[haksilence]

Even without cell charger not scaling DPS mandos still utilize alacrity over surge past 250-300. Half life value for surge is 257 if memory serves me. Id need to go over my spreadsheet. But like I said having cell charger not scale is a minuscule amount of ammo lost which is easily remedied with one extra hammer shot every 45 seconds or so.

 

Taking alacrity over surge WILL result in a DPS increase.

As you and I have said Aug for aim. Never Aug for power as a commando.

[cashogy_reborn]

Look here for detailed BIS Gunnery Commando:

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/a8db4657-8b92-46c4-8e26-7d493cb012f0

 

Accuracy to 99.51% (395 Accuracy Rating), 111.69% Crit (0 Crit Rating), Surge to 71,08% (395 Surge Rating), no Alacrity.

 

Investing in alacrity will result in a overall DPS loss. Cell Charger doesn’t scale with your alacrity rating, therefore you will run into energy problems. One can manage that in PVP no doubt, but if you play operations as well, you just cant get into alacrity. Go 395 accuracy and 395 surge for BIS gear. You won’t reach the surge softcap with that.

The myth will never die. Always use mainstat for for augments. You have a 9% bonus for your mainstat making it better than power.

Look here for details: http://www.swtor.com/de/community/showthread.php?t=634393

 

the 9% does not make it better. it makes it close, but not better.

 

w/ the 9% you get .2 bonus damage per point of aim, vs .23 points of bonus damage for point of power. its not a myth.

 

you can trade 20 power for 2.5-3% crit. it is truly a wash statistically, so it comes down to personal preference. my personal preference is ill take the guaranteed damage increase vs the increase in RNG

Edited May 12, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[GeckoOBac]

The difference in energy "lost" due to alacrity is so small it is really not noticeable until you break over 10% alacrity (numbers I've seen on the pts were actually for 20% and still barely noticeable).

Cell charger definitely may be a problem, but with the amount of alacrity you can get right now, after capping accuracy, I don't think the difference is big enough to worry *yet*.

 

On the other hand, alacrity will help you regen faster during moments of forced downtime, making it more precious if you know when to burn (titan 6 launch phases come to mind, basically the whole dash'roode fight due to the frequent movement phases, operator 9 shielding phases, etc).

 

For that reason I disagree that removing alacrity completely is the right way right now. A somewhat balanced build with surge and alacrity is perfectly fine. The actual energy management issue may come back more evidently with higher stat pools (and thus new tiers of gears) where we could get alacrity high enough to actually interfere badly with cell charger (as I said, the energy loss inherent to alacrity is so small it can't really be noticed until very high amounts)

[AMightyKnight]

Even without cell charger not scaling DPS mandos still utilize alacrity over surge past 250-300. Half life value for surge is 257 if memory serves me. Id need to go over my spreadsheet. But like I said having cell charger not scale is a minuscule amount of ammo lost which is easily remedied with one extra hammer shot every 45 seconds or so.

Taking alacrity over surge WILL result in a DPS increase.

You're mistaken. 2.0 changed the diminishing return scale of surge (and of jsut everything else). You wont hit any soft caps with our present BIS gear if you bring accuracy to 100%. As said, a BIS build gives you 395 points to invest into either alacrity or surge. If you go entirely into surge you’ll get 71,08% crit multiplier. That’s not close to the soft cap of around 75%.

Taking alacrity over surge will always result in a overall dps loss. Again, if your goal is ultrashort burst damage for PVP gameplay, go for it if it fits your playstyle. If you want to do operations as well, go entirely surge. Everything else kills your damage over time in any boss fight.

If you are interested in the details, you should check out Kerens Mercenary simulation spreadsheet from mmo-mechanics.com. You can run literally thousands of simulated fights with any gear you want. The numbers cleary show that no alacrity is the route to take.

the 9% does not make it better. it makes it close, but not better.

 

w/ the 9% you get .2 bonus damage per point of aim, vs .23 points of bonus damage for point of power. its not a myth.

you can trade 20 power for 2.5-3% crit. it is truly a wash statistically, so it comes down to personal preference. my personal preference is ill take the guaranteed damage increase vs the increase in RNG

I agree that it is statistically insignificant. As are most issuses we are debating here when it comes to min maxing.

I didn’t want to imply that aim gives you more bonus damage than power. Due to the bonus to crit however it will – on average - result in a higher dps. You wont see this in an actual fight, but if you simulate thousands of fights with Kerens spreadsheet you can see the difference.

 

The difference in energy "lost" due to alacrity is so small it is really not noticeable until you break over 10% alacrity (numbers I've seen on the pts were actually for 20% and still barely noticeable).

Cell charger definitely may be a problem, but with the amount of alacrity you can get right now, after capping accuracy, I don't think the difference is big enough to worry *yet*.

Energy management is tight in PVE. Scaling alacrity will result in overall dps loss since you are forced to use rapdis shots far more often.

But more importantly, scaling alacrity means less surge (or accuracy). Thats a big hit to you dps, no way around it.

[GeckoOBac]

Energy management is tight in PVE. Scaling alacrity will result in overall dps loss since you are forced to use rapdis shots far more often.

