High APM = hard to play, low APM = easier to play?

[paowee]

Is this generally true? We can rephrase it too to something like.. High APM = steeper learning curve compared to a low APM class. What AC did you enjoy playing despite how "easy" or "hard" it is o play? And also which spec do you think has the highest APM requirements in the game right now?

[Saferai]

High apm in this game is in the mid 40s, thats like silver league in any rts game. The skill cap in an mmo is far too low for apm to matter truthfully.

[paowee]

I see

[KeyboardNinja]

Is this generally true? We can rephrase it too to something like.. High APM = steeper learning curve compared to a low APM class. What AC did you enjoy playing despite how "easy" or "hard" it is o play? And also which spec do you think has the highest APM requirements in the game right now?

 

The highest APM spec in the game is Combat Sentinel/Carnage Marauder. There, you're basically talking about an APM in the high 40s, sometimes even low 50s. Post-2.0 Watchman/Annihilation is pretty high too (low 40s). While it can feel a bit frenetic to play Combat/Carnage, I don't think it's particularly hard. By comparison, Balance Shadows/Madness Assassins pre-2.0 had the most complex priority queue in the game by a wide margin and were very difficult to play well, but an APM only in the high 30s. Hybrid Gunslingers/Snipers have a fairly straightforward priority queue, but a lot of split-second decisions and an absurdly punishing energy mechanic. I would consider my Hybrid Sniper to be the most difficult of all my characters to play, but my APM is generally in the low 30s.

 

Honestly, I don't think there's much of a correlation between APM and difficulty in this game. I use APM primarily as a metric to tell if a DPS of a known spec is making timing mistakes or delaying abilities. If I know a spec, I know what it's APM *should* be on a certain fight, and so I can make judgements from there. APM isn't even remotely useful comparing *between* specs.

[ZeroPlus]

What is "APM" in this context?

 

(Only APM I know is Advanced Power Management. )

[Wrthlessnoob]

What is "APM" in this context?

 

(Only APM I know is Advanced Power Management. )

 

Actions per minute

[Infalliable]

Apm is really just a metric of how many long cast time abilities the class has (unless your really terrible). The gcd is long enough apm isn't a useful metric of a player or class. It's not like an rts where your doing multiple things per second.

 

Prior to 2.0, you were pretty much limited to about 40 apm based on the gcd, plus a couple off gcd skills added in. So a max of around 45. That's fairly pedestrian when you're talking about gaming, and a fraction of what good Starcraft players do. 2.0 upped the potential max for this game, but nobody stacks alacrity that much.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Infalliable

[Saferai]

To give you an idea for comparison in sc/sc2 EAPM (effective apm, ie spamming not counting) using real time and not the slighlty faster game time averages from 200-250 at the professional level with the very high players approaching 300. Making the correct decision for your upcoming gcd is fairly easy in the 1.3-1.7 gcd window alacrity and lag depending.

 

Rogue in WoW has a 1 second GCD. At times like the end of WotLK where the stat budget was super inflated with tons of haste being available playing a mut rogue with a sub 1 second gcd was very rewarding. I always wished MMOs would move towards a 1 second gcd with more abilities off the GCD to bring up the skill cap for players. Sadly it seems the industry standard is the exact opposite =/

[Uvirith]

apm in mmo´s is not much of an issue, because of the global cooldown. if youre able to press one button every 1,5 seconds while moving your character, youre pretty much on the highest end of the spectrum

[ZeroPlus]

Actions per minute!

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain. This whole conversation suddenly made a lot more sense.

[Svii]

Honestly, I don't think there's much of a correlation between APM and difficulty in this game. I use APM primarily as a metric to tell if a DPS of a known spec is making timing mistakes or delaying abilities. If I know a spec, I know what it's APM *should* be on a certain fight, and so I can make judgements from there. APM isn't even remotely useful comparing *between* specs.