But more importantly, scaling alacrity means less surge (or accuracy). Thats a big hit to you dps, no way around it.

 

The energy management is not THAT strict in pve. Alacrity is not going to make you suddenly go completely out of ammo unless you botch stuff up impressively (and then again, it would not be alacrity's fault).

The value of surge is also strictly related to that of crit. So far, all stuff I've seen points heavily toward crit being close to useless for commandos, with most simulations showing full power builds being slightly ahead (though ofc we are talking about tens of DPS at most).

 

This decreases the value of surge, while it does nothing for the value of alacrity, which does indeed increase dps and the only reason we're considering whether to take it or not is how it reacts with fixed cooldowns and issues in energy management (and again, this case is special for the commando as it's the only class that I'm aware of that has a mechanic like cell charger instead of a simple addition to the base energy regen, scoundrels and sharpshooter slingers come to mind in that regard).

 

Also I will repeat this: all the simulations will *not* be able to account for the regen during the fairly frequent downtimes. As much as I'd love the models to be perfect, there is very often the tendency to forget that the models are just simplifications of the real, complex nature they're trying to explain. Models are perfect to get results from a dummy fight, but the real combat situations in ops (which is what we are worried about. No matter how hard we try, we won't defeat the dummy) are different and must be taken into account.

[cashogy_reborn]

surge is still useful. even with no additional crit rating in your build, you are going to have ~20% crit. which means you are still going to see a fair number of crits. you want to take as much surge as you can so that when you do crit, you hit like a freight train.

 

alacrity in your gear does not scale well enough to take. you need 400-500 alacrity to get the GCD down just .3s, and that is in conjunction with the alacrity we can get from talents.

 

would you rather have 400 Surge, which puts you at ~73% surge rating (meaning your crits will hit 23% harder) or 400 alacrity, which means you get 4 GCDs for every normal 3 GCDs. now i have no actual numbers to back this up, but im pretty sure youre going to see greater DPS with the Surge than with the Alacrity.

[AMightyKnight]

@GeckOBac

Nothing we discuss here is THAT severe. As things are now one could probably clear S&V HC with a full crit/alacrity Commando. It just doesn’t matter much what you do. However if you want to get the max achievable DPS out of your Commando, some things work and some don’t. As said, I agree that it doesn’t matter much and you wont ruin your char if have some alacrity gear. Its just not the optimal solution.

The value of surge is strictly related to crit. However, as things are now, if you invest zero points in crit, surge is still better than alacrity.

I have no idea how alacrity works with other classes. I only raid with Commandos, other classes might very well be able to use alacrity effectively.

Regarding downtime: You shouldn’t need it in the first place. If you need every second of the down time to regen your energy you have big issues with your energy management. And every downtime which is longer than a couple of second will make alacrity completely irrelevant.

[ArchangelLBC]

the 9% does not make it better. it makes it close, but not better.

 

w/ the 9% you get .2 bonus damage per point of aim, vs .23 points of bonus damage for point of power. its not a myth.

 

you can trade 20 power for 2.5-3% crit. it is truly a wash statistically, so it comes down to personal preference. my personal preference is ill take the guaranteed damage increase vs the increase in RNG

 

No those are the numbers before the 9% aim bonus. After the aim bonus, and sage buff, you're getting .228 bonus damage per point of aim. So you're trading 2.5-3% crit for less than one bonus damage.

 

Looking purely at augments, you can now get 448 Aim or 448 power from augments. If you augment power this will be an increase of 103.04 Bonus Damage. If you augment aim this will be an increase of 102.144 Bonus Damage.

 

20 Bonus damage vs 2.5% Crit may be a wash. 0.896 Bonus damage vs 2.5% crit is an obvious choice.

 

Wrong. Alacrity is great for a gunnary commando and anything over 300 surge is just wasted. Never ever ever ever stack surge higher than 300 rating after 2.0

So the only other stat to put that budget into is alacrity.

 

 

You have any math to back that up? 300 no longer gets us to the softcap any more really. Moreover, even if you were getting much less of an increase adding points of surge over the points you were adding before, that doesn't necessarily mean you are getting less of a DPS increase than an equivalent amount of alacrity. You may know that but frankly your claim came with absolutely no backup whatsoever.

[GeckoOBac]

The value of surge is strictly related to crit. However, as things are now, if you invest zero points in crit, surge is still better than alacrity.

I'd like to see some math supporting this cause it doesn't seem accurate (but I may ofc be wrong)

 

Regarding downtime: You shouldn’t need it in the first place. If you need every second of the down time to regen your energy you have big issues with your energy management. And every downtime which is longer than a couple of second will make alacrity completely irrelevant.

 

Nope you don't need it, but that's not what I meant: I said that with the frequent downtimes you can exploit the slight boost in regen due to alacrity to burn harder before a known downtime, as the added regen will make it easier to recover even from the lower tiers of regeneration.

[ArchangelLBC]

I find the regen we should already be getting combined with the downtimes you are talking about are more than sufficient to come back from lower tier regen rates in both those fights and once you start the next cycle at full ammo, any additional regen is wasted.

[AMightyKnight]

I'd like to see some math supporting this cause it doesn't seem accurate (but I may ofc be wrong) [/Quote]

I'm not much into math, i'm repeating what other who like that sort fo thing wrote about the hole thing.

But download KErens Spreadsheet and run the numbers yourself if you are interested.

 

 

Nope you don't need it, but that's not what I meant: I said that with the frequent downtimes you can exploit the slight boost in regen due to alacrity to burn harder before a known downtime, as the added regen will make it easier to recover even from the lower tiers of regeneration.

Whats a frequent downtime to you? If i look at S&V i see no good opportunities for alacrity. First Boss has no downtime when youre not beamed into the desert. And if it happens to you the effective downtime is so long it doesnt matter if you have alacrity or not.

The same goes for the second boss. There are frequent downtimes but they are so long you can sit behind the rocks completely empty and you would still regenerate more than enough to continue the fight.

Third Boss has no downtime the way we play it. The snipers on the wall are killed by our two Sentinels. Dito fourth boss. The Fifth Boss has downtime, especially in the last phase. The sixth boss has no downtime. Just straight up dps. And the final boss has no siginifcant downtime that would be short enough for alacrity to matter.

 

You probably have more downtime in TFB HC, but to be honest, the DPS requirement is so loughable, you could clear it with crit and alacrity for sure.

[cashogy_reborn]

No those are the numbers before the 9% aim bonus. After the aim bonus, and sage buff, you're getting .228 bonus damage per point of aim. So you're trading 2.5-3% crit for less than one bonus damage.

 

Looking purely at augments, you can now get 448 Aim or 448 power from augments. If you augment power this will be an increase of 103.04 Bonus Damage. If you augment aim this will be an increase of 102.144 Bonus Damage.

 

20 Bonus damage vs 2.5% Crit may be a wash. 0.896 Bonus damage vs 2.5% crit is an obvious choice.

 

with all 4 buffs, ive got 2309 aim, which gives 461.7 bonus damage. 461.7/2309 =.2

 

i dont think the 9% changes the amount of bonus damage per point of aim; its locked in at .2

however, the 9% talent and 5% buff change the amount each aug gives. so 32 aim is actually 32*1.14 = 36.48 which is 36.48*.2 = 7.296 bonus damage per aug. 14 augs = 102.14

vs overkill which gives 32*.23 = 7.36 bonus damage per aug. 14 augs = 103.04

 

basically the same i guess, like you said. hmm, seems i have wasted a significant amount of creds. bummer lol

 

edit: durr i did different math but got the same numbers as you rofl

Edited May 15, 2013 by cashogy_reborn

[ArchangelLBC]

with all 4 buffs, ive got 2309 aim, which gives 461.7 bonus damage. 461.7/2309 =.2

 

i dont think the 9% changes the amount of bonus damage per point of aim; its locked in at .2

however, the 9% talent and 5% buff change the amount each aug gives. so 32 aim is actually 32*1.14 = 36.48 which is 36.48*.2 = 7.296 bonus damage per aug. 14 augs = 102.14

vs overkill which gives 32*.23 = 7.36 bonus damage per aug. 14 augs = 103.04

 

basically the same i guess, like you said. hmm, seems i have wasted a significant amount of creds. bummer lol

 

edit: durr i did different math but got the same numbers as you rofl

 

 

Yeah I phrased that poorly. Effectively every stat point of aim you get adds .228 Bonus Damage. This is because every point of aim you add is actually 1.14 points of aim from having the sage buff and talent. You are correct that you still get .2 Bonus damage per point of aim.

 

Your final conclusions are correct though =) As you see, considering every point of aim from gear as .228 bonus damage, while not factually quite accurate, is nevertheless useful for these kinds of calculations (basically you skip the step of figuring out how much aim you actually have).

 

Anyway, my bad on being a bit unclear on how I phrased it. I've just been thinking 1 aim = .228 bonus damage from so long for practicality that I just kind of rattled that off.

[cashogy_reborn]

just if anyone is wondering, with a full set of 32/20 aim augs, my crit increased 1.3%. i really hate this new DR........

[Sylvane]

In BiS gear you want 3327 aim, 395 accuracy rating, 395 surge rating, 0 crit/alacrity rating, and 1423 power for the optimal set up.

[cashogy_reborn]

In BiS gear you want 3327 aim, 395 accuracy rating, 395 surge rating, 0 crit/alacrity rating, and 1423 power for the optimal set up.

 

for PvE. PvP is different.

 

 

ive tried replacing 2 sets of power/surge mod/enh for crit/surge. moved my crit from 21.xx to 24.xx and my power from 755 to 719. could just be placebo effect, but i *felt* like i was getting better burst in PvP. maybe im crazy. sucks having such low crit, no crit = no burst.

[Sylvane]

for PvE. PvP is different.

 

 

ive tried replacing 2 sets of power/surge mod/enh for crit/surge. moved my crit from 21.xx to 24.xx and my power from 755 to 719. could just be placebo effect, but i *felt* like i was getting better burst in PvP. maybe im crazy. sucks having such low crit, no crit = no burst.

 

Yeah i didnt see the pvp part that was my bad, wasnt paying attention.