 

Exactly. I use APM to compare my own parses, same boss and spec. I'm usually between 35-40 APM on my Sniper (MM) and have looked at other classes like Mercs/Sorcs and we can't really compare directly, I'm roughly 5 APM above these two. I think taking cover counts as an Action as well and that happens many times per minute, so that inflates the number I guess.

[Frog_brains]

I would think that operative would have the highest APM, if your using the poision tree, you have only 1 action that's channeled and that's from cover. The rest of the skill set is all instant cast, and with the alacrity boost now affecting the GCD it should be an even higher rate.

[grallmate]

Most classes are bounded for APM by the GCD which gives a soft cap of 40 APM. Off the GCD abilities (such as Riposte, Precision Slash, Shoulder Cannon and most CDs) and abilities which reduce the GCD (Ataru form's Zen, Mental Alacrity) push that cap a little higher. Comparatively, specs that rely on channels and casts longer than the GCD (Balance Sage, Dirty Fighting Gunslinger) will have lower APM. Alacrity affects this but the difference isn't noticeable unless you stack a reasonable amount.

 

Highest APM is Guardian Tank thanks largely to Riposte (I average in the low to mid 50s) followed by Combat Sentinel thanks to Ataru's Zen and Precision Slash (I average in the high 40s).

 

EDIT: I don't think APM is a great measure of difficulty but it is useful for comparing performance within a spec. For example an Assasult Vanguard should be maintaining 38-30 APM without much difficulty while Balance Sage's should be closer to 30 APM. Personally, I find monitoring procs while maintaining high situational awareness to be more difficult than hitting more buttons so APM isn't a great indicator of difficulty, especially since most of my classes are higher APM but lower or more obvious (such as ability reset) proc classes.

Edited April 28, 2013 by grallmate

[ML_DoubleTap]

I agree w/ other folks that from class to class it's not a real good judge. I think it can be useful when comparing your own logs to each other, especially in heavy movement fights to see where you can improve. But, that's probably about where the utility stops.

[paowee]

I agree with most you guys... I use it too to compare parses of the same class/spec but that is about it.

 

Anyway.. i'd like to nominate Saboteur Slingers and Engi Snipers as the highest APM spec

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/220044/time/1368250989/1368251289/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/220068/time/1368253041/1368253341/0/Damage+Dealt

Edited May 10, 2013 by paowee

[grallmate]

I agree with most you guys... I use it too to compare parses of the same class/spec but that is about it.

 

Anyway.. i'd like to nominate Saboteur Slingers and Engi Snipers as the highest APM spec

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/220044/time/1368250989/1368251289/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/220068/time/1368253041/1368253341/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Looking at those parses I'd say they're more to do with how TorParse registers the Scatter Bombs w.r.t APM. It seems to view each individual Scatter Bomb as an individual ability. As such, it's counting each Covered Escape as 5 abilities and artificially inflating your APM. This is a great example of why APM is only useful for comparing within a class an spec and not cross class.

[paowee]

Looking at those parses I'd say they're more to do with how TorParse registers the Scatter Bombs w.r.t APM. It seems to view each individual Scatter Bomb as an individual ability. As such, it's counting each Covered Escape as 5 abilities and artificially inflating your APM. This is a great example of why APM is only useful for comparing within a class an spec and not cross class.

 

How were you able to see how torparse registers scatter bombs? just out of curiosity.

Edited May 13, 2013 by paowee

[grallmate]

How were you able to see how torparse registers scatter bombs? just out of curiosity.

 

It's an educated guess. Since I know for a fact you don't have 20 abilities a minute that are off the GCD (Guardians are the highest at ~12 + CDs) and it appears as though other specs and classes only get one ability activation for AoEs or DoTs so it wasn't a ticking ability being counted multiple times and you don't have enough alacrity to bring your GCD down to 1s. After ruling out the other options, Scatter Bombs is really the only difference between Engi and other specs so I counted the number of Scatter Bombs per minute and its about 17 on average. Then thinking about how I would implement the ability as a programmer it makes sense: each bomb is considered a separate ability since a target could be affected by 1 but not the other 4. It is essentially placing 5 discrete ground targeted AoEs.

 

58 - 17 = 41 which is right about where I'd expect you to be for APM unless you had lots of off the GCD abilities or GCD reductions such as Combat Sentinel and Defence Guardian. Now that isn't proof, but its a strong enough correlation to draw the conclusion that TorParse is registering each Scatter Bomb as a separate ability.

[paowee]

It's an educated guess. Since I know for a fact you don't have 20 abilities a minute that are off the GCD (Guardians are the highest at ~12 + CDs) and it appears as though other specs and classes only get one ability activation for AoEs or DoTs so it wasn't a ticking ability being counted multiple times and you don't have enough alacrity to bring your GCD down to 1s. After ruling out the other options, Scatter Bombs is really the only difference between Engi and other specs so I counted the number of Scatter Bombs per minute and its about 17 on average. Then thinking about how I would implement the ability as a programmer it makes sense: each bomb is considered a separate ability since a target could be affected by 1 but not the other 4. It is essentially placing 5 discrete ground targeted AoEs.

 

58 - 17 = 41 which is right about where I'd expect you to be for APM unless you had lots of off the GCD abilities or GCD reductions such as Combat Sentinel and Defence Guardian. Now that isn't proof, but its a strong enough correlation to draw the conclusion that TorParse is registering each Scatter Bomb as a separate ability.

 

Nice insight! Ima have to look into this myself

[HayleyR]

Would you then be able to explain my APM's here?

 

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/391313/1/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/395356/30/0/Damage+Dealt

 

If you can explain it to me that'd be great

 

Ar'lah - Watchman Sentinel, 36/7/3 72's. The Ebon Hawk. - oh, and I have NO alacrity mods in my gear. I've been swapping them out for Accuracy.

Edited August 26, 2013 by HayleyR

[Deviltreh]

actions per minute

 

lol apm in a game that has action limit - gcd.

 

 

Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiilll

Edited August 27, 2013 by Deviltreh

[AlrikFassbauer]

Totally off-topic : I just wondered how high the APM of real-life humans is ... ? Edited August 27, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Luckeyduckey]

lol apm in a game that has action limit - gcd.

 

 

Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiilll

 

Uhm, yes. APM matters in all MMOs, because there's such thing as latency, and alacrity. But, by your post, I doubt you'll care, or even understand.

[Luckeyduckey]

Would you then be able to explain my APM's here?

 

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/391313/1/0/Damage+Dealt

http://www.torparse.com/a/395356/30/0/Damage+Dealt

 

If you can explain it to me that'd be great

 

Ar'lah - Watchman Sentinel, 36/7/3 72's. The Ebon Hawk. - oh, and I have NO alacrity mods in my gear. I've been swapping them out for Accuracy.

 

49 APM, in the overview tab. As said, Watchmen has a very high APM, often hammering on GCDs after each other. The damage of the parse is low, but that's a good APM. Once you gear up, you'll see a large DPS increase, based on the APM.

[oofalong]

FYI, TORParse counts APM as every time "...character ACTIVATES xxxx..." this includes, adrenals, relics, buffs (such as laze target, bloodthirst, recklessness, etc.) and any ability off of the GCD (such as deadly saber, interrupts, etc.) as well as attacks. For the most part, people striving for top parses are employing every opportunity to maximize their damage so APM can serve as a proxy for a spec's/AC's required click-level. The higher APM the more your DPS will suffer from lag or delayed reactions.

 

For example, Carnage/Combat has the highest APM so if you have significant lag or can't click fast enough you will never be able to achieve the best DPS. And in fact, you will experience a greater DPS deficit than if you player Sniper/Slinger. In other words, a delay of 0.05s between actions will be more significant as you need many more actions to be the best.